Need program to achieve MU, HSPU, OAC, OAPSU & V-up

[Midas]

Hi all,

I'm not gymnast but a big fan of everything gymnastics, callisthenics and acrobatics. I did weight training in the past but have completely dropped that for bodyweight training only since 2.5 months.

I need a program and advice on how to achieve my goals. I'm 24 years old, height is 1,82m, weight is 81-82kg.

Goals:

- Muscle-up

- One arm pushup (increase reps from 1-2 to 2 x 10)

- Handstand pushup

- V-up or full leg raise

- One arm chin-up

Current abilities needed for goals and extra info

Muscle-up:

- Pullups 2 x 10-15 reps to shoulder level not to the chest

- Ring dips 2 x 5 - 7 reps with hands to mid chest level in bottom position

For the muscle-up I already asked advice in "Ring Strength" section of this forum: http://gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3311 I will be doing False grip pullups to the chest or as high as possible and Russian dips (assisted & negatives).

One arm pushup:

- One arm pushup 1-2 good reps on the floor and multiple sets of 5 on a 10 inch box

Handstand:

- Headstand at least 60 sec

- Crow stand 20 - 30 sec

- Handstand against the wall at least 60 sec

- Headstand pushup against the wall 2-3 reps

V-up:

L-hold at least 20 sec

Leg lift to horizontal or slightly higher 2 x 7 - 10 reps

One arm chinup or pullup:

- Pullups 2 x 10-15 reps to shoulder level not to the chest

- Pullup with 28kg for 1 rep (bodyweight is 81-82 kg)

- Assisted one arm towel pullup: 1-2 reps

Note: Grip is weak, I have been doing one arm dead hangs. Maybe I need to postpone this goal, not sure...

I've been doing pistols as well, but I can already get 2 sets of 7 - 10 reps... so those are not really a goal anymore. Maybe increase reps or move on to something more difficult like jumping on a box after the pistol.

I like to train frequent instead of a few exhausting sessions. I used to do three exhausting sessions when training with weights but always feel depleted. Now days I like to train I 5-6 days a week and feel much better.

It would be great if some of you could give me some suggestions on how to make a program for this!!

Thanks in advance!!

[Midas]

This is what I came up with so far:

Day 1:

A1: OAPsu 3 x 5

A2: Assisted OAC 3 x 1

B1: Negative muscle-up 3 x 1-2

B2: Ring dips 3 x 7-10

C1: Hanging V 1 x hold

Day 2:

A1: Wall Handstand (kicking one leg away) 3 x 5

A2: Pullup to chest 3 x 7-10

B1: Russian dips – assisted or negatives 2 x 3-5

B2: Hanging leg raise to L (313) 2 x 5

C1: One leg squats 1 x max

Both workouts would be done 2 times a week.

What do you guys think??

[Blairbob]

Do it for 3 weeks and find out. Looks decent for your goals.

Have you tried V-hang lower to L? The difficult thing is then getting back to the V-hang. Generally do a leg lift, with a swing if necessary to get up. Or you could simply do V-hang lower to L slowly and hold. Killer.

[Midas]

Do it for 3 weeks and find out. Looks decent for your goals.

What should I expect after three weeks, I mean what is the best way to determine if it's working? What's a good protocol for that?

Have you tried V-hang lower to L? The difficult thing is then getting back to the V-hang. Generally do a leg lift, with a swing if necessary to get up. Or you could simply do V-hang lower to L slowly and hold. Killer.

Just tried it, it's definitely a killer! Very hard to keep strict form, is it normal when your legs get higher that your upper back tilts back some what? I'll try to incorporate them!

[Joshua Naterman]

You can try it. I think you're reaching too far on the negative muscle ups and assisted OAC. Uneven OAC is the next step if you can do good, slow pull ups. That's when you hold on with one hand, put the other hand on your wrist, and pull up to the bar. 2 seconds up, 1 second at the top, 2 seconds down. Don't worry about the assisted OAC until you are able to do 2 sets of 8-10 uneven chins pretty easily. That way you a) strengthen your grip so you can hold yourself, and B), you will safely strengthen the arm flexors for the increased strain assisted OAC will provide. You'll be better off working these and starting your assisted OACs being able to do smooth sets of 3-4 reps starting off than you will doing 3 sets of 1 rep. In other words, your long term progress will move faster if you wait for a few months and build up your ability with the uneven OAC. I can promise you this will work better, safer, and faster.

As for the muscle up, you really shouldn't be worrying about negative muscle ups until you can do pull ups to the chest. Why? Because your elbows and shoulders aren't ready for the strain. Get at least a partial false grip on the pull up bar and start pulling as high as you can. Once the bar gets to the top of your head you're going to need to start rolling your shoulders forward and continue doing so as you go up, that's how you get the bar all the way to your chest. When you can pull your nipples up to the bar, and when you can do russian dips, you'll be ready to start working the muscle ups directly. In fact, you probably won't even need to bother with the negatives, you'll just plain out be able to do them. That's how it worked for me, and I got them in about 3 months. I can do a slow, smooth muscle up on the rings and on the pull up bars. A solid straight bar still eludes me on the slow muscle up, because the tricep strength required to move my 230 lb ass through the transition with my hands in front of me(as the straight bar forces you to do) is simply more than I have right now. But I seem to be going higher and higher from week to week, millimeter by millimeter! Anyhow, be smart and take your time, build your strength safely and stay healthy. You will have the muscle up before summer if you train like this, and it won't be one of those kipping muscle ups either. It will be a slow, strong one.

So, step 1: Start working false grip pull ups, to the chest. You won't get there right away, every other week try to get an inch higher. Don't push it too fast, by sometime in March you'll be at or close to nipple level if you start today.

Step 2: Start working Russian Dips. I just made a video for both of these, it will be up later this evening. I'll be sure to link it in here.

[Midas]

Thanks for your help slizzardman!

I'll drop the assisted OAC and the negative muscle-up as well. I can do the uneven pullups for 3 reps per set(212), my grip gives out before my arms&back... do you think 3 reps are enough to start doing these or would it be better to stick with the false grip pull ups, to the chest only?

In the past I've tried to train with near maximal efforts, but with very little result. For example with the one arm pushup, I can do 1-2 good reps on the floor... but I have been unable to increase my reps over the past few months..

BTW should I try to increase reps over time?

I would definitely love to see those videos!!

[Joshua Naterman]

For one arm push ups, and really for almost everything, if you try to increase your reps by doing maximal efforts over and over you're basically slamming your head into a brick wall. Sub-maximal training is necessary to get the results you are looking for. Are you doing PERFECT one arm push ups or are your legs spread and/or your body twisted?

You're going to get your best results there, just like everything else, with deliberate sub-maximal training. Back off to something you can do more reps with. For example, uneven push ups. Put one hand on the floor, one hand on a basketball, soccer ball, or at first maybe a stack of books. Do these until you can do 15-20 perfect reps with 2-1-2 tempo. 2s down, 1s pause with your chest just barely touching the elevated hand, and then 2 seconds back up. You'll end up slightly tilted at the top. Do these per arm, so you should be able to do 1 sets of 15-20 PERFECTLY with your left arm elevated, and then with your right arm elevated. That means that the first time you hit those numbers you should keep doing them for a few weeks, so that you are easily able to do more but choose not to. This ensures you develop proper control and joint stability. When you can do that I'll let you know what the next step is. I can guarantee you that it will be more challenging than you think.

Keep in mind that your false grip pull up work needs to be a little briefer than I would normally suggest since you are doing OAC work as well. They work similar muscles and you should do them in the same workout so you don't screw up your recovery. Twice a week is plenty, but if you do a third time only do false grip pull ups. OAC work is tough on the connective tissue, you want that to heal well!

In case anyone's wondering, some of these progressions come from the book "Convict Conditioning" which is quite good. It only covers 6 basic exercises, and some of the information is skewed or plain wrong, but we're talking about a few lines out of 280+ pages. The progressions themselves are great and well thought out. They come straight from prison, where being strong is the only way you keep a tight butt hole. One arm pull up, one arm push up(the real, super hard, perfect ones), one arm handstand push up, SLS, stand to bridge to stand are all wonderful progressions. Honestly, his HLL progression is nowhere near as good as Coach's, and I was surprised and disappointed. Those are the six exercises, and together essentially provide a base of incredible bodily strength. I personally think his one arm pull up progression is the best and most useful one I have seen, and the one arm push up in my opinion is a great movement to shoot for in terms of tricep strength. You move 60-70 percent of your bodyweight during a floor push up. That's the load. If you're doing that with one hand, that's like me tricep pressing 120+lbs with one arm. That's ridiculous. I think these will provide me with the tricep strength for easy straight bar muscle ups.

The book has a small paragraph of poorly chosen words regarding the planche, which is completely wrong. It also tends to discount the usefulness of pseudo planche push ups, which he refers to as maltese push ups. Probably from an incomplete knowledge of the movement. He says it's quite hard, but that he prefers that you don't do them unless you're planning to be a gymnast. I think that's an oddly poor choice of opinions, for a man who needs to be strong to survive, but I guess that's life. Lord knows that when you can do 50+ perfect one arm push ups you are a man I completely do NOT want to be punched by, so from his perspective I guess they aren't "necessary."

[Cole Dano]

Funny i was reading your post Slizardman and thinking hey thats CC!

Totally agree there's a couple of oddball moments, but the overall package is a worthwhile compliment to Coach Sommer's program. That's coming from a guy with the exact opposite body type as yours.

[Midas]

@slizzardman

I have a copy of CC as well, but I disagree on some of the progressions.. I can do a "perfect" or close to perfect one arm pushup the way Pavel teaches them in Naked Warrior; body parallel to the floor(no twisting) and legs out a bit wider then shoulder width, with only your toes touching the floor. I've done the lever pushups from CC, they do give a good "pump" but they don't feel the same as a real one armer. I currently practice them with my hand elevated on a 40cm box. I can do 5 good reps this way and it feels a lot more comfortable then banging out singles on the floor. I guess I'll stick with this elevation for a few weeks and then lower it a bit.. until I can do 5 reps on the floor.

I'll be updating my program in a few hours..

[Midas]

Updated version of my program:

Day 1:

A1: OAPsu 3 x 5

A2: Uneven pullup 3 x 3

B1: Ring dips 3 x 7-10

B2: False grip Pullup to chest 3 x 7-10

Day 2:

A1: Russian dips – assisted 3 x 3-5

A2: Wall Handstand (kicking one leg away) 3 x 5

B1: One leg squats 2 x max

B2: Hanging leg raise to L (313) 2 x 5

C1: Hanging V to L 2 x 5

[Joshua Naterman]

@slizzardman

I have a copy of CC as well, but I disagree on some of the progressions.. I can do a "perfect" or close to perfect one arm pushup the way Pavel teaches them in Naked Warrior; body parallel to the floor(no twisting) and legs out a bit wider then shoulder width, with only your toes touching the floor. I've done the lever pushups from CC, they do give a good "pump" but they don't feel the same as a real one armer. I currently practice them with my hand elevated on a 40cm box. I can do 5 good reps this way and it feels a lot more comfortable then banging out singles on the floor. I guess I'll stick with this elevation for a few weeks and then lower it a bit.. until I can do 5 reps on the floor.

I'll be updating my program in a few hours..

If I were you I'd build up to 10 reps at your current height, and then start closing your legs. Aim for perfection there since you already have some endurance and so can work at submaximal levels! Once you're perfect there just drop down maybe 5 cm until you get back up to 10. Good work, by the way. You can stick with 5 reps if you like, but I think you'll be safer with the 10. Either way, make us a video when you've got them on the floor!

[Midas]

I'll build up to 10 reps and then lower the elevation! Did you already uploaded the video's you made from the false grip pullups and russian dips?

Edit:

Just saw your video, it's great very helpful!!Awesome to do that of you!! Thanks!

I was thinking of dropping the Uneven pullups, not sure, because I can only get 2 reps on average, maybe better to just stick with the false grip pullups.. what do you think?

And I was also thinking about maybe adding a third variety day where I can do some other exercises and have fun with those...?

And what about doing 2 kind of dips on both days?

[Joshua Naterman]

I'll build up to 10 reps and then lower the elevation! Did you already uploaded the video's you made from the false grip pullups and russian dips?

Edit:

Just saw your video, it's great very helpful!!Awesome to do that of you!! Thanks!

Glad you find it useful.

I was thinking of dropping the Uneven pullups, not sure, because I can only get 2 reps on average, maybe better to just stick with the false grip pullups.. what do you think?

It depends on your goals. If you are thinking about doing the one arm chin or pull-up, you should keep working them. That's something that would be good to "grease the groove" with. Do one every few hours, maybe 4-6 spread out throughout the day. Like when you get up, right before you leave, when you get home, after dinner, before bed. Something like that, so they are spread out. 4-5 days a week doing that for a month or two will have you ready to do more than 2 reps with no problem. You might even want to add a rep or two every other week once the initial routine of say 6 per arm per day(spread out, of course) gets easy.

I'd spend more time on your false grip pull ups until you have them mastered, just because they are a very useful skill to have. You need them for muscle ups, rolls, etc., so they're a good exercise to build.

And I was also thinking about maybe adding a third variety day where I can do some other exercises and have fun with those...?

And what about doing 2 kind of dips on both days?

As long as you aren't slowing your recovery or hurting yourself, have fun with the variety day!

As for the dips, you should use different dips for warm ups. One good set of regular dips and one good set of bulgarian (XR or parallel bar, whatever) dips as the warm up, and two sets of the russians as your actual workout. Work hard on your warm up sets, warm ups are still meant to be challenging.

[Midas]

Oke, thanks Slizzard! I think my final program would look something like this:

Day 1

A1 :

-Ring pushup 1 x max

-Lever pushup 1 x max

-OAPsu 3 x max

A2 :

-Hanging leg raise to L (313) 1 x 5-10

-Windshield wipers half 1 x 5-10

-Hanging V to L (313) 2 x 5

B1:

-One leg squats 2 x max

Day 2

A1:

-Chinup 1 x 5-7

-Side to side pullup 1 x 3-5

-False grip Pullup to chest 3 x max

A2:

-Ring dips 1 x 7-10

-Ring dips - Bulgarian 1 x max

-Russian dips - partials 2 x 3-5

B1:

-Wall Handstand (kicking one leg away) practice for 5 – 10 min

GTG Uneven pullup

What do you think?

[Joshua Naterman]

The overall structure looks good, but I think you might be making a mistake doing max reps for a set. Going to your max reps is going to drastically change your recovery, but you might want to try it and see for yourself. That's always more educational and useful. If you decide that you aren't progressing quite as well as you want to, then train close to, but not quite at, your max reps. So if you can do 20 reps, but the last few are really, really, really hard, stop at 16 or 17. You will soon find that 20 becomes easy as well, and with less downtime! Trust me, it may sound strange but it works.

[Midas]

When I say max, I mean maximum repetition with good form and reasonable amount of effort not going to failure.

I tried to do the false grip pullups on the bar but I find it extremely hard to pull with my wrists on the bar.. On the rings I find it much more doable, maybe it also has to do with my pullup bar which is kind of to smooth.