Steady State Training Cycle

[Razz]

Well you got it correct IF you CAN hold 12 sets of 5s which I doubt since it's your max hold. Maybe just extend your tuck planche a little bit to somwhere where your max hold is 15-20s. Then do 6 sets of 10s for that new position. no failure.

[sunshine]

Well you got it correct IF you CAN hold 12 sets of 5s which I doubt since it's your max hold. Maybe just extend your tuck planche a little bit to somwhere where your max hold is 15-20s. Then do 6 sets of 10s for that new position. no failure.

Lets say i can do 2-3 sets of 5s in good form can i go back after these 2-3 to the easier version and do the rest of the 60 sec?

Like this:

3x5s tuck planche = 15s -> 3x15s advance frog stand =45 =60sec ?

[Razz]

I'm sure it will work but if it's optimal I don't know. You can experiment with days where you push intensity for the tuck planche and other days where you do more volume. So if you have 30s tuck planche and 5s adv tuck it could be something like this.

day 1:

3x5s adv tuck

3x10s planche lean

day 2:

5x20s tuck planche

[Joshua Naterman]

Well you got it correct IF you CAN hold 12 sets of 5s which I doubt since it's your max hold. Maybe just extend your tuck planche a little bit to somwhere where your max hold is 15-20s. Then do 6 sets of 10s for that new position. no failure.

Lets say i can do 2-3 sets of 5s in good form can i go back after these 2-3 to the easier version and do the rest of the 60 sec?

Like this:

3x5s tuck planche = 15s -> 3x15s advance frog stand =45 =60sec ?

Not a good idea if all you can do is 2-3 sets of 5 sec tuck!

If all you are doing is 15s frogstand then you are nowhere NEAR ready. To give you an idea, I can probably hold a 10s tuck on the floor. I still can't do perfect 60s frogstand! So, here is how I am structuring my planche work:

60s planche leans for warm up. I keep my heels against the wall and have marked the floor so I start at the same place every time. I will move my hands back a half inch to an inch when I go for 5-8 weeks feeling absolutely no strain or difficulty and repeat. These should be considered therapeutic and nothing but a warm up. These should NOT make you tired.

1 set touch and go adv frogstand, 60s. I probably touch my toes to the ground 3-5 times. I get better each time and my elbows stay perfectly straight for a few seconds longer. I concentrate on good form. Now, part of the reason I allow my elbows to bend VERY SLIGHTLY is that I am rehabbing an old injury. For you, I would suggest starting with 4x20s adv frog 3 days a week. When that gets fairly easy you can add time one of two ways: Add 3-5 seconds to your first set, then when that feels comfortable add the same amount of time to your second set, third, and finally fourth set. Keep doing this until you're doing 4x 40s or so. At this point you'll get more out of 3x50s and you should be able to do that.

Do not move forward with time, sets, or anything else until your form is perfect. My form is perfect for the first 30-40s of my frogstands, and I am switching things slightly so that I only do the long set once a week.

You must remember that tendons take a long time to heal and grow stronger, so you must be patient if you intend to condition your biceps tendon for hard work. My fingers are backwards for almost all sets, which is much harder but also conditions the biceps tendon to a greater degree. This is a personal choice, and I have chosen to progress more slowly in the beginning because this will more directly prepare my tendons for Iron Cross training and everything else along the way.

Now, applying this knowledge and experience to YOUR condition, here is what I think you should be doing:

1x30-45s perfect, easy planche lean. Fingers to the side or back, as fingers forward really doesn't do that much for the biceps tendon.

3x20s advanced frog, until form is PERFECT. 2 weeks of consistent perfection is the absolute minimum you should achieve before adding a fourth set or adding time to your first three. The more time you spend in advanced frog, the more you will benefit from it.

If you WANT to, and I don't think this is a bad idea, I'd do one hard tuck day every 10 days. That's all you'll need and really all your biceps tendon can handle. That's just to remind your body that you want it to be strong in the tuck position! If you're doing the WODs this will probably not be necessary, but it will at least give you peace of mind knowing you can still do the tuck.

Do not try to train the tuck more often than that, regardless of how long you can hold it, until you can do at least 1 perfect set of 60s advanced frog for 3-4 weeks straight. When you achieve that, just use one set of advanced frog for 40-60s as your warm up for planche work. You should hold a 60s adv frog at least once a week once you achieve it. That is very important.

[sunshine]

I hope its ok that i post some sentences from the book if not plz delete it!

"When you are capable of performing a static hold for longer than 15 seconds,

you should proceed onward to the next harder variation; provided you can

hold that new variation for at least three to five seconds. If you are unable to

hold the next variation for three to five seconds, you should continue training

with your current variation while experimenting with the new to begin to

establish a foundation of familiarity from which to work the new variation

from."

So my suggestion isn't wrong, isn't it?

That means if i can hold an "advance frog stand" for more than 15sec. i have to move to the next hard version.

And if i'm unable to hold the new version for 3-5sec i get back but try the new version at the beginnig of the training.

Now my question:

How do i plan my steady state cycle if i can hold it only for "7" sec should i divided by to and do for example 15x3-4sec?

Or stay with 7 sec. and doing them for 8weeks...?

[Cole Dano]

Don't be too literal sunshine. Spending more time with the previous level isn't wrong. The ground level FSP's really need to be worked throughly to build a good foundation to advance from. The key one's being L-sit, frog, and support holds from what i've understood.

The book is a little unclear on this point but search through the forum and you will see this constantly being emphasized.

[Razz]

So my suggestion isn't wrong, isn't it?

Frogstands might be an exception to that because they really are more about elbow conditioning and balance than true strength, strength comes into play more from the tucked position and onwards.

[ASForum]

Don't be too literal sunshine. Spending more time with the previous level isn't wrong. The ground level FSP's really need to be worked throughly to build a good foundation to advance from. The key one's being L-sit, frog, and support holds from what i've understood.

The book is a little unclear on this point but search through the forum and you will see this constantly being emphasized.

Golden point.

[Joshua Naterman]

I hope its ok that i post some sentences from the book if not plz delete it!

"When you are capable of performing a static hold for longer than 15 seconds,

you should proceed onward to the next harder variation; provided you can

hold that new variation for at least three to five seconds. If you are unable to

hold the next variation for three to five seconds, you should continue training

with your current variation while experimenting with the new to begin to

establish a foundation of familiarity from which to work the new variation

from."

So my suggestion isn't wrong, isn't it?

That means if i can hold an "advance frog stand" for more than 15sec. i have to move to the next hard version.

And if i'm unable to hold the new version for 3-5sec i get back but try the new version at the beginnig of the training.

Now my question:

How do i plan my steady state cycle if i can hold it only for "7" sec should i divided by to and do for example 15x3-4sec?

Or stay with 7 sec. and doing them for 8weeks...?

You are, in fact wrong. It is not your fault, since the book is not clear. That 15 second guideline is for the harder variations, and the reason you only need a 15 second straddle planche to start working on full lay is that the leverage is already so low that by that point your biceps tendon will be ready for full planche.

In the beginning, it is very important to build a 60s frogstand, advanced frogstand, tuck, and advanced tuck planche. Coach commented on this in one of my recent posts on a similar thread. These four beginning positions are much, much easier than straddle planche, and their primary purposes are to A) build the muscular strength necessary for straddle/full lay and B) develop the biceps tendon to the point where it can handle the strain of a straddle or full lay planche hold with straight arms.

You can do what you like, but I have already outlined exactly what your course of action should be right now. If you continue to follow your current line of thinking you will most likely be the latest addition to our "injured through improper training" list. There's nothing wrong with being there, if that's where you want to be.

[ASForum]

I hope its ok that i post some sentences from the book if not plz delete it!

"When you are capable of performing a static hold for longer than 15 seconds,

you should proceed onward to the next harder variation; provided you can

hold that new variation for at least three to five seconds. If you are unable to

hold the next variation for three to five seconds, you should continue training

with your current variation while experimenting with the new to begin to

establish a foundation of familiarity from which to work the new variation

from."

So my suggestion isn't wrong, isn't it?

That means if i can hold an "advance frog stand" for more than 15sec. i have to move to the next hard version.

And if i'm unable to hold the new version for 3-5sec i get back but try the new version at the beginnig of the training.

Now my question:

How do i plan my steady state cycle if i can hold it only for "7" sec should i divided by to and do for example 15x3-4sec?

Or stay with 7 sec. and doing them for 8weeks...?

You are, in fact wrong. It is not your fault, since the book is not clear. That 15 second guideline is for the harder variations, and the reason you only need a 15 second straddle planche to start working on full lay is that the leverage is already so low that by that point your biceps tendon will be ready for full planche.

In the beginning, it is very important to build a 60s frogstand, advanced frogstand, tuck, and advanced tuck planche. Coach commented on this in one of my recent posts on a similar thread. These four beginning positions are much, much easier than straddle planche, and their primary purposes are to A) build the muscular strength necessary for straddle/full lay and B) develop the biceps tendon to the point where it can handle the strain of a straddle or full lay planche hold with straight arms.

You can do what you like, but I have already outlined exactly what your course of action should be right now. If you continue to follow your current line of thinking you will most likely be the latest addition to our "injured through improper training" list. There's nothing wrong with being there, if that's where you want to be.

Noting this down.

[Joshua Naterman]

You can do what you like, but I have already outlined exactly what your course of action should be right now. If you continue to follow your current line of thinking you will most likely be the latest addition to our "injured through improper training" list. There's nothing wrong with being there, if that's where you want to be.

Just so you know, I ended up on that list myself. I'm currently getting myself off the list. It has taken what is now 9 months, almost, because I was stupid and didn't understand what was going on with my body.

Sunshine, I would love to see you avoid the mistakes that I and quite a number of other forum members have made.

[Stewart Whaley]

"injured through improper training" list.

As a member of "the list" I highly recommend following their advice.

I'd much rather err on the "too slow" side with elbows and wrists.

Go slow now or go a lot slower later.

[Enchiridion]

So what's the reason for doing only 50% of your max for several sets for the statics? It conditions the tendons? Your tendons will get hurt if you go stronger than that? You'll attain the positions faster this way than with another way?

[Joshua Naterman]

The tendons heal around 10 times slower than the muscles, because of the poor blood supply to the tendons themselves. This means they can heal less damage.

Low leverage positions are much harder on the tendons than high leverage positions, because of the joint angles they have to maintain and because a small shift in position results in much more force than in high leverage positions. Because of this, you have to be careful to not do too much damage at any one time. To accomplish this, we do our sets at 50% of maximum hold time in a position that we can hold for at LEAST 15-20 seconds max. This keeps us from being in a high intensity situation, which could easily cause more damage to the tendons than they are capable of healing from. That would cause a degenerative condition that would end up with tendonitis/osis as the result. Many of us have experienced this when pushing beyond this boundary.

That is the primary difference between developing strength in low leverage positions versus high leverage positions.

There is also the issue of nervous system fatigue, but in the beginning that's not AS big of a deal. It is hard for beginners to fatigue themselves because they literally can't work near their current potential due to CNS inefficiency. As the CNS becomes more efficient and the body learns to work closer to it's true current capacity the issue of CNS fatigue becomes more prevalent.

[Enchiridion]

The tendons heal around 10 times slower than the muscles, because of the poor blood supply to the tendons themselves. This means they can heal less damage.

Low leverage positions are much harder on the tendons than high leverage positions, because of the joint angles they have to maintain and because a small shift in position results in much more force than in high leverage positions. Because of this, you have to be careful to not do too much damage at any one time. To accomplish this, we do our sets at 50% of maximum hold time in a position that we can hold for at LEAST 15-20 seconds max. This keeps us from being in a high intensity situation, which could easily cause more damage to the tendons than they are capable of healing from. That would cause a degenerative condition that would end up with tendonitis/osis as the result. Many of us have experienced this when pushing beyond this boundary.

That is the primary difference between developing strength in low leverage positions versus high leverage positions.

There is also the issue of nervous system fatigue, but in the beginning that's not AS big of a deal. It is hard for beginners to fatigue themselves because they literally can't work near their current potential due to CNS inefficiency. As the CNS becomes more efficient and the body learns to work closer to it's true current capacity the issue of CNS fatigue becomes more prevalent.

So for any other exercise that isn't low-leverage, i.e. anything other than statics, iron cross, etc., SSC isn't necessary? I.e. you can go through all the FBE's without doing them SSC?

[Razz]

Personally I would never use a SSC for chin ups/dips and the like. But if you're a competitive athlete that has to be able to perform routines after your strength work then it might be a different case!

[Aaron Griffin]

You are, in fact wrong. It is not your fault, since the book is not clear. That 15 second guideline is for the harder variations, and the reason you only need a 15 second straddle planche to start working on full lay is that the leverage is already so low that by that point your biceps tendon will be ready for full planche.

In the beginning, it is very important to build a 60s frogstand, advanced frogstand, tuck, and advanced tuck planche. Coach commented on this in one of my recent posts on a similar thread. These four beginning positions are much, much easier than straddle planche, and their primary purposes are to A) build the muscular strength necessary for straddle/full lay and B) develop the biceps tendon to the point where it can handle the strain of a straddle or full lay planche hold with straight arms.

I just recently got the book, so I was confused by this as well. Let me see if I understand this. I should follow the "test for max, and use 50% for N reps totaling 60s", but NOT move forward at the 15s mark until the harder version. The earlier versions, I should wait until the test time is a full 60, correct?

I am working on planche, l-sit, back lever, and front lever. Is this true for ALL of these FSPs, or only the pushing ones? Is the steady-state time frame still 8 weeks? Elsewhere in this thread it mentioned testing every 4 weeks....

I'm so confused. :S

[Michael Miskelly]

I just recently got the book, so I was confused by this as well. Let me see if I understand this. I should follow the "test for max, and use 50% for N reps totaling 60s", but NOT move forward at the 15s mark until the harder version. The earlier versions, I should wait until the test time is a full 60, correct?

I am working on planche, l-sit, back lever, and front lever. Is this true for ALL of these FSPs, or only the pushing ones? Is the steady-state time frame still 8 weeks? Elsewhere in this thread it mentioned testing every 4 weeks....

I'm so confused. :S

My understanding is that it is true for all FSP's, you work up to 60sec holds in the tucked and advanced tuck positions but when you get to straddle and half lay a 15sec hold should be enough to advance to the next progression. I say should because you can't tell from one person to another if this is fact so personally I practice the straddle/half lay progression up to a SOLID 15sec and then just try the next progression and see how I feel. Even when I get to the next step I still continue using the previous as a warm up hold to maintain my conditioning in the hold.

I think Steady state time can be 8 to 12 weeks it just depends on how well you the individual is adjusting to the holds. Again nobody can tell someone how they will respond, it is up to you to listen to your body. When you feel that your current 50% holds are too easy and you are keeping solid form throughout them then think about testing your max again. I would stick to 8 weeks, it seems to work for most people. Hopefully your less confused.

[Aaron Griffin]

My understanding is that it is true for all FSP's, you work up to 60sec holds in the tucked and advanced tuck positions but when you get to straddle and half lay a 15sec hold should be enough to advance to the next progression. I say should because you can't tell from one person to another if this is fact so personally I practice the straddle/half lay progression up to a SOLID 15sec and then just try the next progression and see how I feel. Even when I get to the next step I still continue using the previous as a warm up hold to maintain my conditioning in the hold.

I think Steady state time can be 8 to 12 weeks it just depends on how well you the individual is adjusting to the holds. Again nobody can tell someone how they will respond, it is up to you to listen to your body. When you feel that your current 50% holds are too easy and you are keeping solid form throughout them then think about testing your max again. I would stick to 8 weeks, it seems to work for most people. Hopefully your less confused.

Any harm in doing ALL FSP progressions to 60s? I get that it'd duplicate work, but that's a long ways off - it's better if I don't have to notate things for months in the future

This helps. Thanks

[Cole Dano]

Harm i don't want to say, but it may be for some elements that its just not realistic. Stick with the Coaches recommendations, as he has taken many many athletes through them successfully.

[Joshua Naterman]

So for any other exercise that isn't low-leverage, i.e. anything other than statics, iron cross, etc., SSC isn't necessary? I.e. you can go through all the FBE's without doing them SSC?

Yes, you could, and in reality you probably will. Unlike with the FSP, where you should be striving to replicate the exact same position each workout, with the FBE you should be trying to do them more perfectly each time they come up. From month to month you should be seeing steady increases in your ability in each. That increase will primarily come as better form, and when you can't do things any more perfectly then you will start to work on the next progression!

The same rule of not going 100% all out with them still applies, you won't do yourself any favors if you wreck yourself so bad in the first 3 sets that you can't do a proper 4th OR if you get so tired that the rest of the week has to be scaled abnormally low. Work hard, but not too hard.

[ASForum]

So for any other exercise that isn't low-leverage, i.e. anything other than statics, iron cross, etc., SSC isn't necessary? I.e. you can go through all the FBE's without doing them SSC?

Yes, you could, and in reality you probably will. Unlike with the FSP, where you should be striving to replicate the exact same position each workout, with the FBE you should be trying to do them more perfectly each time they come up. From month to month you should be seeing steady increases in your ability in each. That increase will primarily come as better form, and when you can't do things any more perfectly then you will start to work on the next progression!

The same rule of not going 100% all out with them still applies, you won't do yourself any favors if you wreck yourself so bad in the first 3 sets that you can't do a proper 4th OR if you get so tired that the rest of the week has to be scaled abnormally low. Work hard, but not too hard.

Quality in Form over quanity..

[Aaron Griffin]

Harm i don't want to say, but it may be for some elements that its just not realistic. Stick with the Coaches recommendations, as he has taken many many athletes through them successfully.

Ok... but where can I find these recommendations? I've only seen this thread indicate that everything is a 60s hold, except the straddle planche which is 15s. The book says completely different. So where, precisely, is "the Coaches recommendations"? He hasn't posted in this thread, has he?

[Joshua Naterman]

Phrak... by chance a Battlestar Galactica fan?!

You've asked great questions. We have gone over this at the seminars, and as I have put out in many places on this forum recently you want a 60s hold up to and including flat tuck for BL, PL, and FL before you start messing with straddle. You want a 15s straddle before you start messing with half or full lay. That's straight from the Coach. He doesn't have the time to keep saying this stuff, which is why I keep repeating it. As we get new people, the same questions pop up, which is to be expected. Coach is hard at work preparing the second edition of BtGB which should have a LOT more beginner info, with many more clarifications and additions than just the static hold time questions.

If you're waiting to see Coach Sommer post personally on this question, I just don't know what to do for you. He's writing 4 books, updating one, AND coaching a top tier competitive team. He just doesn't have the time to answer questions like this that I and the other seminar attendees can answer for him.

Ok, this paragraph sounds kind of strange to me, so just keep in mind that I'm not bragging or anything. I am just trying to give you as clear of an idea as I can about where the information I share here comes from. I'm a moderator here because I have been to several seminars, I do everything I can to help out everyone here and I have learned an awful lot about how this program is meant to run, both from experience and from Coach directly. I have had many of the same questions you and everyone else here has had, and luckily I have been able to ask him everything directly, face to face. You are getting first-hand stuff from me unless I state otherwise. I do have my own opinions about many things, and if anything I say is anything besides a direct quote of Coach I make sure and explain that it is my personal opinion. That sort of thing generally only happens in threads that are not BtGB or GB related. I have literally been involved with fitness, both directly as an athlete and more academically as a long-time reader of pretty much everything I can get my hands on, and I have had a lot of experience with aspects of fitness that lie outside of this program's scope as well, so when people ask things I am often able to give my first-hand experiences as examples. When I can't, I make sure to either immediately do some research on the topic or I refer the question to someone here or elsewhere who has the experience I lack. I love finding answers and learning what is true and what works. That is my passion, and that is why I love this program.

Coach is very good about double-checking what I and the other moderators write, so if he doesn't come in and correct us (which he does when we mis-word something or flat out get it wrong, which has happened to me maybe 3 times in the last 6 months) then you can be fairly certain that we're on point! I'm writing this to let you know where my information is coming from so that you know it's good, which will hopefully give you some peace of mind. Don't worry, you are far from the first person to be confused by this! We are hoping that the 2nd edition of BtGB will handle many of these issues.

Welcome to the forum! Keep asking questions when you have them, we have a very supportive community here that is happy to do everything we can to ensure your success.

[Aaron Griffin]

If you're waiting to see Coach Sommer post personally on this question, I just don't know what to do for you. He's writing 4 books, updating one, AND coaching a top tier competitive team. He just doesn't have the time to answer questions like this that I and the other seminar attendees can answer for him.

Well I never expected an actual answer to the question from Coach Sommer. However, errata is very important for beginners. If there are common discrepancies in the book that should be corrected, perhaps it needs to be more visible. If the moderators are all knowledgeable, then might I suggest either an Errata forum, with individual items (locked down, moderators only) or possible a main sticky thread with all the book errata collected?