Training like a bodybuilder with gymnastic exercises

[Joshua Naterman]

Read his website. One, he's not very tall and is pretty big for his height. 5'9" according to his official website. http://www.calisthenicskingz.net/george_bio.htm

He does a lot of higher volume work, which absolutely leads to more size than focusing on low volume higher intensity work. He has also been doing this stuff for over a decade and seems to have done a good job at pacing his development since he keeps getting stronger. It takes a long time for ANYONE to build a body like that. Hit also has a very high protein, very low carb diet which also serves to increase metabolism(sort of, you induce a small "calorie deficit" when you digest protein, research on google) and keep his water weight down. Many people have found this sort of diet allows them to stay much leaner as well. I do not know what he was like when he started, but he has certainly sculpted a massively powerful and capable physique. I am impressed by him. 5-6 years down the line he will be impressed by ME.

Hit has shown what dedication and consistency can accomplish.

[Rafael David]

By the way, how do you think Hitman is so muscular? I mean he does some things that probably shouldn't give that much muscle, like regular pushups on the floor, regular dips, pulls chins, etc. and I don't get how he's so muscular.

I did this for several months last year, without any special diet (only balanced and healthy) and gained 33lbs of pure muscle. This year I started strength training (BtGB) and also had good results in hypertrophy, but in strength were impressive ... Currently, no more training for hypertrophy, it is now the strength and health, size for me is nothing, important is what you can do, the size in many cases only serves to inflate the ego ... if you train to get big you'll be bigger, if you train to become strong will become stronger. BUT if you train to become strong can make it big too.

[Joshua Naterman]

Nice! Those are impressive results. As you say, targeted training produces targeted results.

Keep in mind that guys like you and I may gain muscle faster than some other people, but the basics don't change much.

Did you find that you had big increases in strength during those few months or was it more of a cosmetic change? Obviously I would think that you had gotten quite a bit stronger with that much gain, but I am curious about the strength gains you made with that training versus the gains you've had with your more strength-oriented training.

[Rafael David]

Slizz, Last year when I trained for hypertrophy few times I went to the gym with my friends and my bench press was 50kg (note that I just did pushups), currently (with strength training) is 84kg for 3 reps. Just to illustrate...

[Neal Winkler]

Mikael, how much did you weight before you gained the 33 pounds of muscle? What is your height?

Deft,

Sliz is talking about something similar to this...

7p-NQRydSKQ

[Rafael David]

I'm 169cm and 63kg.

[ASForum]

Lots of info Bro - SLIZZARD.. Maybe you missed this post. I am just curious if you could guide a bit?

Slizz.. My general KillRoy derived workout sets range from 3x5 to 5x5 depending on the exercise at hand. I am guessing this is perfect for BtGB and Strength.

I remember reading somewhere on the forums (cant find it now) about different workout/ rep / ranges...going from...

Strength > Strength-Hypertrophy > Hypertrophy > Etc .... > Endurance.

How could I vary / change / add ...different Rep/set variation to the above to boost hypertrophy for certain muscles.

Esp... I'd like more hypertrophy on my arms. Is the above 3x5 to 5x5 doing dip / pushup / pull up / variations good enough for hypertrophy or should I add something to it... ?

PS: Arms have gotten skinny & lean.. strong but skinny... I prefer doing bodyweight exercises... so any recommendations on the set / rep variation.... If not, then would you suggest some bodyweight / weights / Curls exercises on that front?

[ASForum]

By the way, how do you think Hitman is so muscular? I mean he does some things that probably shouldn't give that much muscle, like regular pushups on the floor, regular dips, pulls chins, etc. and I don't get how he's so muscular.

I did this for several months last year, without any special diet (only balanced and healthy) and gained 33lbs of pure muscle. This year I started strength training (BtGB) and also had good results in hypertrophy, but in strength were impressive ... Currently, no more training for hypertrophy, it is now the strength and health, size for me is nothing, important is what you can do, the size in many cases only serves to inflate the ego ... if you train to get big you'll be bigger, if you train to become strong will become stronger. BUT if you train to become strong can make it big too.

Nice! Those are impressive results. As you say, targeted training produces targeted results.

Keep in mind that guys like you and I may gain muscle faster than some other people, but the basics don't change much.

Did you find that you had big increases in strength during those few months or was it more of a cosmetic change? Obviously I would think that you had gotten quite a bit stronger with that much gain, but I am curious about the strength gains you made with that training versus the gains you've had with your more strength-oriented training.

I am curious to know as well. I lost a bunch of my size in the last year so.. for several reasons of course. I feel stronger in some ways but I'd like to AUGMENT ..BtGB strength training as much as possible with some HYPERTROPHY for my SKINNY arms.. .. as much as possible with CALISTHENICS / BODYWEIGHT.. or BtGB variations in other rep/set schemes?

I'd love some advise in that direction.

[Deft-Mastery]

There's just 1 more thing:

Coach said that the best programming he found was to workout Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday, but I just noticed he said this for the statics, I don't know if this was for your main workouts/working out too, so I just wanted to clarify if this goes for working out as well.

[Deft-Mastery]

Deft,

Sliz is talking about something similar to this...

7p-NQRydSKQ

So it's like the second exercise this guy does:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSXiPJbwASE

I tried that once and I think I did it wrong, because it sucked, I felt nothing in the biceps. I didn't like the idea that your hands need to be rolling and moving around, that's a good recipe for calluses and stuff like that.

But any info on that exercise would be welcomed.

[Joshua Naterman]

OK, as for the biceps: On that video the very first exercise is a half-assed version of what should be done. ALWAYS go to full extension and make sure to twist the hands hard at the top of the rep to flex the biceps as hard as you can. The angle shown is extremely easy, and is an excellent place to start. As your body gets more horizontal you will be working harder. If you get to where you are doing 5-10 proper reps with your feet at the same level as the rings, you're buffer than I am as of right now! There should be absolutely no slipping of the hands.

As a side note, if you're worried about calluses you need to not be training at all, because if you are training hard with weights, rings, or even doing regular manual labor you're going to have calluses. That's part of being a manly man. They don't have to be ugly half-ripped calluses, that's just dumb and shows poor grip technique, but they're going to be there.

As for the frequency question:

Coach's guys work 4 days a week for the most part. When getting ready for competitions they will do a bit more, but that is for technical refinement and not conditioning. At least, that's my understanding. You also have to realize that SOME people work better with multiple workouts per day on hard days and more days of lower intensity work, which is what is working best for Dillon. In that case you'd probably want to do two WOD days per week with two WODs done each WOD day, with the WODs separated by 4-6 hours at least. You'd have two days where you do your FSP warm up and active recovery, and the three active recovery only days.

Sometimes it even helps to follow one template like that for a few months and then switch . Do what works for you. Sometimes that means altering the training schedule occasionally, but keep in mind that this is usually only the case with people who are very highly trained. The WOD schedule did great for almost 4 years for Dillon before he started stalling out. Now he has switched to a 2 day per week heavy training schedule, and the rest of the week he does capoeira, some equilibre and runs a training program. There are others who continue to excel with the 4 days per week. Dillon may even find that after a few months of great results he needs to switch back to more frequent training for a while to keep moving forward, but then again he may keep getting good results with his new schedule for years. This is not something for anyone who only has a year or two of training to worry about.

Concerning additional training: If you are doing the WODs correctly you should have NO problem being able to do 2-3 lowish volume weight workouts with no problem each week. As a GYMNAST this may not be ideal (and I am not sure that this is the case), but for gymnastic fitness enthusiasts like us I think this would be smart. That could be kettlebells, barbells, weighted dips/pull ups, etc. I'd keep volume fairly low and not go crazy or try to do a set to failure, but I'd work fairly hard for those sets.

I personally think that full ROM squats, standing overhead press, thick BB curls and weighted pull/chin ups and dips are a brilliant idea. I am just getting back to where I can start adding some of this on to the gymnastic bodies WOD core, which I DO think should be the core of the program. This weighted stuff should only be an enhancer. I'm thinking of having one day with 1-2 sets of these, one day with some heavier kettlebell work like some odd lifts and some heavy snatches and one O-lifting day. All of these days will be fairly low volume compared to a focused workout with those tools, but will be very stimulating. I think that will create a powerful program.

[Deft-Mastery]

OK, as for the biceps: On that video the very first exercise is a half-assed version of what should be done. ALWAYS go to full extension and make sure to twist the hands hard at the top of the rep to flex the biceps as hard as you can. The angle shown is extremely easy, and is an excellent place to start. As your body gets more horizontal you will be working harder. If you get to where you are doing 5-10 proper reps with your feet at the same level as the rings, you're buffer than I am as of right now!

As a side note, if you're worried about calluses you need to not be training at all, because if you are training hard with weights, rings, or even doing regular manual labor you're going to have calluses. That's part of being a manly man. They don't have to be ugly half-ripped calluses, that's just dumb and shows poor grip technique, but they're going to be there.

Did you see the video I posted?

As for the calluses, yes of course I do have some but I don't want anything like what you said, ugly half-ripped and like a friking rock and stuff, that's why I wear gloves when I do any pulling stuff. Getting them sore and over-callused is unnecessary and actually gets in the way of my training.

There should be absolutely no slipping of the hands.

What do you mean here?

As for the frequency question:

Coach's guys work 4 days a week for the most part. When getting ready for competitions they will do a bit more, but that is for technical refinement and not conditioning. At least, that's my understanding. You also have to realize that SOME people work better with multiple workouts per day on hard days and more days of lower intensity work, which is what is working best for Dillon. In that case you'd probably want to do two WOD days per week with two WODs done each WOD day, with the WODs separated by 4-6 hours at least. You'd have two days where you do your FSP warm up and active recovery, and the three active recovery only days.

Sometimes it even helps to follow one template like that for a few months and then switch . Do what works for you. Sometimes that means altering the training schedule occasionally, but keep in mind that this is usually only the case with people who are very highly trained. The WOD schedule did great for almost 4 years for Dillon before he started stalling out. Now he has switched to a 2 day per week heavy training schedule, and the rest of the week he does capoeira, some equilibre and runs a training program. There are others who continue to excel with the 4 days per week. Dillon may even find that after a few months of great results he needs to switch back to more frequent training for a while to keep moving forward, but then again he may keep getting good results with his new schedule for years. This is not something for anyone who only has a year or two of training to worry about.

Concerning additional training: If you are doing the WODs correctly you should have NO problem being able to do 2-3 lowish volume weight workouts with no problem each week. As a GYMNAST this may not be ideal (and I am not sure that this is the case), but for gymnastic fitness enthusiasts like us I think this would be smart. That could be kettlebells, barbells, weighted dips/pull ups, etc. I'd keep volume fairly low and not go crazy or try to do a set to failure, but I'd work fairly hard for those sets.

I personally think that full ROM squats, standing overhead press, thick BB curls and weighted pull/chin ups and dips are a brilliant idea. I am just getting back to where I can start adding some of this on to the gymnastic bodies WOD core, which I DO think should be the core of the program. This weighted stuff should only be an enhancer. I'm thinking of having one day with 1-2 sets of these, one day with some heavier kettlebell work like some odd lifts and some heavy snatches and one O-lifting day. All of these days will be fairly low volume compared to a focused workout with those tools, but will be very stimulating. I think that will create a powerful program.

Ok.

[Joshua Naterman]

Instead of wearing gloves when you do pulling, just use your fingers unless it is multi-plane or a muscle up. Not only will you not get calluses if you do it right but your hands and wrists will get very strong.

Yea, that video you posted is the same thing. That angle is very, very easy which is why you probably didn't feel it at all. As you make your body more horizontal you will all of a sudden say %#*@#!!!!!! when you hit the angle you SHOULD be at. Try it with your feet on the floor and your shoulders around 2-3 feet off the floor with straight arms. Make sure to twist your wrists as you get your hands close to your head, you'll feel which way you need to twist. Pinkies towards forehead!

[Joshua Naterman]

Crash: did you see my post? I put up a bunch of what you wanted to know 2-3 posts up from here, but let me expand a little: 5x5 isn't enough for gaining size specifically. You're going to want to be in the 3-5x7-10 range, preferably with a 113, 212 or 213 tempo. You could also experiment with 311, that should give slightly better recovery. That will probably mean dropping down the intensity so do easier versions of the exercises when you are doing these sets.

[ASForum]

Crash: did you see my post? I put up a bunch of what you wanted to know 2-3 posts up from here, but let me expand a little: 5x5 isn't enough for gaining size specifically. You're going to want to be in the 3-5x7-10 range, preferably with a 113, 212 or 213 tempo. You could also experiment with 311, that should give slightly better recovery. That will probably mean dropping down the intensity so do easier versions of the exercises when you are doing these sets.

Sorry.. There's so much info on this thread while reading through I just Spaced out.. and dont know if I GOT TO the one you are pointing at... Sometimes your stuff info is Gold! but I have hard time keeping up.. . You're a store house of knowledge & sharing.

3-5x7-10 range (i.e. Sets x Reps.. .Right? - Well, Im already on the easiest progression of exercises.. If thats the case I dont do / cant do sufficient numbers...? Atleast with Pullups... etc. PS: Would Grease the Groove kind of thing work well for me to START OFF.. and increase my BASE CAPACITY for ..the BASIC progressions )

Hmm.. I googled for it but what is 113, 212 & 213 ? Pyramids or ladders? Do elaborate.. Sorry, not as familiar with the terms.

[Aaron Griffin]

Hmm.. I googled for it but what is 113, 212 & 213 ? Pyramids or ladders? Do elaborate.. Sorry, not as familiar with the terms.

It's the tempo at which you perform the exercise. Using a pushup as an example, 113 would mean you spend 1 second going down, pause for 1 second, then spend 3 seconds going back up. 1 down, 1 hold, 3 up. I usually notate these things with slashes 1/1/3 or 2/1/2

[Alexander Moreen]

If you can't do those Rep ranges(7-10) then you will gain size by doing the normal 5-6 with less rest. You also try kipping pullups for a couple weeks.

And in regards to doing all finger pullups all the time; I think that's a mistake because there is a difference between finger strength and hand strength(crushing power) and you should train both. Especially if you plan on ever learning any high bar skills.

[Deft-Mastery]

So to sum up slizzardman: the XR rows with a chinup grip but with that extra twist is the "very bicep specific" exercise you were talking about, the best of the FBE's?

[Joshua Naterman]

If you can't do those Rep ranges(7-10) then you will gain size by doing the normal 5-6 with less rest. You also try kipping pullups for a couple weeks.

And in regards to doing all finger pullups all the time; I think that's a mistake because there is a difference between finger strength and hand strength(crushing power) and you should train both. Especially if you plan on ever learning any high bar skills.

You won't find very many people with a lot more hand strength than I have, whether it is pinch grip, finger strength or crushing grip. My wrist strength is even better, probably. I can tell you for sure that the finger stuff is where it came from primarily. Everything from pull ups to deadlifts. There's a really good, sound reason for that too: the musculature in the fingers and the hands is connected, but when you do finger only grips you have to use the muscles in a very disadvantaged position. Touch your fingertips in a line across the center of your palm, parallel with the knuckles. Now move your fingers by touching the calluses with your fingertips and then opening back up. What do you feel? Muscles and tendons moving and flexing.

When you use an open hand grip, friction and skin tension tends to do most of the work. Now, you can get around that by doing thick bar work, but for regular bars the false grip work and the finger tip work is really the best bang for your rep.

Besides, even on high bar your fingers are bearing an awful lot of the load on swinging techniques, at least from what I've seen. I've never done any high bar work so I can't say, but the finger grip work is an excellent beginning hand strength builder. I absolutely agree that a program with some thicker bar and baseball grip work to actually engage the hand musculature more directly would be great, certainly superior to just finger work, but if I had to pick one thing it would be the finger work and probably baseball grip pull ups and deadlifts after that, if we are JUST talking about hand strength.

Of course, I have no idea how that would transfer over to high bar, but I have absolutely no trouble swinging from 90 to 90 and my grip base is very heavily oriented towards the finger gripping. I am fairly sure you are heavily under-estimating the amount of whole hand strength you gain. Pull ups with high bar grips on may be an entirely different story, I have never work them. I believe Gymgreg was saying that the rings grips actually make him work a little harder on his grip when he is holding himself on the rings while wearing them, so that might be a great hand strengthening exercise too, I don't know.

Deft: I'm not talking about a row at all. It's a bicep curl. It just so happens that your body moves towards your hands instead of your hands moving through space. I know it's confusing, and I don't know why, but it clearly is. I will try to have a vid up this week. I have a TON of school work and simply haven't even been able to keep up with WODs lately.

[Alexander Moreen]

Its not really a row because you bring your elbows into your lats and not past you or to the sides. The focus is on closing the elbow angle not bringing the body up.

[Alexander Moreen]

All I can talk from is my experience, but I tried a few months of fingertips only work and while my finger strength got pretty good - I can easily do 2 finger pullups from the last joint on those fingers - my crushing strength went from easily repping a 350lbs gripper to struggling with a single Rep.

[Deft-Mastery]

I wanted to ask about PPP: can you do these for like 5+ sets? Or should you "go slow" on them? I can do 10-11 as forward as I can go, which is pretty close to the hips (the hands), but not too close.

I've already done like 6 sets of 10 reps and I felt great but I wanted to do more of these during the day so I wanted to know if you shouldn't go too hard on these because like you said it takes like 3 months before an injury from decreased leverage exercises appears so...

[Joshua Naterman]

All I can talk from is my experience, but I tried a few months of fingertips only work and while my finger strength got pretty good - I can easily do 2 finger pullups from the last joint on those fingers - my crushing strength went from easily repping a 350lbs gripper to struggling with a single Rep.

Interesting. Are we talking about a COC #3.5 or something? Which gripper? Regardless, a loss is a loss. What did you do to get that crushing strength back?

[Joshua Naterman]

I wanted to ask about PPP: can you do these for like 5+ sets? Or should you "go slow" on them? I can do 10-11 as forward as I can go, which is pretty close to the hips (the hands), but not too close.

I've already done like 6 sets of 10 reps and I felt great but I wanted to do more of these during the day so I wanted to know if you shouldn't go too hard on these because like you said it takes like 3 months before an injury from decreased leverage exercises appears so...

With anything in this category I prefer to run it as more of a SSC. There's nothing wrong with alternating days between faster reps and slower reps, but I wouldn't change the overall volume at all and I definitely wouldn't mess with the hand positioning until you have a good 6-8 weeks of the exact same thing under your belt. That's my personal preference. Another thing I would do is start working on chest rolls and things like that, and start moving one set of PPP into your warm ups. I know that you are running a different type of program than I am, so it is harder for me to generalize what I do, but the basic premise is that as you get stronger and more highly trained many of the exercises that are your main work now will become your warm up. You want to have a good, challenging warm up that leads up to a relatively small volume of concentrated work sets, at least for strength work. The lower intensity of a bodybuilding training program will change that a little bit, but you still want to follow the same concept. For example, as you get stronger you may want to move PPP to more of a warm up position in each workout and start doing tuck planche push ups and planche dips for your work sets. In the grand scheme of things, PPP are really easy so don't keep them as your work sets forever. Start by moving one of the sets to the warm up and having one set of tuck planche push ups in your work sets. When you get to 10 reps transition another set, and when you have 2x10 another. Eventually you'll be doing 5x10 tuck planche push ups, and you'll be doing 1-3x10-20 PPP in your warm up. See what I mean? Do that slowly, don't rush it.

[Joshua Naterman]

Its not really a row because you bring your elbows into your lats and not past you or to the sides. The focus is on closing the elbow angle not bringing the body up.

Exactly. I actually have my elbows come forward of my body a little bit as I curl my arms, and I bring my hands just outside my shoulders about half the time, the other half I tough knuckles to forehead. I'm starting to like the hands to the outside more. Very therapeutic for my elbows, it seems.