First Knuckle / Dorsal Push-ups

[Patrick Patterson]

Hello all-

Could someone please either post, or point me to, a video of a correctly performed first knuckle push-up and dorsal push-up? I'm familiar with the video of the kids doing the wrist series, however all they do is hop up and down with their elbows locked. I've been doing wrist push-ups as well as what I think are 1st knuckle and dorsal push ups for almost a year now... and while I've had great strides in my wrist push-ups, the other two exercises are exactly as they where when I began. I've searched and scoured and read every description, however, a video of these two would be SO helpful. Thanks!

[Neal Winkler]

Besides the video with the kids, I've never seen anyone do them.

[Joshua Naterman]

Coach has a video of dorsal push ups on the gymnasticbodies youtube channel. I'll make a first knuckle video soon.

[Blairbob]

Thanks, Lizard. No camera anymore has really limited my ability to make videos and train using it. One day, the screen just got all buggered. It still records, but it's sort of a guess on what setting it is besides no instant replay or LCD controls.

[Neal Winkler]

Coach has a video of dorsal push ups on the gymnasticbodies youtube channel. I'll make a first knuckle video soon.

You're thinking of wrist pushups. That's the only video on the channel.

[Joshua Naterman]

The wrist push ups video is dorsal push ups. I don't remember if it says so or not, but coach has mentioned it before. I can NOT do those in a full push up position lol!

The first knuckle is pretty easy for me. Or it was, who knows how they feel now.

[Neal Winkler]

The dorsal pushup you rotate your fingers inwards so that they are facing the feet (if you have enough internal rotation ROM to get that far) and the thumbs out to the side.

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=860&p=4433&hilit=+dorsal#p4433

[Patrick Patterson]

Hi All-

Yes the video the Coach had posted is of the wrist push-ups. The other two (first knuckle and dorsal) seem to have a lot of people confused and asking for clarification (myself included) and yet no one has been able to answer these questions. Specifically the confusion for me mostly is about the performance of the first knuckle... I mean you descend into the lower portion of the push-up position, and then... do you "hop" up onto your first knuckle and thumb (while staying down) and then begin ascending? Or (as I've been unsuccessfully attempting for about a year) do you not "hop" but rather maintain all of your weight down on your hands but smoothly bring them into the first knuckle position and then descend? Or... something else? I'm sure someone can try to describe it to me in words, but I'm sure in the end I'll still be confused and a video of someone correctly performing these two would be so helpful. If anything because this "wrist series" is THE most recomended and talked about and seemingly applied pre-hab/warm up routine people are using and yet there is almost no information about it other than that one video of the kids performing, well... really badly, and the one excellent video post by Coach of only the wrist push-up (but not the other movements). Thanks again all.

[Patrick Patterson]

Also-

I understand the position and performance of the dorsal push-ups, however a video of someone correctly performing them full ROM would be so helpful. Why? Well... it just would. If I had never ever seen videos or images of people performing most of the other skills we are all working towrds (planche, levers, etc...) I can't imagine how I would have begun this journey or managed to progress without that clear view of what the ultimate goal is for each of those skills. Somehow seeing that guy perform those (what I thought were humanly not possible) wrist push-ups so relaxed and easily and correctly (ie. not "hopping" in the transition from fingers to back of the hand, etc...) has really guided me into (almost) achieving them in this past year (from barely being able to do 1 on the wall, to on knees and with piked hips, to knees, to slowly moving knees back further and further, to now full range normal push-up position, and not moving on from one of those steps until I could, for instance, do the transition without hopping, etc...). However, in all that time my attempts at first knuckle and dorsal push-ups have not developed AT ALL from the start. After about a year of working on my own, I now really need that outside perspective. Thanks again all.

[Joshua Naterman]

I don't know why there is so much confusion.

Dorsal push-ups are performed on the back of the hand. You start with the back of your hands on some sort of padded surface and press up to support on the knuckles you would punch someone with. You concentrate on using the pinkie side of the hand to press with, and your fingers are pointed however is comfortable to you, though most will find that fingers pointed either in or somewhat down, with thumbs pointed somewhat towards each other, is most comfortable.

First knuckle are performed on the palm. You start with a flat palm and press up to the first knuckle, which means that the entire palm up to the base of the fingers( and therefore including the thumb) is off the ground, with the fingers flat on the ground, weight supported on the palm side of the joint where the fingers attach to the palm.

That's it.

This has been discussed before, and if you search for "wrist push ups" here you'll find coach's video, along with a very long and complete explanation of what they are. He explains that what is shown in the video is a dorsal push up.

[Neal Winkler]

I really don't think that dorsal pushups are the same as wrist pushups. I'll have a video up of what I think are dorsal pushups in a little bit.

Here is what I think dorsal pushups are:

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[Charles Weill]

Yep, that's the dorsal push-up I do from reading coach's description. Trianglechoke, I think that your video will be the new standard for everyone who wants to know anything about diving into wrist conditioning (along with with the video of the kids doing wrist warmups). Thanks for that.

[Patrick Patterson]

Thanks Trianglechoke! So, yes, I can see I've been doing the dorsal push-ups the same as you. I assume we are both on the right track. I still am a little perplexed at the lack of progression I've had with these despite my wrist push-ups moving along so quickly. Anyone else care to share their experiences with the dorsal push-ups? Basically I've been at exactly the same level that you demonstrate in the video for almost a year, while only being able to slightly roate my hands in a little more to the inside. Is this normal for everyone else?

Slizzardman, sorry if I sound like I'm beating a dead horse but I still think we are talking about two different excersises (dorsal vs. wrist push-ups)... I think most of us are in agreement that trianlgechoke's video is the dorsal push-up and coach's video is the wrist push-up. Maybe you could post a video of the wrist exercies you perform. As I stated before most of my confusion is about the performance of the first kuckle push-up, specifically: how you correcly transition from the palm to the first kuckle (a hop or smooth?, propped up on thumb or thumb at side?, before ascending or as part of the ascent?, etc...)?

Thanks again everyone!

[Joshua Naterman]

We are not.

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This is coach's video.

This is coach's explanation:

http://gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=860&start=15

Dorsal Pushups

The movement which he is attempting is called Dorsal Pushups. To perform them picture yourself in a standard pushup position. Now begin to rotate your hands inward as far as possible given your current ROM. With perfect flexibility this rotation would eventually end with your little fingers pointing directly toward your feet and your thumbs pointing outward. Obviously very few people possess the flexibility to attain this extreme position; simply come as close as you can.

There are several guidelines which must be adhered to to successfully perform Dorsal Pushups:

1) If the hands are correctly rotated, the elbows should point at least partially forward when bending during this movement. Elbows that are pointing out to the sides as in the video are indicative of insufficient rotation.

2) The weight of the body should be born on the outside edges of the rotated palm, in particular the spot on the palm just above the wrist and in line with the little finger.

3) Maintain a flat back and hollow chest at all times when performing Dorsal Pushups; do not allow either the ribs to arch or the hips to drop.

4) The head should remain neutral during the repetitions. The bobbing head routine will result in little to no strength gains and is best left to chickens in the barnyard.

Performing these on the edge of a mat, or on a single bar or even on the edge of a stair will help to keep the hands in the proper rotated position.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

You all have been doing inwardly rotated push ups. Nothing more. Incidentally, I'm pretty sure that what you're doing puts you at an increased risk of AC impingement.

Dorsal push ups are called dorsal push ups because they involve dorsiflexion of the wrists. People often like to think that words don't matter. They do. Learn root words, they will prevent a lot of confusion.

[Patrick Patterson]

Hi Slizzardman-

I don't mean any disrespect and honestly I don't want to nitpick over something and turn it into a flame war, however I think a lot of us are reasonably confused. The link you post about Coach's description is part of a thread, his first entry which is titled "wrist push-ups" has a video which is also called "gymnasticbodies.com Wrist Push-ups" and in that post he gives some guidelines. Then later in the thread in a a seperate post (which you quoted) called "dorsal push-ups", and the description of that post he describes something which looks nothing like what we see in the video called "wrist push-ups", not at all. He does say in the dorsal push-up post "he movement which he is attempting is called Dorsal Pushups" but I think the "he" he is refering to is not the dude in the video doing the wrist push-ups, perhaps another poster on the thread is the "he" he's referring to. Because of this a lot of people, on that thread and here and other threads, have really been confused (all because there is not a video called "dorsal push-ups" which seems to demonstrate it). I'm concerned partly because if you are right, I'd hate to be doing something that could be damageful in someway. Again, no disrespect and thanks.

[Charles Weill]

And now to add to the confusion, my previous attempt at understanding wrist vs dorsal push-ups.

http://gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2508

[Joshua Naterman]

Hi Slizzardman-

I don't mean any disrespect and honestly I don't want to nitpick over something and turn it into a flame war, however I think a lot of us are reasonably confused. The link you post about Coach's description is part of a thread, his first entry which is titled "wrist push-ups" has a video which is also called "gymnasticbodies.com Wrist Push-ups" and in that post he gives some guidelines. Then later in the thread in a a seperate post (which you quoted) called "dorsal push-ups", and the description of that post he describes something which looks nothing like what we see in the video called "wrist push-ups", not at all. He does say in the dorsal push-up post "he movement which he is attempting is called Dorsal Pushups" but I think the "he" he is refering to is not the dude in the video doing the wrist push-ups, perhaps another poster on the thread is the "he" he's referring to. Because of this a lot of people, on that thread and here and other threads, have really been confused (all because there is not a video called "dorsal push-ups" which seems to demonstrate it). I'm concerned partly because if you are right, I'd hate to be doing something that could be damageful in someway. Again, no disrespect and thanks.

This is where I sign off on this thread. I don't care about arguing or winning, at least not in this thread lol! Call them what you want. Think what you want.

Wrist push up is a generic term, and in the thread I linked to Coach specifically stated what the video was about to clear up understandable confusion, since most people don't study any exercise science or anatomy, and therefore don't know what dorsiflexion and plantarflexion are.

I agree that it would help immensely for the video title to be changed, which youtube unfortunately doesn't seem to empower you to do, at least on my account. I'm not a youtube wizard by any means, so I could be missing something.

Nonetheless, you all have all the information you need. If you choose to take it in a different direction, that's what you'll do. I'll be putting up a video soon to show basic types of wrist push ups. I will post it here when it's done.

[Neal Winkler]

Until Coach clears it up I guess we will all have to agree to disagree.

If I were to agree with you, I would say that they are called dorsal pushups because they are on the back of the hand, not because you are doing dorsiflexion. Dorsiflexion and plantarflexion are ankle movements, not wrist movements. The wrist does flexion/extension, and ulnar deviation/radial deviation.

However, I don't see how the video titled "wrist pushups" looks anything like the description of "dorsal pushups." Coach says that perfect dorsal pushups would have your fingers pointing towards your feet, thumbs out the sides, and elbows forward? How could you achieve this without rotating the hands as I did?

[heinrich]

Also, I recommend that you review the video that BlairBob posted which contains my floor wrist series in its entirety. Begin with Dorsal Pushups, then Wrist Pushups, then First Knuckle, then Finger Pushups and finally Fingertip Hopping.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I found this one here: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=61&start=15

Hey slizzardman. I know we had this discussion elsewhere because I was confused, too. I read the description of dorsal Push-ups about 20 times and I think triangle is right. The above mentioned wouldn't make any sense if dorsal push-ups were the same as wrist push-ups.

[Charles Weill]

I found this one here: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=61&start=15

Thanks for the link. Very usefull info.

[Neal Winkler]

In the video with the kids, I see, in order: finger pushups, fingertip hopping, first knuckle, and wrist pushups. I don't see the dorsal pushups, unless I am missing something.

[Joshua Naterman]

You're right. The video and dorsal push ups are two different things.

Edit: I'm not being sarcastic. After class I went back and re-read.

[Patrick Patterson]

Hey Slizzardman, no problem, I wasn't trying to prove you were wrong or anything like that at all. 8) Just trying to show why me, and I think a lot of other people, have been confused about this for a while. If you could post a video of the wrist exercises that you do that would be great, all of your other videos and posts have been some of the most helpful material of the forums for me.

I've read all the posts regarding wrist conditioning, including that one that heinrich has linked above as well (where coach lists the order that he recomends the exercises should be performed in: dorsal, wrist, first knuckle, fingertip, fingertip hopping). Piecing together information from all these different posts and videos has still led to some confusion for those of us trying to put together our wrist conditioning routine, mostly because of a lack of a good video showing all the exercises correctly performed. Experimenting with this information for about a year has given me good results in wrist push-ups, but I have no idea what I'm doing with the other exercises and I can see/feel no development there.

Back to one of my original questions: what about the first knuckle push-up? Anyone else doing these? If so, how? Videos?

Thanks!

[Joshua Naterman]

I don't know who all does first knuckles, though bboy junior seems to like holding planches there. They are pretty tough I guess, I've seen some eyes almost pop out when I do them, which is pretty infrequent.

[heinrich]

Piecing together information from all these different posts and videos has still led to some confusion for those of us trying to put together our wrist conditioning routine

Read this:

http://idoportal.blogspot.com/2009/07/p ... ining.html :!:

Forum member Ido Portal knows what he is talking about. If you follow his advice on his BLOG you can't go wrong.

Examin the kids in the video carefully. The third push-up version starting at 1:45 are first knuckle pushups. I'm not sure what tempo Ido advises. I tried different ones and I like it slow and controlled like the tempo coach advises in some of the WOD'S

Use a tempo of 313 for the basic strength sets. For example on the L Chin-ups, this equates to a 3 second ascent, followed by a 1 second pause at the top, then a 3 second descent.

If you are interested in grip training in general there are dozens of fun exercises on the following site. Many of them are good for wrist strength, too

http://ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/Gr ... index.html

Slizzardman has been so kind to tell me about the link

Thick bar work is also a path to thick and strong wrist but you won't be spending ours and ours on your wrist conditioning. That's why you'll have to choose.

This is what I do:

I use the wrist series (video) 3-5 times a week (like Ido recommends) and I work some of John Brookfields exercises or thick bar whenever I feel like. That's it.