Bodyweight Progressions vs Adding Weight

[Jay Guindon]

Just out of curiosity, how come when a certain exercise gets too easy we move onto a more complexe variation instead of just adding weight to the easy one. If getting strong is the only goal, not being a gymnast, wouldn't just adding weight to the easier exercises be sufficient.

For example, moving from a floor row to an inverted row. Why not just add a weight vest to the floor row. Or rather than doing bulgarian pullups, just add weight to regular pullups. Same for dips, push ups, etc.

Having said this, it is my goal to get to harder progressions and do more difficult movements, like planche pushups instead of regular pushups, because they're badass. It just occured to me that with regular weightlifting you do the same exercises just with added weight so why not do the same bodyweight exercise and just add a weight vest.

[Gerald Mangona]

First, nothing against adding weight to your FBEs. I have no doubt that you will progressively get stronger.

One thing I'm learning about gymnastic strength is that it's about leverage. Or, more specifically, de-leverage. So where in the weight room you're doing everything from a highly leveraged position and adding more weight...in gymnastics we keep the weight the same (or same-ish) and do it from a highly de-leveraged position.

The problem about being in a de-leveraged position is that the exercises don't just tax your muscles, they tax your connective tissue...ligaments/tendons, etc. So if you just want to be a guy who can do body rows with an 80 lb weight vest, you can definitely do that. But even with that much strength in your back, your bicep tendon is probably not prepared to do a back lever.

Same with dips...sure, you could just add weights. But if you ever want to do an iron cross, then you need to go through the progressions with the rings turned out....and then doing bulgarians...etc.

You mention that you want to do planche pushups one day. In order to get there, you'll need to strengthen to heck out of your bicep tendons and work your straight arm strength. That said, if the next progression is too hard, using weights can be a way to "bridge the gap" between progressions. I'll probably need to when I (one day) go from tuck planche to straddle.

Jerry

[ASForum]

PS: I am no expert.

The exercise remaining the same and weight added, you only build additional 'capacity' for THAT progression INSTANCE. Which does not work ALL muscles beyond a certain point.

Again, I am no expert but look at it this way... In any of those Funky Gymnastic exercises / Static positions, you are activating TONS of different "MUSCLE strands & stabilizers, Tendons, CNS" etc all at the same time for a pretty complex move. Which requires all of the above to go ABOVE & BEYOND.. because its an ENTIRELY different position. A position you could almost never REACH unless you go through the progressions.

Plus, I think

On the opposite end.

You do isolation, say Bicep Preacher curls which hit a smaller / limited set of the above.

e.g. You could bench 400lbs but there's no way you could hold a plance.. because your limited set of muscle fibes / tendons have been trained not the ones that come into play in a more difficult progression and / or all of them working together.

Simpler example.. Lat Pull downs vs Pull ups.. Similar stuff but kinda different.

[Animalonfire]

Apart from the co-ordination, satisfaction, and fun present in advancing progressions one doesn't have to shell out for new weights (drawing from food money), or put up with various burns/scrapes from straps. It would take allot of weight also to turn the shoulder girdle demands of a tuck Fl/Bl/Planche into anything like a layout, I think you'd end up with a couple of weight vests, ankle weights, backpack full of water, disks hanging from a belt.... This begs the question "how do you get onto the rings?"

Perhaps I'm exagerating :roll: , but you get the point I'm sure. Straps on ankles are a next step AFTER taming the straight body variation if for some reason you're still not satisfied with your strength development. Alternatively you could stay on the same variation and grow out your legs, but this is only for maximal strength (external load), your relative(strength/weight ratio) strength wouldn't benefit because of the extra weight.

[Jay Guindon]

Cool. I had a feeling that adding weight to easy exercises wouldn't be as benficial at hitting as many muscles as possible like doing harder progressions does. I gues just the fact that it is a harder progression would in almost all cases require more total muscles to be used tahn the previous one.

Like I mentioned, I had no intention of sticking to the easiest progressions and just adding weight, I want to get to the hardest variations some day, but I am a curious dude and always like to know the why behind stuff.

[braindx]

You can and it can work.

Weighted dips and pullups are an obvious one that will give you strength much like training decreased leverage bodyweight exercises. If you get heavy enough wwith the weighted pullups you can easily get a one arm chin or cross for example.

[Joshua Naterman]

Yup! Weighted pull ups built the strength that allowed me to perform a perfect 4 second full lay FL after 4 months of FL training. Of course, I was 220lbs at the time and I could do 8-10 pullups with 100 lbs extra. That's a lot of strength, it doesn't come quickly. I spent a while building up to that in the Navy.

Your best bet is to go through cycles where you shift concentration to either added weight or decreased leverage. 70/30 in terms of training effort and time spent on added weight versus decreased leverage for 2-4 weeks, and then switch. You'll do much better that way than either method alone, if programmed correctly with good nutrition.

[Coach Sommer]

You can and it can work ... Weighted dips and pullups are an obvious one that will give you strength much like training decreased leverage bodyweight exercises.

To an extent and this is something that I have done extensively in the past with my athletes (eg. a single bar MU with 50% bodyweight added). Depending on the movement chosen, increasing maximal strength in a single exercise can be very beneficial as a small part of a more complete, complex program.

However, doing so will not "give you strength similar to training decreased leverage bodyweight exercises". If your long term objective is to progress onward toward more advanced gymnastics strength elements, there is truly no substitute for also progressing through the gymnastics strength variations. Otherwise all weightlifters and powerlifters would automatically be masters of Gymnastic Strength Training™.

... If you get heavy enough wwith the weighted pullups you can easily get a one arm chin or cross for example.

This is incorrect. You will not be able to do a straight-arm iron cross without damaging the elbows unless you have first properly conditioned specifically for an iron cross; regardless of how heavy your weighted pullups are.

Also, some time ago my weighted pullups increased by 20lbs in the span of two months or so by not doing weighted pullups and focusing solely on assisted OAC. And this was despite having been stuck at the same weight for weighted pullups for many years.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Joshua Naterman]

I'm definitely skeptical of achieving a OAC through weighted pull ups. Even when I was doing 12 reps with 120 lbs, my all time best in pull ups, I could only do the lower 60% of the OAP, and even that made my elbows scream after a while.

In my experience so far weighted pull ups carry over well to front levers and weighted dips seem to be by far the most effective exercise for most of the pressing strength we need here, but they definitely won't do anything for you until you start practicing the gymnastic progressions.

Heavy bench can help with planche push up variations but it won't do squat for you without the elbow strength, and you're only going to get that through planche progressions and ring support progressions. I have found this out the hard way.

I am also finding out that thoracic mobility has a large impact on all of this, but that's off topic.

In my training, to answer the OP, my progress comes primarily from working in the 15-20s range for 8 sets. Once I perform perfectly for all 8 sets I extend the position an inch or two and repeat. I have been making slow and steady progress in my L-sit, FL, and planche work this way with no injury whatsoever. No small feat for a 230+lb guy! I have experimented with working weighted FL in a more closed position and I can tell you that it honestly doesn't work as well as just doing the progressions inch by inch. Separate strength training sessions for the basic movements with weights can absolutely help, but it's kind of like the mortar in a brick wall... can't make much without the bricks. The gymnastics progressions are your bricks.

Using a weighted belt for PPP work, a weighted vest for HeSPU work (eventually, for singles) and dip progressions can absolutely improve your performance in the unweighted exercises, but if you're just doing weighted PPP and you aren't working on moving your hands closer to your hips then you're not going to be building the strength you need to do the exercise with less leverage. This means you will be limiting your gains and if that is ok with you then that's great. I'm just telling you what your trade-off will be. In my opinion you will be better served by working your statics unweighted and using separate sessions to work your BW gymnastic progressions and perhaps some weighted specific strength work, switching the emphasis but never abandoning either pursuit every few weeks. It works great for me, and the alternation of stimuli is a well-known catalyst for continued development.

[Neal Winkler]

I'm pretty sure that chicks are more impressed by higher progressions over more weight on easier progressions.

Need there be any other reason to chose higher progressions?

[Jay Guindon]

I'm pretty sure that chicks are more impressed by higher progressions over more weight on easier progressions.

Need there be any other reason to chose higher progressions?

Amen

[JL]

There is a guy on youtube who goes by Extremistpullup (sp). If I remember correctly, he claims to have gotten a OAP with only increasing his weighting pullups. He can do something like +180 lbs. for 3 reps or more. Then again, that is bent arm transferring to bent arm strength.

[Joshua Naterman]

It's possible, but being able to do OAC and training consistently without injury are two very different things. That's not to say that he can't train OAC consistently, just that it's different than just doing one once in a while because you can.

[Ryan Libke]

I'm pretty sure that chicks are more impressed by higher progressions over more weight on easier progressions.

Need there be any other reason to chose higher progressions?

This sentiment gets down to the purpose of all training, and answers the whole issue of whether weight training or bodywieght training is superior. Women will be more impressed with a fellow who can do an iron cross than a fellow who can bench press mega-weight. Therefore, it is better to do gymnastic style bodyweight training. As proof, my wife is more impressed with some of the ring stuff that I do than any of the weight stuff that I do. The payoff? None! I'm already married! Still, I have to try to keep her interested somehow, as I don't have much of a personality.

[Neal Winkler]

I'm pretty sure that chicks are more impressed by higher progressions over more weight on easier progressions.

Need there be any other reason to chose higher progressions?

This sentiment gets down to the purpose of all training, and answers the whole issue of whether weight training or bodywieght training is superior. Women will be more impressed with a fellow who can do an iron cross than a fellow who can bench press mega-weight. Therefore, it is better to do gymnastic style bodyweight training. As proof, my wife is more impressed with some of the ring stuff that I do than any of the weight stuff that I do. The payoff? None! I'm already married! Still, I have to try to keep her interested somehow, as I don't have much of a personality.

Yeah, same here. If I told my girlfriend I was going for a PR on my squat, she wouldn't be very excited. If I told her I can do a new gymnastics move, she wants to see it right away.

[Joshua Naterman]

See, this is where I think I am weird. I don't train for chicks. I train because for whatever reason I have an in-born desire to physically challenge myself in as many ways as possible, and build up to the highest level I can. I've always been like this, ever since I was a really little kid. My idea of fun was trying to build a log cabin with dead trees I found or chopped down myself. I did it all alone and by hand. Never got anything built higher than my shoulders, but hey... it's hard work lol!

Still, it is really fun to bust out a few HeSPU between classes, do handstand work, or hang off a tree and do a front lever. It's just not possible to do this stuff without people noticing and saying "DOOOIYAMN! That's awesome, are you a gymnast or something? How do you do that?" or " Ooooh... HELL naw. HELLL NAW!!!!!" I'm always entertained.

[Neal Winkler]

See, this is where I think I am weird. I don't train for chicks. I train because for whatever reason I have an in-born desire to physically challenge myself in as many ways as possible, and build up to the highest level I can. I've always been like this, ever since I was a really little kid. My idea of fun was trying to build a log cabin with dead trees I found or chopped down myself. I did it all alone and by hand. Never got anything built higher than my shoulders, but hey... it's hard work lol!

Still, it is really fun to bust out a few HeSPU between classes, do handstand work, or hang off a tree and do a front lever. It's just not possible to do this stuff without people noticing and saying "DOOOIYAMN! That's awesome, are you a gymnast or something? How do you do that?" or " Ooooh... HELL naw. HELLL NAW!!!!!" I'm always entertained.

It perfectly fine to train for reasons like that and others as well, but to not train for the chicks too is weird. Don't worry though, I don't think you are a danger to society, so we won't have you committed to an insane asylum or anything.

[Joshua Naterman]

HAHAHA!!!!!

What can I say, I am a strange one in that respect!

[sasquatch]

I train for pretty much the same reasons as slizzard. I just like trying to become a beast... I'm far from it though. I do also like looking better for the ladies... to bad I never see any.

[ASForum]

I train for pretty much the same reasons as slizzard. I just like trying to become a beast... I'm far from it though. I do also like looking better for the ladies... to bad I never see any.

lol! u kidding me.. In Hawaii ?

[Nick Van Bockxmeer]

u kidding me hey bro?

the only reason i decided to do a maths/engineering double major is for the chicks. seriously all the hot chicks are doing those classes.

[ASForum]

u kidding me hey bro?

the only reason i decided to do a maths/engineering double major is for the chicks. seriously all the hot chicks are doing those classes.

Ok.. now this is funny.. & satarical.. lol! engg. & girls.. which universe is down under?

[Gregor]

I hear you slizz...For me it's just wanting to be the best and be perfect as it can be.

For chiks? NEVER, IT'S WAY TO HARD TO TRAIN JUST FOR CHIKS, I CAN GET THEM EITHERWAY

I would rather be smaller then taller (even though chiks like taller guys more), but hell it would help me alot in training.

[JL]

I would say women are about 20% of my motivation. A super body is only part of the equation, anyway.

[Erik Sjolin]

It's true. Training for women is the only way to get noticed for me. Sure, I'm breaching circus freak height, but I'm also so skinny that if I turn sideways you lose sight of me. Doing insane stuff like this (at the beach) is the best way to get a few looks my way.