New...have questions

[jzac]

Hello everyone,

I just found this site and think it will be quite helpful. I apologize if I should be posting this elsewhere on the forum...

First, I should say that I come from a weightlifting background but have, within the past couple of years, switched completely over to bodyweight exercises. I am most likely older than many of you, but still in fairly good shape. I purchased a pair of rings about a year ago and have half-heartedly used then since then. Initially, I was very discouraged to find out how weak I truly was. I have read some of Coach's articles but still have questions. Any help would be appreciated!

If I want to train like a gymnast using the rings; how best do I go about it? I've seen routines on other sites (where I purchased my rings) that focus on many exercises that just replace weight exercises...pull-ups, dips, flies etc. Then I read Coach's about how gymnasts build their physic's, especially their arms, and found it interesting that it was straight arm leverage movements that work and not doing tons of pull-ups necessarily.

So I started do just holds...one minute total for each; tuck front lever, support, inverted pull-up, partial cross (very partial), L-sit, and a support where I lean as far forward as I can (I read somewhere that this is kind of a progression for a planche).

I realize that I'm completely clueless, with regard to this topic so I apologize if my "routine" makes little sense...that's why I'm here looking for some guidance. It's good to be here and looking forward to learning a lot.

Thanks,

jzac

[Raizen]

Well first off, welcome to the forum! Your 'routine' is certainly... everywhere, but I think most people can make some attempt at understanding. At any rate, what are you really trying to achieve. Saying something more than "I want to get stronger" would be preferable, as specific goals make it easier for the people here to help you.

[Edward Smith]

first just let me say i'm not an expert i'm just drawing from my experinces and advice given to me.

first of all, yes coach sommer mentions in the t-nation interview that gymnasts use straight arm pulls and holds to build strength (remember that coach always says train for function and form will follow, just remember that).

I just wanted to clarify that with you, ok. Moving on, i'll assume you have some understanding of training basics. But with the straight arm pulls they do are extremely advanced skills and exercises like butterfly's (it's pretty much an iron cross pull up, easy way to describe it), maltese pull to planche, inverted cross to handstand (or reverse) these are very high level strength skills. There are many pressing and pulling (bent arm) exercises in gymnastics, planche push ups and front lever pull ups for example, and reaching these requires great strength. Remember gymnastics is a sport using only bodyweight and apparatuses, in the case of the rings to show strength they use positions wear they have little leverage and so gymnasts condition themselfs for it.

Doing straightarm holds will devlop your arms and strength greatly as long as your progressively moving on to harder and harder positions. That's probably the main thing just make sure your progressing onto harder exercises and variatons.

i know it's a very very long response but you were pretty general with your question anyway hope it helps, and if you have any more specific questions fire away.

Ed

[jzac]

Raizen,

Thanks for the response and the welcome! To be specific; my goals are strength and conditioning. I truly like the challenge the rings offer but have not yet figured out how to gain the best results for strength. I would like to eventually be able to perform strength moves such as crosses, planche, and levers, so I guess I'm wanting to know the best way to achieve that. Let me first say that my routine is not really a routine yet as it is still evolving. Again thanks for the response, and I hope that is a little more specific.

jzac

[jzac]

ed x,

Thanks for the response! I certainly don't mind a long response as I'm trying to learn. I guess, to be less general, I would like to know this; if a person was starting out in gymnastics and was to concentrate exclusively (or mostly) on a ring routine...with the goal of being able to perform all the strength holds...how would they train for that? What, specifically, would their training comprise of? Do gymnasts do ring pull-ups and push-ups? Or, do the just do progressions of the movements until they can achieve them? Hope that made so sense.

jzac

[Edward Smith]

well hopefully you've read coach sommer's articles or at least building the olympic body, if you haven't i highly suggest it as will everyone else on the site. Well with how gymnasts train like i said in my other post is they just do it progressively and incrementally.

I mean take the 'Iron Cross' for example i'm sure no one has just gotten into support on the rings and lowered themselfs to an iron cross, it takes a long time to develop the strength and conditioning for it. There are lots of ways to pursue it, hang inverted from a high bar (could be any horizontial bar high enough) and hold weights out straight armed, perform it on rings with surgical tubing or therabands increasing the length of tubing, or lowering as far from support as you can and holding. Now you could use one or more of these methods, personally i wouldn't just do the third one, but that is pretty much how a gymnast would work towards an iron cross.

How your working up to sixty seconds is good, of course for things like crosses, maltese's, victorians and other high strength skills it is sufficent to just get from 5-10 second holds. With things like front levers (are you doing planche work? for this post i will assume you are) and planches once you move onto the more advanced variations of them you can perform their relative presses and pulls.

Now a general piece of training advice for any strength feat static (hold) or dynamic (moving) is be specific, for example if you training towards a front lever don't do bicep curls just because they work your biceps, yes you can do assitor exercises just make sure they're close as possible to your target skill for example dragon flags would be good for front levers because it works the abs which are used in front lever but also they work the abs extremely similarily.

To sum up work up to skills progressively, strength takes time, yes gymnasts do pull ups and push ups well at least variations of them examples front lever pull up, muscle ups, handstand push ups and planche push ups (which some people classify as true push up), and you can do other exercises to help with strength skills just make sure they are as close to related to, movement pattern, muscles used etc as in the original skill your practising.

With routines (sets, reps, how many times a week) just make sure you not overtraining, high sets/low reps is good for this and for building strength. As of coach sommers suggestion i follow a monday, tuesday, thursday, friday training schedule i would suggest it or perhaps even five days a week just do different on different days so you don't over do it.

Another long one but there alot of 'strength holds', i do get what you are saying though so that's why this a how to train holds sort of post.

Ed Xmith

[jzac]

Thanks Ed,

Yes, that helps. I appreciate your patience and understanding!

[Raizen]

I highly suggest finding a gymnastics gym and attending some classes. they'll help you with your specific goals of attaining the various holds. They're also certified professionals and so you know they'll get your form perfect. In creating a routine try to focus on balancing out the various muscular systems to both avoid injuries and maximize your strength and versitility. Upper body vertical push (handstand pushup, push press, ect), upper body horizontal push (planche pushups, bench press, ect), upper body vertical pull (chinups and the like), and upper body horizontal pull (front lever pullups, rows). Unlike the coaches, I am by no means certified or a professional, so I implore you to be skeptical while taking my advice. I'm just offering whats worked for me. When I do conditioning routines, they look something like this:

UPPER BODY PUSH

-exercise (static hold)

-exercise (vert)

-exercise (horz)

UPPER BODY PULL

-exercise (static hold)

-exercise (vert)

-exercise (horz)

CORE/TORSO

-exercise (static hold)

-exercise (main dynamic str)

-exercise (secondary dynamic str)

LOWER BODY 1

-exercise (main anterior chain drill)

-exercise (complementary drill)

LOWER BODY 2

-exercise (main posterior chain drill)

-exercise (complementary drill)

SUNDAY-rest

MONDAY-pull, legs 1, core

TUESDAY- push, legs 2, core

WEDNESDAY- core

THURSDAY- pull, legs 1

FRIDAY- push, legs 2, core

SATURDAY- rest

It is rather taxing, and so I dont suggest it if you're also training gymnastic skill, but if you're just going for strength, then you may want to give such a template a try. It's fairly advanced, and so you may need to work up from something simpler, but I find this style routine yields amazing strength benefits. However it doesnt provide, nor is it meant to give large increases in power or speed, as it is geared almost solely towards strength. As such if you're trying to improve your form for a specific sport or some such activity, I wouldnt follow it for more than 4-6 months a year, on the "off-season" of course. Again these are just my methods, I dont guarentee that they're the absolute best. Good luck!

[jzac]

Raizen,

Thank you! These are some things I can try. To be honest, attending a gymnastic class is not practical for me at this point in my life.

One question. I see you have your static hold first...Is that just one hold? Or, a series of different holds?

Thanks again!

[Raizen]

For me it is usually just a single static hold, not two. It is also always the more relevant one. For example, if its an upper body pull day, I would perform the front lever hold, as it involves the pulling muscles, and on push days I would perform the planche. By the week's end I'll have only performed each hold twice, but I find that twice a week is enough when combined with the other two complimentary exercises. I think giving yourself ample recovery time in the scope of a cycle is extremely important. It's good to be driven, so long as you dont drive yourself into the ground. Of course that's just my opinion, and I base my advice solely on what has woked for me. Also, I dont put learning the holds very high on my priority list, as I train my strength for martial arts and not gymnastics, so attainment of the perfect hold isnt all that necessary for me. However depending on your goals you may wish to spend more time on the holds to improve and perfect your form.