Static hold times?

[Samuel Carr]

Ive read a lot of posts where people are saying to work up to a 60 second max hold for basic static holds like tuck planche, l-sits, etc. before moving on to the next progression... But in BtGB, it says you only need develop a 15 second max, with 60 seconds total time (ex. 5sec X 12 sets = 60 seconds total) before moving on to the next variation (as long as you're able to hold it for 3-5 sec). Im just looking for a little clarification, thanks.

[Joshua Naterman]

The 15 seconds only applies to straddle and beyond for PL, BL, FL. For advanced tuck and earlier 60s is the rule. I know it's not clearly spelled out, sometimes things like that slip through the cracks. That's what we're here for, to fill in the gaps.

Up to regular L-sit, you need a 60s hold. 30s for advanced L.

For manna, through low straight MSH you'll need 60s. For MSH you need 30s.

For straddle L, through low straight straddle you need 60s. For true straddle L you need 30s.

These times are how long a single perfect hold should last before you try to move on to the next progression.

[Sven Ravnstag]

And we should only try to increase our hold times every 8-12 weeks (and when we feel strong with the current time), correct? That was my understanding of steady state, but I'm not sure if it applies to statics or anything within the context of WOD's.

[Samuel Carr]

Oh okay I understand now. Thank you. One more question: if you can hold a 40 second l-sit, then does that mean you would only perform 3 sets of 20 second holds?

[Joshua Naterman]

That's the idea! That would be part of your warm up. Remember that you should be doing that 4 times a week, as part of your pre-WOD warm up. If you're on your own schedule, make sure to do your statics as described, 4x per week even if you only have 2 or 3 workout days. If you have 5 or 6 workout days, I guess it's up to you whether to do a 5th or 6th session, but I don't think that will do much good.

Steve: You have it right, you are usually going to re-evaluate your static holds every 8-16 weeks. There isn't a specific pre-selected time, you need to wait until you feel like your prescribed sets are TOO EASY for 3-4 weeks straight. Not that you can do them perfect, but not only are you doing them perfect but they just don't seem like even a slight challenge. That will happen somewhere in the 8-16 week range, usually. You just have to judge whether it is time to re-evaluate based on how you feel doing the sets!

[Samuel Carr]

Okay yeah i do 5 statics a week (planche, l-sit, straddle l-sit, back lever, and front lever). Thanks so much for clearing that up

[Joshua Naterman]

Don't skip Manna. At first, do reverse push up holds. Watch my FSP warm up video on my youtube account to see what that is. Until you have an easy 60s hold with your hands somewhere around the center of your upper body you don't need to try any of the progressions in the book.

Are you doing your FSP every workout?

[Erik Sjolin]

Alright so for a quick clarification, we need half of our max hold? Earlier on, slizz said that (straddle) L sits are more or less strength elements, right? For example, I hold 3x40s of L sits every two days, and 4x30s low straddle L every two days, and those are close to my max holds. I can hold them perfectly the whole while. For the PL BL FL, it's a little different though. I'm on a straddled BL (20s, moving to half lay at the end of august), 3x40s adv tuck FL (100/100, 2x90/90), and 4x30s adv frogstand (2 fingers back, 2 fingers 45 degrees). I could hold a 60 second one on the parallets, but went back to the floor to condition my wrists.

Manna is 3x30s bent leg (on parallets, about four or five inches elevation, plus 2x15s middle split hold on ground with fingers pointed to the side. Should they be pointing back?)

In short, should I be doing half of the times of PL BL FL? Or just keep doing what I'm doing until full 60s sets are too easy (except for the BL of course).

[Samuel Carr]

Ya I do FSP at the beginning of every workout. On pressing days I do tuck planche (made sure I could hold adv frog stand for at least 60 sec), pulling days im working on flat tuck bl, core days are when I do l-sits (on floor) and then at the end I do straddle l-sits w/legs straight but bellow horizontal, and then on leg days I do flat tuck fl. Earlier today I tested them and made sure I could do all previous progressions for at least 60 sec, and it turns out im on the right track ! I havent started doing manna work yet because I read somewhere that you should develop a solid adv l-sit and straddle l-sit on the floor first. Ive tried some just messing around, and I can hold a low msh for about 12 seconds

[Joshua Naterman]

What you've heard about manna is... misleading. The correct message is that you won't have any hope of a manna until you have a solid L sit and Straddle L sit. Why? You have to have that compression in the abs to get your body into position for the lift into the manna from MSH. Without that, you'll never get there. So really, those are pre-requisites for actually being able to PERFORM a 30s horizontal MSH, which itself is a pre-req for the manna itself.

You can and should be training all 6 FSP as your warm up before each workout, at 50% of your max hold, with a position where your max hold is not less than 20s.

[Samuel Carr]

The way I train though is doing all the exercises in the pressing section of BtGB on mondays, i go to a gymnastics class on tuesdays, pulling section on thursdays, core section on fridays, and legs on saturdays. By all the exercises I mean I do each movement at the variation im capable of for 5 reps x 3 sets. Each workout on average takes 1.5-2 hours including warm-ups and stretching. If I worked on all 6 FSPs each day, the already long workout would take extremely long and i dont think i would have the energy to complete it. I guess if i started doing wod's then it would work. But I decided not to do wod's becasue I figure coach sommer has his athletes do those for just their conditiong, and then they also do hours of skill work which is also quite taxing. Since im not doing the hours of skill work, I figure I should do longer workouts with more things from the book (instead of just 1 exercise from each plane of motion). And about the manna FSP, since im already doing l-sits and straddle-l on core day, adding manna to it would be too much for me to handle, and so im not sure which day i could add it to

[Joshua Naterman]

The way I train though is doing all the exercises in the pressing section of BtGB on mondays, i go to a gymnastics class on tuesdays, pulling section on thursdays, core section on fridays, and legs on saturdays. By all the exercises I mean I do each movement at the variation im capable of for 5 reps x 3 sets. Each workout on average takes 1.5-2 hours including warm-ups and stretching. If I worked on all 6 FSPs each day, the already long workout would take extremely long and i dont think i would have the energy to complete it. I guess if i started doing wod's then it would work. But I decided not to do wod's becasue I figure coach sommer has his athletes do those for just their conditiong, and then they also do hours of skill work which is also quite taxing. Since im not doing the hours of skill work, I figure I should do longer workouts with more things from the book (instead of just 1 exercise from each plane of motion). And about the manna FSP, since im already doing l-sits and straddle-l on core day, adding manna to it would be too much for me to handle, and so im not sure which day i could add it to

You are completely wrong. I don't mean to be insulting, I know that is very blunt, but your reasoning is way off. Coach's guys do a warm up that takes about 30 minutes including the FSP work, which takes 10-15 minutes of it at the most. The WOD is the main strength work and takes AT MOST 30 minutes. You seem to be thinking that conditioning is some kind of lower level of exercise. Conditioning means that you are preparing the body for future work. That is where you build your strength, endurance, stability and power. That is the key to success.

You have to remember that skills happen fairly quickly, and are largely reactive or plyometric in nature at higher levels. That makes them primarily a nervous system trainer. Yes, they will burn lots of energy and will add to the conditioning process, but Coach only allows his athletes to work on skills that are well within their strength levels. They never work skills that push the boundaries of their strength. That is why they almost never get injured and are never hurting at meets. The other kids think they're just acting tough when they say that, but it is true.

You should do whatever it is that makes you happy, my friend, but if you are looking for results you will not get any better than the WODs.

[Joshua Naterman]

The way I train though is doing all the exercises in the pressing section of BtGB on mondays, i go to a gymnastics class on tuesdays, pulling section on thursdays, core section on fridays, and legs on saturdays. By all the exercises I mean I do each movement at the variation im capable of for 5 reps x 3 sets. Each workout on average takes 1.5-2 hours including warm-ups and stretching. If I worked on all 6 FSPs each day, the already long workout would take extremely long and i dont think i would have the energy to complete it. I guess if i started doing wod's then it would work. But I decided not to do wod's becasue I figure coach sommer has his athletes do those for just their conditiong, and then they also do hours of skill work which is also quite taxing. Since im not doing the hours of skill work, I figure I should do longer workouts with more things from the book (instead of just 1 exercise from each plane of motion). And about the manna FSP, since im already doing l-sits and straddle-l on core day, adding manna to it would be too much for me to handle, and so im not sure which day i could add it to

You are completely wrong. I don't mean to be insulting, I know that is very blunt, but your reasoning is way off. Coach's guys do a warm up that takes about 30 minutes including the FSP work, which takes 10-15 minutes of it at the most. The WOD is the main strength work and takes AT MOST 30 minutes. You seem to be thinking that conditioning is some kind of lower level of exercise. Conditioning means that you are preparing the body for future work. That is where you build your strength, endurance, stability and power. That is the key to success.

You have to remember that skills happen fairly quickly, and are largely reactive or plyometric in nature at higher levels. That makes them primarily a nervous system trainer. Yes, they will burn lots of energy and will add to the conditioning process, but Coach only allows his athletes to work on skills that are well within their strength levels. They never work skills that push the boundaries of their strength. That is why they almost never get injured and are never hurting at meets. The other kids think they're just acting tough when they say that, but it is true.

You should do whatever it is that makes you happy, my friend, but if you are looking for results, meaning increases in your gymnastic abilities, you will not get any better than the WODs.

[Samuel Carr]

I definitely dont think conditioning is a lower form of exercise. I was just thinking that since coach's boys are working on conditioning and then hours of skill work too (which doesnt seem to come quickly since its doing the same movement thousands of times), where as im not doing any skill work I have more effort and time to spend on just conditioning and should therefore make the workouts I do have more conditioning in them. So what you're saying is that in the wod's there is stretching and then FSPs, and then the actual WOD that coach posts for the day???

[Alexander Moreen]

Yes, there is ACTIVE stretching(this is where you put all your prehab exercises such as dislocates and Ido's shoulder mobility workouts), FSPs, and then easier variations of the movements you will be doing in the WODs, and then the WOD, and then static stretching, massaging, hot/cold showering and whatever else you do after your workouts to keep yourself injury free.

[Joshua Naterman]

RIght, Lavastine has a pretty good idea of what is going on here. Now, I don't want you to think that you can't do any more, because as we have both said Coach's guys are able to do quite a lot. You just have to remember that what they are doing is not meant to challenge their physical strength, it is meant to improve technique. Technique work is always submaximal. You go for perfection, not a physical challenge.

I would approach your extra work with the same mindset. What you are doing is a test of endurance more than anything, and if that is your goal then I guess that's one way to get there. You will develop the same endurance with the WODs, and you'll have plenty of juice left to do a lot of other stuff if you like.

I'm cutting and pasting my response to Redlac, who has asked a question similar to yours. I think this will really help you understand what I meant!

Hey guys,

I'm wondering whether it would be advisable to add extra exercise to the existing wod protocol.

At the moment each day I'm doing:

Warmup: FSP'S

Wod.

then a little bit of handstand work here and there.

My question basically comes because after all's said and done I still feel pretty fresh and want to do more. I'd love to add in some dedicated core work and I'd also love to do more conditioning (running, hill sprints, skipping e.t.c) I was thinking of addding this in after my WOD'S. what do you guys think?

Tom.

My response:

You absolutely can. Coach's guys do a lot of skill work afterwards, and while that's well within their strength levels it is still tiring. Keep in mind that skills have to be perfect, so they will always be submaximal. Use the same concept in your training.

You can absolutely get away with quite a bit more, programmed properly. Doing extra handstand work on 2 of the days for maybe 5-10 minutes will be great for handstand development, but what may be even better is just doing a single wall handstand every day for about 15s less than your max hold up to a minute per day, unless your max hold is less than 45s in which case I'd do half of max hold until it gets up there. Single submaximal sets build a lot of strength rather quickly because they cause neurological adaptation. The nervous system becomes more efficient, learns to use the right muscles at the right time, and develops the ability to send more action potentials which leads to stronger contractions. That's pure relative strength, which is what will help you the most in your gymnastic progress. You also build up outstanding work capacity this way.

A single set of the wall handstand, 2-3 hill sprints(switched with other sprints like a sled sprint one day and perhaps longer sprints like 400m once a week, but just 1-2 of those), 1 set of HLL max reps minus 2-3, so 2-3 reps if your max is 5, 2 reps if max is 4, just 1 rep if max is 3. Adjust the HLL progression to be appropriate. You could do a single set of body lever every other day as well.

Doing things like that will make you feel even BETTER than you do now, which may be confusing. That is how you were designed by nature to feel! Don't try and work more than that, you'll just start getting tired and worn down. It's easy to do too much at once, but you can do a whole lot of you aren't maxing out and you keep the volume of each exercise very low. It is quite remarkable. This is a secret of the old strongmen that I've been piecing together for a long time. It is literally transforming me.

You have to remember that you don't have to push your body to its limit to get results.

You have to push the body to its limit to get the maximum response for each SESSION, but that has a lot of drawbacks. One, you get tired. Really tired. Two, you need more rest. A lot more rest. Finally, you have to really be careful with your exercise selection, because you can only go all-out with a few things before you're completely wrecked for the day. Because of all this you have to specialize in one area with this type of training. That makes this training concept, and variations of it, very good for powerlifters and olympic lifters because their sports are very narrowly focused into just a few competitive movements.

When you don't push your body anywhere near its limit you are still pushing past what your body accepts as normal, and it will adapt accordingly. Our bodies like to operate within a large buffer zone. When we push even a little bit outside that zone, our body expands its abilities to compensate for that, so that the workload ends up being inside the buffer zone. Because you're staying so cfar away from the outer limits of your ability training as I've suggested, you are not going to get tired. You are not going to be all that sore. You will be able to train 4-6 days a week and do so indefinitely while practicing a rather large variety of things. This kind of workout is also very time efficient. The small increases from day to day add up quickly, and while progress in any one area will be slightly behind what a very focused approach would give, it will still be good progress. You will have more energy than you know what to do with. You may actually have to do one really hard session every week or two just to keep yourself under control. You will have consistent progress in EVERYTHING that you practice. You can still build a 3x BW squat and deadlift and a 2x BW bench, as some benchmarks, WHILE making outstanding progress in the gymnastics too, AND handbalancing, AND sprinting, AND jumping, etc. You will be slightly behind the development of any one specialist in any of those areas, but you will get to the same level if you want to. It will take an extra year or two, but you will have so many other high level abilities to show off at the same time that people won't believe it is possible without drugs. I can guarantee you this works.

You just need to pick the things you want and not do more than 2 sets of them per day, and don't let either of those sets be maximal. You will figure out what you can handle. What I've mentioned as suggestions won't bother you at all. There is probably still plenty of room to adjust that and fit quite a bit more in.

[Samuel Carr]

And where you do you train for specific skills like press handstands and stuff like that? Is that all included in the WODs or do you do extra specific work afterwords or on a day where there aren't any WODs?

[Alexander Moreen]

For press handstands it depends on how strong you are at them. Can you easily do multiple reps freestanding without it feeling strenuous? If so it becomes skill work and you can do it after your main workout or as part of your warmup. If you cannot do them easily then they are still strength work and need to be programmed correctly. This is true for many "skills", it just really depends on how hard they are on your muscles and joints to perform at your level of conditioning.

[Joshua Naterman]

That's exactly right.

Skill work is always easy stuff compared to strength and conditioning work.

[Samuel Carr]

I think Im going to do what slizzardman man was talking about in that Im going to add 2 days of 5-10min handstand training for a pre or post-workout warm-up, and until i have better handstand balance freestanding and have developed more upper body and lower back strength, am not going to specifically work press handstands, but maybe i/'' just do embedded static handstands to help develop the press. Thanks so much this was extremely helpful. I have become enlightened