Jiu Jitsu and gymnastics training = too much?

[Samuel Carr]

My friend started going to a local jiu jitsu place called Paragon 4x a week (same place where MMA fighter Chuck Liddell started at) where he practices for about 2 hours each session. He mostly works on sparring and technique though, and he recently asked me if it'd be a good idea to start doing the BtGB workouts with me to get stronger. I think it'd be really beneficial to his martial arts training, but my only worry is that it might be too much for the body to handle (since he is essentially getting pounded into pulp while sparring). I was thinking about getting him into the WOD workouts each day since theyre fairly quick and condensed to do after he trains for jiu jitsu (like doing skill work and then conditioning in gymnastics)...... What do you guys think?

[Julekman]

Depends of what your friend want. If he want to be serious in ju jitsu, start to competition etc, than dont forget that he had to fight with lot of resistance in his training that comes from his partners, but also at the end of ju jitsu training they work on core, general endurance etc. In that case every day strenght training is not an option. Elite fighters especialy in grappling, mma etc, stick with individual training programs which include some kind of block training depends of date of fight. Anyway if he train ju jitsu seriously (every training in the gym), the general rule is to not exceed more then 2-3 strenght training, but also be aware of overtraining depends of his physical state.

[Coach Sommer]

Once he is capable of handling his jiu jitsu training comfortably, then add the GB WODs to his schedule.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Samuel Carr]

Alright cool. Thanks for the response and advice Coach, I'll let him know

[Neal Winkler]

Long time BJJ player here.

I'm also a little guy and us little guys take a pounding that the big guys don't know about.

I did no-gi for a long time and recently started going to a gi school. I went back recently to my no-gi school to visit and everyone said that I felt much stronger. They thought the gi improved my strength (and maybe that's true) but I though it was mostly from GB training!! WOOO!

[RatioFitness]

I'm having a hard time improving my strength while doing BJJ 3-4 times per week.

I have about a low-intermediate level of bent-arm strength (my straight arm strength sucks). I've been strength training (gymnastic for upper and weights for lower) 2x per week.

I can do rope climbs, 2-3 HSPU (not HeSPU, I know the difference) on the wall, front squat 175lbs x 5 at 158lbs bw, strict muscle ups.

Haven't seen any progress in months in lower body or bent arm-strength, but I've seen a little bit on straight-arm strength.

Any suggestions? Do you think BJJ is too intense to continue making strength progress after intermediate level (for people with bad genes like me)?

[Philip Chubb]

He will eventually adapt to it. It may suck and be depressing at first but you get used to it. My average day includes 2 strength sessions, equilibre, floreio, mma, gymnastics, and occasionally some sprinting. I take naps, eat a lot, and sleep in a pitch black room for 8-9 hours a day. I make gains from workout to workout. A big work capacity is a beautiful tool. Don't try to push it with a weak engine.

[RatioFitness]

My average day includes 2 strength sessions, equilibre, floreio, mma, gymnastics, and occasionally some sprinting.

Not everyone has the genetics to be a full time exerciser!

[FREDERIC DUPONT]

Why do you think your strength levels are inadequate for BJJ?

(...) (for people with bad genes like me)?

(...) Not everyone has the genetics to be a full time exerciser!

I am confused here, what makes you think genetics has anything to do with it? :roll:

(complaints about genes must be addressed directly to the manufacturer )

[RatioFitness]

Why do you think your strength levels are inadequate for BJJ?

(...) (for people with bad genes like me)?

(...) Not everyone has the genetics to be a full time exerciser!

I am confused here, what makes you think genetics has anything to do with it? :roll:

(complaints about genes must be addressed directly to the manufacturer )

My strength levels may not be all that inadequate, but plenty of people are stronger pound for pound and it doesn't hurt them any, like ex-wrestlers. I also have incredibly small arms for my weight, as I need to lose some fat around my midsection and add the weight back on my upper body in muscle.

Please do not dismiss, out of hand, the possibility that I have bad genetics. Research has shown that some people are non-responders or low-responders to exercise. I've always been a sickly person with poor recuperation/healing abilities. I can't handle these crazy workloads like Alex, plus I am 31 years old, not a young kid anymore. With all the exercise he does, Alex is probably a young college kid. It isn't fair to compare me to him.

[FREDERIC DUPONT]

(...) Please do not dismiss, out of hand, the possibility that I have bad genetics. (...)

I am not dismissing it completely, but it is very unlikely you are even close to your "genetic potential", therefore, you cannot possibly know where it is. (If I am wrong, I'll eat my hat and post a video of it! )

In any case, it really doesn't matter because there is nothing you can do about it! My point (which I did not express) is that you have a lot of progress reserves hidden behind factors that you can control: Nutrition, training, sequence of training, planned recovery.

The "I am too small", "I am too big", "I am too fat", "I need more rest", "I am too old" of the world won't help you unless you take steps to adapt what you do to mitigate it.

Focus on what you can control and forget the rest.

[Rik de Kort]

Fred, you are the man!

RF, your 'genetics' are doing 3x BJJ a week and 2 strength training sessions. If your recover isn't spot on, you won't go very fast with that and this is only exarcerbated by your age. In fact, at this point genetics has little to do with it. You can do more than you think, you just need to know how!

[Cole Dano]

Ratio it sounds like you've just hit a plateau. At 31 you are no where near too old for what you are doing.

The 'genetics' factor in this discussion is more about you recovery, and if you were at one time progressing with your current schedule you will be able to continue to. As long as you get your nutrition and sleep I just don't see that as being too much.

So if you're stalled out on some elements of your strength work the thing you need to do is look at your programing. Play with adding a regular deload to your cycle, changing volume / accumulation - intensifications phases etc. Also keep in mind that at a certain point, gains will come slower. Though months seems like a long time for no changes at all.

[Julekman]

I'm having a hard time improving my strength while doing BJJ 3-4 times per week.

I have about a low-intermediate level of bent-arm strength (my straight arm strength sucks). I've been strength training (gymnastic for upper and weights for lower) 2x per week.

I can do rope climbs, 2-3 HSPU (not HeSPU, I know the difference) on the wall, front squat 175lbs x 5 at 158lbs bw, strict muscle ups.

Haven't seen any progress in months in lower body or bent arm-strength, but I've seen a little bit on straight-arm strength.

Any suggestions? Do you think BJJ is too intense to continue making strength progress after intermediate level (for people with bad genes like me)?

I want to be master of everything in the world, but this is not possible. You want progress in BJJ, but you also want Gymnastic specif skills progress. First rule: If you are not serious, then train everything you can imagine in one day. The second rule here is: If BJJ is your priority, then strength training is only and I mean only a second supplement to support your specific skill and nothing more. In that situation there is general strength and specific strength work for BJJ. The progress here is important but you dont want to think too many about it, because the fight is your priority, and there is some skills and rules in that fight. The most important supplement here is your conditioning, without that your strength is useless. General and specific endurance. I rather want fighter who have excellent specific skill and endurance to fight for 2h compare to strength skill only. Of course you also need max strength, but keep that strength training simple. For general max strength basic lifts or appropriate bodyweight work 2x week is enough for most people. Prepare for fighting need very complex preparation, max strength, explosive work, strength endurance and conditioning, specific skills, etc, simple, you dont have time to work only gymnastics specific skills 4 or 5 times a week if you want to be a serious fighter. The most important point here is your results on the mat, and thats it. If you want to learn planche thats great if you have time and capacity, but do you need that skill for BJJ? No.

[Philip Chubb]

I wouldn't say it's all genetics. Part of it is definitely the fact that I have adapted to it. In high school, I would train for 2.5-3 hours of wrestling practice each day. Then ride my bike two miles over to the place where I would put another 3 hours of work in. Then I would usually hit the gym and strength train after all this. My nutrition was horrible and my sleep was too. Not to mention I was in school so getting homework done wasn't happening as often. After the season ended though, I noticed I had a much bigger gas tank. So a portion of it is definitely that you can adapt by either adding little bits at a time, or throwing yourself in and forcing yourself through something like John Broz's dark times.

If you really believe you don't respond well, maybe a change of plan is in store for you. Pick one or two very bang for your buck exercises and for 30 minutes, simply work on getting as many good reps as you can. This will help you get enough reps to stimulate adapation without causing you to need to recover from a full body workout.

[FREDERIC DUPONT]

(...) The most important supplement here is your conditioning, without that your strength is useless. General and specific endurance. I rather want fighter who have excellent specific skill and endurance to fight for 2h compare to strength skill only. (...)

Fight for 2 hours, really!? :shock: :roll:

I guess it depends on what is the goal of training BJJ or other MA... is it for sports or for self defense...

For SD, I don't think many fights last more than 20 seconds, therefore, endurance is not very important compared to impact, power, speed, skill, and the ability to turn the switch on.

[thenail01]

There is no need for gymnastics training and BJJ to be mutually exclusive. Just look at GSP.

I've been training BJJ for a while. With gymnastics training, come tournament time, even up against people who are professional fighters (as in they survive off training, teaching, personal training, etc.), despite their knowledge of cutting weight 'appropriately'... without cutting weight I'm usually one of the 'stronger' grapplers, at the least I never feel over my head. Sure if I were to really go after winning an IBJJF event I would focus more on BJJ specifically, but I wouldn't abandon gymnastics training.

I think this idea of 'functional' or 'sport specific' training is over-hyped and putting blinders on more overarching principles like proprioception, neuro-programming, feedback, balance, understanding of leverage and center of mass, body tension, etc. When you have deficits in these more important 'sport' skills, gymnastics makes them glaringly obvious.

If your friend is killing himself at jiu jitsu, he's not doing it right. There's so much to be said for flow-rolling, drilling techniques over and over again - the point of jiu jitsu is technique and leverage not strength. Gymnastics will certainly help with strength, perhaps more important flexibility. Even beyond that - the idea that you can train for several years to hold a strength position for 2 seconds... 2 seconds... the idea of mastery, has so much carryover. The Mendes brothers train endlessly for their leg drag pass. [As I side-note, I can't stand those who are so anti-modern jiu jitsu who just want to sit and play closed guard then proceed to whine that a move/pass/choke/sweep is too fancy and doesn't work. It doesn't work for them because they haven't drilled it 10,000 times like the person showing the move has]. There's a large similarity between gymnastics and jiu jitsu in this respect if you ask me. No matter how 'strong' you are, you're not going to up and do a planche without putting in the proper training, ligament/tendon conditioning, etc. No matter how strong you are, you're not going to triangle a black belt without first learning leverage, hip mobility, and drilling thousands of times. Most other sports you can 'get lucky' and occasionally compete at an elite level, not so with gymnastics and BJJ.

I hate the genetics argument. Genetically, we're all designed to be the best overall, well-rounded athletic species on this planet. So what do you mean when you say you have bad genetics? The genetics argument is another excuse for you to not live up to your potential.

[Philip Chubb]

I hate the genetics argument. The genetics argument is another excuse for you to not live up to your potential.

+1.

[Richard Duelley]

I thought I was a 'non responder' for a long time. Then I cleaned up my diet and ate A LOT more and like magic, my body responded.

[RatioFitness]

I thought I was a 'non responder' for a long time. Then I cleaned up my diet and ate A LOT more and like magic, my body responded.

When I'm training and eat clean in a caloric surplus I just get fatter.

[RatioFitness]

I hate the genetics argument. The genetics argument is another excuse for you to not live up to your potential.

+1.

No doubt that is true for many, but since there are some people who really are non- or low-responders it can be a legit excuse.

Also, be careful of using this in the opposite way. People who are normal or high-responders can say, "you're just using genetics as an excuse" as a way of feeling superior because they want to believe their results are nothing more than a result of their hard work and determination. They are better than all those slackers who are not as virtuous in their work ethic.

As an example of superior genetics, there are men who don't workout and have desk jobs, and still have larger muscle mass than I do. It's just genetics. I've been strength training for like 12 years.

[Philip Chubb]

Then resign yourself to being mediocre with the excuse of genetics while other people fight through it. If saying that other peoples genetics is the reason they got to the high level they're at makes you feel better, continue to do that as well.

Or, be a bit more positive about it and stop worrying about high or low responding, get a good coach to program it for you if you don't know how to do it (a lot of "low responders" issues") and make some gains.

[atxmatteo]

No worries Ratio, I'm a true ectomorph as well. Genetics determine your peak potential, and it might take a long time for you to reach it. I began pouring through journals and magazines at 17, weighing 150lbs with probably 20lbs of that being muscle! haha After 11 years of learning, dedicated exercise regimens and diets, certifications in training, a Masters in Physical Therapy, and years of jiu jitsu and boxing, I am a very lean 170lbs. I've taken on bodybuilding, powerlifting, and always competed in martial arts. Despite my knowledge in the field, and diligent and strict adherence to programs and diets, the majority of my friends would show better gains. You have to learn to accept it. It has always motivated me to work harder in the gym or the ring. I can assure you that there is a distinct advantage that you hold over others as well. My inordinately long arms might be a disadvantage in lifting and gymnastics, but they give me a great advantage in boxing, and even in jits when I learned how to adapt to them properly. It's the cards you are dealt, and now you have to push yourself as hard as you can. Let your body dictate when you have trained too much or too little. You can follow templates as guides, but if you listen to your body, it will tell you when to push it harder or hit the brakes.

[Joshua Naterman]

I have worked with true ectos and commonly seen 30-40 lb weight gains, at least 80% of which was muscle, in 4 months. Fat gain is heavily dependent on food choices. Muscular gain is 24+lbs.

When I am not literally there in person each workout, the gains seem to be more like 15 lbs in 4 months, probably 90% or more is muscle from visual analysis. Muscular gain is 13-14 lbs.

Both are good, but competent supervision makes a large difference.

It is all about tempo, not doing too much in one session, and eating. And eating. And eating. I have found that 3 full body workouts per week seems to be the best routine for these people.

Going to failure is also important if you want to grow.

[atxmatteo]

Sure, I've seen many ectos respond well to lifting. I've seen many endos respond to cutting as too. I have sparingly seen 24+lb muscle gains in 4 months, outside of using anabolics; that's very impressive. It's never difficult to put on weight. 3500 calories equals a pound, so configure from there, where you want to be in 4 months. However, the quality of that weight is another story. I've also seen many hard-gaining ectos struggle to progress in the same routine and diet scheme, as well as endos that have great difficulty in shedding some of those layers despite their efforts. I can say that variety has helped me a lot. Coming from boxing, I thought my core was solid. There isn't a single athlete in my gym that can perform all of my post workout ab and neck routine. I found this site a month ago, and I couldn't perform a planche, or come to a HS, and my "iron" core suddenly felt like dough; I'm really excited to say that I can perform a handstand from Lsit using my parallettes (mainly tucked), and incorporate the WOD into my weekly schedule. I thought absorbing body punches was easy before, but in just a month of this training, I can tell a HUGE difference (sorry for the tangent and hijacked thread).