Short vs tight muscles

[Jin Liu]

Is there an easy way to tell whether the limit in your rom is caused by a short muscle or a tight muscle? Below is what I found on the internet:

A tight muscle is usually caused by overload, and is unable to relax. Stretching a ton may cause more tension on it, and be counter productive. Is it true?

A short muscle may be structurally unable to reach certain range, but stretching can help gradually lengthen it, and thus increase its rom. Is it true? 

Can people tell whether your muscle is too tight just by the touch of it? My doc once made a comment that I have tight shoulders just by briefly touching my shoulders. It was not why I came in for, so she didn’t go any further on that subject. But her comment surprised me as I consider my shoulders pretty flexible.. But is flexible = not tight?

Which case would take more time to improve, a short muscle or a tight muscle? I feel some of my body parts respond faster to stretching, but not others, esp. hamstring. Says hamstring is a famous short muscle. Are you screwed if your hamstring is both short and tight? Lol! Maybe I should just give it more time and stop overthinking it? 

 

[Suzanna McGee]

I have a little observation about this myself… those muscles that are weak and constantly abused, get really tight on me and hard to stretch… for example, I have noticed that my hip-flexors are really weak. I never thought about them, I thought they get so much workout in all the other exercises… and the hip-flexors were SO tight. Last 5 weeks I've been putting a serious focus into strengthening my hip-flexors. It's been a huge difference (positive) and guess what? Now when I stretch them, they let go much faster. Thus, they are stronger, but less tight… similar observations I had before, when I used to play tennis daily. Calves, always tight. I thought they were getting the "workout" during bouncing around on the court all day long, but actually, later I realized they were really weak. As soon as I strengthened them, they let go during the stretching...

All this makes me question about the whole hip-situation with me… the hips are so tight in the external rotation especially when the hip is flexed. And my adductors are tight all the time… maybe they are just really weak and thus tight? Maybe I need to do a serious "boot camp" for them, something that I've just done for my hip-flexors? 

Not an answer to your question, I hope the coaches will explain to us, but I have similar observations like you  :-) and some ideas for solutions… just curious if I am on the right track. 

[Jin Liu]

I’m wondering if by paying more attention to certain muscles, you are also forcing them to relax, while at the same time the muscles are being strengthened? I think the ability to quickly contract and relax makes a muscle strong too. Or maybe I’m having it backwards.. I’m no expert!

[Étienne Lajeunesse]

Hey Jin, 

You first have to look at it as joint stability.  Oftentimes, as we get used to some postures, we tend to lose some control over our joints due to muscles inactivity.   But our body still needs stability to make sure to not hurt ourselves and that's where movement compensation occurs. 

Muscle stiffness is one symptom of instable joint(s). If you tried to stretch a muscle without noticing or noticing only little improvements, maybe you should check for compensations.  So yeah, in this case, tight muscle could get tighter to stabilize your joints.

Overstretching is another case of tightness.

Otherwise, stretching is, as you said it, a way to make the muscle elasticity more fluent with better ROM.

You'll feel it if your muscles are tight. And yeah, hard fascia layers (or knots as we call it) can be felt just by touching them.

To recap, if it feels tight, try to see if you have instable joints or big fascia layers.  If all's good, keep stretching, but don't forget to strengthen!

Hope it helps

 

[Jesus Molina]

In my experience, I'd say a tight muscle would take longer to improve because of posture issues. However, "short" muscles should improve as long as the work is put in. How much improvemnt specifically would likely depend on the individual though.

Imo, I wouldn't necessarily say being able to contract and relax would make a muscle stronger but rather more resilient and efficient. Wells that's my two cents...

 

[Jin Liu]

Thanks @Étienne Lajeunesse. Your point is interesting. It's also similar what @Suzanna McGee was saying too, regarding strengthening the stiff muscles. Take the hamstring for example again, I normally wouldn't think my two joints (hip and knee) connecting to the hamstring are weak or unstable. I do weighted squats regularly, and can do 15-20 single leg squats each side. But maybe those do not expose the problem? Maybe my joints are not what I think they are. If any one knows an easy way to test it, I'm all ears. 

I have to say my hamstrings did improve since I started GB. Especially my left one, which was injured two years ago. It was painful, and its rom reduced by at least a half. The pain is completely gone now, after I started GB, and always do the iM after each PE. Ever since I started the stretch series last September, however, I haven't noticed a significant improvement in my hamstring flexibility. I noticed some improvements in hips (middle split) and upper back (thoracic bridge), but the hammies are stubborn. Sometimes they are loose and stretch really good, other times tight and won't let go. It's been the later case lately, even after two weeks of not doing the front split. Maybe I should be focusing more on relaxing them, as opposed to overly stretching them...

[Étienne Lajeunesse]

15 minutes ago, Jin Liu said:

Thanks @Étienne Lajeunesse. Your point is interesting. It's also similar what @Suzanna McGee was saying too, regarding strengthening the stiff muscles. Take the hamstring for example again, I normally wouldn't think my two joints (hip and knee) connecting to the hamstring are weak or unstable. I do weighted squats regularly, and can do 15-20 single leg squats each side. But maybe those do not expose the problem? Maybe my joints are not what I think they are. If any one knows an easy way to test it, I'm all ears. 

I have to say my hamstrings did improve since I started GB. Especially my left one, which was injured two years ago. It was painful, and its rom reduced by at least a half. The pain is completely gone now, after I started GB, and always do the iM after each PE. Ever since I started the stretch series last September, however, I haven't noticed a significant improvement in my hamstring flexibility. I noticed some improvements in hips (middle split) and upper back (thoracic bridge), but the hammies are stubborn. Sometimes they are loose and stretch really good, other times tight and won't let go. It's been the later case lately, even after two weeks of not doing the front split. Maybe I should be focusing more on relaxing them, as opposed to overly stretching them...

As we all know, stretching could take a lot of time to improve, so patience is the key here.  

For hamstrings stabilization, it often starts with weakness in the glutes extensions.  I'm not saying it's the case, it's just for your own information

[Christopher Hancox]

There can quite often be neuralogical reasons some muscles won't let go. Stretching is a highly personal thing and therefore different approaches are needed for different people. At least until your body learns to relax.

In my personal experience, I can't actually get my hamstrings to relax in standard straight leg stretches such as a standing pike. My neural response to a standard hamstring stretch makes the hamstring fire as a protection mechanism. This means I am not actually getting any stretch and am instead putting my body into a perceived stressful situation. Possibly the least productive state to be in during a stretch!

I now use supported, bent legged stretch variations for as many stretches as possible. This way I am telling my muscles it is ok to relax. Progress since has been very good.

[Étienne Lajeunesse]

4 minutes ago, Christopher Hancox said:

There can quite often be neuralogical reasons some muscles won't let go. Stretching is a highly personal thing and therefore different approaches are needed for different people. At least until your body learns to relax.

In my personal experience, I can't actually get my hamstrings to relax in standard straight leg stretches such as a standing pike. My neural response to a standard hamstring stretch makes the hamstring fire as a protection mechanism. This means I am not actually getting any stretch and am instead putting my body into a perceived stressful situation. Possibly the least productive state to be in during a stretch!

I now use supported, bent legged stretch variations for as many stretches as possible. This way I am telling my muscles it is ok to relax. Progress since has been very good.

Hey Christopher, 

Do you usually squeeze your antagonist muscle when you stretch?  

[Jin Liu]

6 minutes ago, Étienne Lajeunesse said:

Hey Christopher, 

Do you usually squeeze your antagonist muscle when you stretch?  

That's a good reminder to myself too

[Christopher Hancox]

23 minutes ago, Étienne Lajeunesse said:

Hey Christopher, 

Do you usually squeeze your antagonist muscle when you stretch?  

Hi Étienne, 

Yes, I usually go through a sequence of cues during each stretch. Strangely, different cues work on releasing different muscles.

[Étienne Lajeunesse]

1 hour ago, Christopher Hancox said:

Hi Étienne, 

Yes, I usually go through a sequence of cues during each stretch. Strangely, different cues work on releasing different muscles.

Yeah, it always depends (like we all say) but certain cues are better to be applied all the time to put every chance on our side

[Jin Liu]

The front split today went a lot better! What I did differently was I relaxed my leg muscles & glutes by doing foam rolling before the stretch, also minded my breathing to relax the hammies more during the stretch. It worked well. The hammies let go today!  

So I foam rolled the crap out of my legs today (but maybe I don't have to keep doing this going forward) before stretching. The reason is because during my WL training session with my coach today, he used one thumb to press into the outer side of my thigh, and I was screaming in pain. Apparently there's a thin layer of muscle on the outer side of the leg (I've already forgotten the name), I NEVER realized how tight it was. It was so painful when I rolled it out on the foam. While I was rolling in agony, coach was mildly amused, and said I have to roll those legs at least 2x a day before they get better. So I'll be doing a lot of rolling these days. But loose muscles do make stretching much easier

[Étienne Lajeunesse]

1 minute ago, Jin Liu said:

The front split today went a lot better! What I did differently was I relaxed my leg muscles & glutes by doing foam rolling before the stretch, also minded my breathing to relax the hammies more during the stretch. It worked well. The hammies let go today!  

So I foam rolled the crap out of my legs today (but maybe I don't have to keep doing this going forward) before stretching. The reason is because during my WL training session with my coach today, he used one thumb to press into the outer side of my thigh, and I was screaming in pain. Apparently there's a thin layer of muscle on the outer side of the leg (I've already forgotten the name), I NEVER realized how tight it was. It was so painful when I rolled it out on the foam. While I was rolling in agony, coach was mildly amused, and said I have to roll those legs at least 2x a day before they get better. So I'll be doing a lot of rolling these days. But loose muscles do make stretching much easier

Yeah, generally speaking, we all have tight quads.

 Are you talking about the TFL?

I do foam rolling too, part of my warm-up! 

[Jin Liu]

2 minutes ago, Étienne Lajeunesse said:

Yeah, generally speaking, we all have tight quads.

 Are you talking about the TFL?

I do foam rolling too, part of my warm-up! 

I didn't get how beneficial foam rolling can be. But now I'm a believer! I usually just do stretching and not the rolling. Now I understand they are for different purposes.

What's TFL? I'm looking at these anatomy picture of the side of the leg, and I think the most likely is the ITB (is that even a muscle?). When my coach pressed it, it was really in the middle of the outer thigh, equal distance between the front and the rear sides of the leg, and slightly closer to the knee as opposed to the hip. And it was not in the deep tissue, felt like right on the surface...

[Étienne Lajeunesse]

5 minutes ago, Jin Liu said:

I didn't get how beneficial foam rolling can be. But now I'm a believer! I usually just do stretching and not the rolling. Now I understand they are for different purposes.

What's TFL? I'm looking at these anatomy picture of the side of the leg, and I think the most likely is the ITB (is that even a muscle?). When my coach pressed it, it was really in the middle of the outer thigh, equal distance between the front and the rear sides of the leg, and slightly closer to the knee as opposed to the hip. And it was not in the deep tissue, felt like right on the surface...

If you don't do it already, try foam rolling for 2-3 min on one muscle.  You'll see the difference.

Here Tensor Fasciae Latae (TFL)

[Suzanna McGee]

21 minutes ago, Jin Liu said:

and I think the most likely is the ITB

Yes, the IT band… a pesky little thing in many athletes… especially if your gluteus (med) doesn't fire when it should, the IT band takes a lot of load… in my tennis athletes, who do tons of lateral movement, they have all messed up (tight) IT bands. Until the gluteus medius get strong enough. But is it ever strong enough?  Enjoy the foam rolling, Jin. I've been rolling for over 20 years, even before it became popular… at that time I had a plastic pipe… ouch. But I think that's what kept me injury-free for all these years. 

[Étienne Lajeunesse]

Yeah, but the IT band is attached to the TFL.  Since the band is not a muscle, the tightness generally starts from the hips/TFL/Glutes.

[Antonio Alías Montoya]

On 13/1/2018 at 3:50 AM, Suzanna McGee said:

I have a little observation about this myself… those muscles that are weak and constantly abused, get really tight on me and hard to stretch… for example, I have noticed that my hip-flexors are really weak. I never thought about them, I thought they get so much workout in all the other exercises… and the hip-flexors were SO tight. Last 5 weeks I've been putting a serious focus into strengthening my hip-flexors. It's been a huge difference (positive) and guess what? Now when I stretch them, they let go much faster. Thus, they are stronger, but less tight…

Very interesting Suzzana. I d love to know which exercises are you doing for stregthening your hip flexors, some from GB maybe? I have the same problem, tight hip flexors and they don t relax. 

[Jin Liu]

Thanks @Étienne Lajeunesse and @Suzanna McGee! I agree that my hips/TFL/glutes are probably tight as well. I rolled out the glutes, esp. the part where hamstring is attached yesterday, and they are very sore today, like I did some crazy glutes workout. But yesterday was my rest day, and I did nothing but rolling...

So strong glutes (med) will help take the load off the IT band? Good to know! Now I need to pay more attention to my glutes activation when doing lower body workouts. I had many occasions when people told me how good it is to roll on a foam. I was so dumb to ignore them, until today! I guess I need to scream in pain before I learn to accept something new... not very smart 

[Étienne Lajeunesse]

@Antonio Alías Montoya,

Maybe Suzanna has some exercises on here own but most GB hips compression are good for that.  But like I said in earlier posts, look at your glutes too, maybe your hip flexors are compensating for some hips weaknesses you could have.

@Jin Liu,

No problem Jin! Try to foam roll your hip flexors/TFL to help with your glutes/hamstrings stiffness, it will open them.  Or, the other way around, strengthen your glutes to stabilize your hip flexors (TFL-ITB). Have fun with the roller!  

Remember this thread? I tried those in the article and it WORKS!!!

 

[Christopher Hancox]

9 hours ago, Jin Liu said:

The front split today went a lot better! What I did differently was I relaxed my leg muscles & glutes by doing foam rolling before the stretch, also minded my breathing to relax the hammies more during the stretch. It worked well. The hammies let go today!  

So I foam rolled the crap out of my legs today (but maybe I don't have to keep doing this going forward) before stretching. The reason is because during my WL training session with my coach today, he used one thumb to press into the outer side of my thigh, and I was screaming in pain. Apparently there's a thin layer of muscle on the outer side of the leg (I've already forgotten the name), I NEVER realized how tight it was. It was so painful when I rolled it out on the foam. While I was rolling in agony, coach was mildly amused, and said I have to roll those legs at least 2x a day before they get better. So I'll be doing a lot of rolling these days. But loose muscles do make stretching much easier

Here's some further info I have recently found. The sore points you talk about are actually trigger points. They are where the motor control nerve enters the muscle to tell it to fire. The book by Davies and Davies called 'The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook' has all these point mapped out with the correct self massage techniques. 

Foam rolling is great for a few muscles but, for example, infraspinatus, supraspinatus and pectoralis minor would be impossible to get with a roller. A lacrosse ball or theracane would be a much better option for these.

[Nick Murray]

@Jin Liu said "Take the hamstring for example again, I normally wouldn't think my two joints (hip and knee) connecting to the hamstring are weak or unstable. I do weighted squats regularly, and can do 15-20 single leg squats each side"

Google "somatosensory cortex" and "motor cortex". The somatosensory cortex is the part of the brain that senses information (position, pressure, orientation, tension) from the body. The motor cortex is the part that sends message, via nerves, to make your muscles work.

Oversimplifying this a LOT, you're stable in a squat because you've trained it. Training is specific. Therefore, you need to train for a straddle (for example). The somatosensory cortex simply won't let you get into a position or posture that it (and other parts of your brain) thinks are a "threat" ...somehow.

Training the glute exercises Etienne mentioned (in the glute exercise thread, or Google cirque physio glutes) help as they train glutes & hip flexors in the front and straddle positions.

[Étienne Lajeunesse]

1 hour ago, Nick Murray said:

@Jin Liu said "Take the hamstring for example again, I normally wouldn't think my two joints (hip and knee) connecting to the hamstring are weak or unstable. I do weighted squats regularly, and can do 15-20 single leg squats each side"

Google "somatosensory cortex" and "motor cortex". The somatosensory cortex is the part of the brain that senses information (position, pressure, orientation, tension) from the body. The motor cortex is the part that sends message, via nerves, to make your muscles work.

Oversimplifying this a LOT, you're stable in a squat because you've trained it. Training is specific. Therefore, you need to train for a straddle (for example). The somatosensory cortex simply won't let you get into a position or posture that it (and other parts of your brain) thinks are a "threat" ...somehow.

Training the glute exercises Etienne mentioned (in the glute exercise thread, or Google cirque physio glutes) help as they train glutes & hip flexors in the front and straddle positions.

Good complementary info Nick!

[Jin Liu]

Awesome info guys! Thank you all so much. 

@Christopher Hancox I was going to ask about trigger points, and if anyone can suggest a book. Great timing!! Does hitting the trigger points help releasing the tension more effectively? I'll read the book you recommended  

@Étienne Lajeunesse and @Nick Murray I will try those glutes exercises today. Nick you found my words. I had a feeling that the squats may be the cause of the problem (tight and/or neglected weak muscles), and so squats may not expose the problem. Strength is relative. My glutes may not be weak for air squats, but probably not strong enough for the kind of external load used in my weighted squats, and I keep compensating by using some other body parts, such as IT band, as @Suzanna McGee pointed out. 

I learned so much from you guys! Thank you!!