Can't do muscle-up; is it a strength or technique issue?

[Midas]

Hi all,

I've been wanting to be able to do a muscle-up for quit some time now. I've tried on the rings and on a pullup bar but can't seem to do it.

I've been wondering if it's a strength or technique issue... Since I can easily do 12+ clean full ROM pullups on the rings and can do a pullup with 30kg of extra weight as well(body weight is 82 kg). I can do 8+ dips on the rings(20 on parallel bars)with my hands at about armpit level in the bottom position. Am I strong enough??

Every time I try to pull very hard through the transition my elbows hurt a lot.

I've read coach Sommers post on developing the muscle-up transition. But when I try to pull myself up higher than normal on the pullups I can't get my hands lower than shoulder level. I've tried using momentum as well, but ended up hurting my elbows even more. At one point my elbows felt extremely painful.

Any suggestions on how to get there??

I've looked through so many tutorials... but no luck, really want to get there(without injuring my elbows)!

[Neal Winkler]

An old crossfit standard (where i first learned about gymnastics) was 15 pullups and dips before a muscle up. I've known people who have gotten them with less, so I don't know how accurate this is.

In any regard, 8 ring dips is not very good, I would work on those.

Make sure you have a false grip, pull the rings in close, and lean forward hard. This is what it takes to get your first one.

[Joshua Naterman]

Hi all,

I've been wanting to be able to do a muscle-up for quit some time now. I've tried on the rings and on a pullup bar but can't seem to do it.

I've been wondering if it's a strength or technique issue... Since I can easily do 12+ clean full ROM pullups on the rings and can do a pullup with 30kg of extra weight as well(body weight is 82 kg). I can do 8+ dips on the rings(20 on parallel bars)with my hands at about armpit level in the bottom position. Am I strong enough??

Every time I try to pull very hard through the transition my elbows hurt a lot.

I've read coach Sommers post on developing the muscle-up transition. But when I try to pull myself up higher than normal on the pullups I can't get my hands lower than shoulder level. I've tried using momentum as well, but ended up hurting my elbows even more. At one point my elbows felt extremely painful.

Any suggestions on how to get there??

I've looked through so many tutorials... but no luck, really want to get there(without injuring my elbows)!

I'm a little over 100 kilos and I just got my first muscle ups, maybe I can help you.

One, I found out that I was doing the false grip wrong. I was trying to close my hands around the bar or ring while in the false grip, which is not what you want to do. Instead, just wrap the fingertips under and touch the bottom of the bar or ring, but don't try to squeeze your HAND. Stay relaxed. This really helps lessen the elbow tension. I used to squeeze my hands and it was painful. I figured this out and it was smooth sailing! You pull your fingertips towards the bar pretty hard, but your hand and forearms stay as relaxed as they can be while still maintaining the false grip.

When pulling up, you're going to be rolling your shoulders forwards as you get your chin close to the bar. That's really important. With the false grip done properly, you shouldn't feel much tension. I personally spent about 2 months preparing with the high pull ups. I wasn't even doing false grip so I could only get my hands to the lower middle part of my chest. Take your time, don't go too high, and use the false grip for at least half of them.

If you can't do the full range of motion don't worry, neither can I! I can only extend my arms 2/3 of the way down on the false grip pull up part of the muscle up. I'm slowly getting better, at first I could only do slightly less than half of the ROM. Don't increase your ROM until you're TOTALLY COMFORTABLE in a certain ROM for at least two weeks. We are heavy guys, and that means our bodies are strained more at the joints. Take your time, otherwise you will get hurt.

[Gregor]

I found that most people lack of shoulder strength in MU, wich is needed in the midle part, when you are roling your shoulders above the rings.

Good exercise is I think is called "russian dips" dips on upper arms.

[David Picó García]

With this numbers on pullups and dips you MUST be able to do a muscle, at least a cheating muscle up (i mean kipping or moving your legs to the front and leaning torso).

So i think is about technique. My advice is to do pullups with false grip until you arrive to the armpit, if you can do this, then think of switching your elbows from down position to up position (i say switch because i thought as if my arms where an old switch) very quickly. This movement will put your shoulder over the rings.

[Felipe]

Do only the negative part of the movement the slowest possible (don't try the other part) for 1-2 weeks.

It will help you learning the motion. Then do only the transition part, and when you will do it, you will have all the movement.

Spend time also learning a good false grip (the first times I did it was quite bad for my wrists, now it's confortable).

For elbows, have 1 week of rest (if elbows hurt even during normal activities). Remember always to warmup.

[Midas]

Thanks, all for the great help!

I tried to use False grip, which seems to help a lot. I got my arms about parallel to the floor. The first time I tried, it almost felt that I could have completed a full muscle-up with a little extra help. My elbows still hurt though.

@slizzardman

I've tried to stay relaxed in the false grip to take the tension of my elbow, but I find that quite hard, it happens naturally. I guess you mean you just have to hang on your fingers like hooks instead of gripping the rings, so your hands can turn on the rings.

@Gregor

Those Russian dips sound awesome, but unfortunately I don't have parallel bars just rings and a dip station at the gym. Any alternatives?

The shoulder strength needed for the muscle-up, must be quit different then needed for let's say a clean & press or Jerk right?? I can clean & press 65 kg and jerk 75 kg... don't know if that helps.

@serotonin

I hope it's technique.. The switching arms part is where it hurts a lot. I'm used to training slow and have been using a lot of Pavel Tsatsouline's High Tension techniques. Moving fast seems a hard now.

@trianglechoke7

I'm working on my dips together with one arm pushups. I could probably get a few more reps on the dips and pullups. I usually train multiple sets of medium to low reps 3-8 reps and terminate sets a couple of reps before failure. I wonder If really need to be able to do 15 dips on the rings.. isn't that just more strength endurance?

@Felipe

The negatives sound good but up until now I tend to fall through most of the transition part(right before I hit parallel)...

I guess I'll have to keep trying. Work hard on:

- false grip

- adding ROM to the pullups & dips

- negatives

- And maybe shoulder strength??

Couldn't it be a flexibility problem??

Thanks!

[Gregor]

Not flexibility.

Try to do it on dip station if you can?

[Blairbob]

start in the bottom of the dip, transition to the top of the pullup and then try to get back to the bottom of the dip or vice versa.

[Midas]

Not flexibility.

Try to do it on dip station if you can?

I tried to do those Russian dips today but It's seem I don't have the strength for it... I rested my forearms on the bars and tried lean forward and come of my forearms into a regular dip position, that's it right? Or I'am doing it wrong OR I really lack the strength for it. Something else I can try??

Tried to do kipping muscle-ups as well today, now my elbows/tendons hurt terrible. I wonder if I need to develop some more base strength?

[Gregor]

Not flexibility.

Try to do it on dip station if you can?

I tried to do those Russian dips today but It's seem I don't have the strength for it... I rested my forearms on the bars and tried lean forward and come of my forearms into a regular dip position, that's it right? Or I'am doing it wrong OR I really lack the strength for it. Something else I can try??

Tried to do kipping muscle-ups as well today, now my elbows/tendons hurt terrible. I wonder if I need to develop some more base strength?

1. yes

2.this is one of the best exercises of midle part of MU

3.you defenitly need more base strength if you can not do few russian dips

[Midas]

Thanks Gregor! I've made some kind of setup to do them at home, well at least try to do them at home

I can't do them yet but it feels like it works the forearms and triceps extremely hard..

Would dips on the rings and tiger bend push-ups help to develop strength needed for the Russian dips and MU?

[Mark Weaver]

Maybe have a spot or some band-resistance to see what the motion feels like.

[Joshua Naterman]

Not flexibility.

Try to do it on dip station if you can?

I tried to do those Russian dips today but It's seem I don't have the strength for it... I rested my forearms on the bars and tried lean forward and come of my forearms into a regular dip position, that's it right? Or I'am doing it wrong OR I really lack the strength for it. Something else I can try??

Tried to do kipping muscle-ups as well today, now my elbows/tendons hurt terrible. I wonder if I need to develop some more base strength?

I am going to give you the single most important piece of advice you can get, and this goes for everyone. No matter how strong you are, make sure you spend at LEAST 3 weeks on a progression before you go to the next one, even if you can do a lot of reps. Why? Your muscles get stronger much faster than your joints. Give them the time to adjust. Do not skip progressions, no matter what, regardless of the exercise and your ability level. I have been guilty of this and I have finally learned that the slower, methodical, step by step approach both avoids injury and gives better long-term strength gains.

If anyone is doing this to gain strength for a year and then let it all go, they should just quit now. It is ridiculous to waste your time on something that will not A) help you towards your goals, whether personal or professional; B) not be part of a lifestyle you choose to practice, or a combination. If you want to get strong, make it a lifestyle. You're probably like I was, hungry for results right away, ready to work as hard as you need to in order to progress. A lifestyle is something that you do every day, as a non-optional(to you) part of your life. A lifestyle, since it happens every day, requires that you stay injury free. You can't live the lifestyle of a strong man or woman if you get yourself hurt and have to take weeks off or get surgery or some nonsense. That means you have to learn how to get strong and be strong without getting hurt, and that takes patience and understanding.

Your elbow pain is proof that you are moving too fast. Start doing assisted russian dips, with your foot on a stool if necessary, and start doing chest to the bar pull ups. Don't even try to go beyond that for at least 30 days, minimum. In fact, don't try to go past that until your elbow pain has been gone COMPLETELY for at least two weeks. That means at least two weeks of pain free, slow(2 second ascent), chest-to-the-bar pull ups with a partial or full false grip, or 30 days from now, whichever takes the longest. If you can't do 2 sets of 7 to 10, your joints aren't ready to move on.

If you can't even do 1 russian dip, start doing negatives. Go all the way down, and then lower your elbows to the bar. You may have to stop halfway at first and push back up, I don't know. Do a few of those each day, just the negative. Eventually, when you can go at least half way down, do one or two sets of a few reps in your dip workouts where you lower to the bottom of a dip, lower your elbows halfway to the bar, raise them back up, and push up to the top of the dip so that you start building the foundation for the russian dips. After a few weeks of being able to do these, try to go even further. 3/4 should be no problem, and you might even be able to go so low that you brush the bar with your elbow. A few more weeks of this and then you should be ready to do the full russian dips. At least a few weeks of THOSE will have you prepared to start doing negatives for the muscle up transition. A few weeks of THOSE should have you ready to start attempting assisted slow muscle ups or unassisted, depending on your strength. I didn't need to do the assisted muscle ups because I prepared before hand with exactly what I am telling you now.

I did the same thing with the false grip pull ups. In fact I still am. I started just holding a false grip with my chin above the bar, and then did some negatives for a few weeks, to about halfway down. Then I started pulling back up, doing half reps. Now it's time to continue adding an inch here, an inch there, of extra ROM. I still can not go down to a dead hang with a false grip. So I am still working on that. I practice the transition of the muscle up a few times a week once or twice, and will slowly add reps as my elbows get used to it. That's why, in a year, I will be doing slow deadhang muscle ups with a ton of extra weight while many others who try to move faster will still be wondering why they can't do a muscle up. You must put the time in, be patient, and let your body adjust at its own rate.

[Midas]

Great post slizzardman!

I know this is absolutely true.

If you can't do 2 sets of 7 to 10, your joints aren't ready to move on.

Is this a rule of thumb that can be used for training other skills and exercises as well?

So my new muscle-up plan is to start working on:

- russian dips (assisted / negatives)

- chest to the bar pull ups (false grip). Can't get my chest to the bar, I will try to get as high as possible.

Can I do the "chest to the bar pull ups" on the rings as well, pulling up as high as possible?

[David Picó García]

Yes, on rings i would call pullups with false grip to armpit (start a neutral hang with hands facing and as you ascend you turn your hands as they look forward as in a pull-up grip and try to arrive until your armpit.

But if it hurts something, rest, it shouldent hurt anything while doing muscle up.

[Joshua Naterman]

Great post slizzardman!

I know this is absolutely true.

If you can't do 2 sets of 7 to 10, your joints aren't ready to move on.

Is this a rule of thumb that can be used for training other skills and exercises as well?

Yes, though each exercise will have its own progression. That's part of what Coach is trying to say with the Steady State Program. For everything that depends on straight arm strength, you need to go slower. But, even for bent arm strength it is important to do things in stages. It's not about the muscles, we aren't trying to be as big as possible or whatever, we want to be functional, right? So that means we have to give our joints time to adapt also. Every time you jump up in weight or progression you want to give at least a few weeks without changes. Then you start adding reps and sets(within reason) until you build a sufficient strength base in both the joints and the muscles to safely move on to the next progression or jump in weight. This is really important to do for everything!

So my new muscle-up plan is to start working on:

- russian dips (assisted / negatives)

- chest to the bar pull ups (false grip). Can't get my chest to the bar, I will try to get as high as possible.

Can I do the "chest to the bar pull ups" on the rings as well, pulling up as high as possible?

First off, make sure you don't try to go higher for two weeks. Then see how high you can go for reps and maintain THAT height for two or three weeks. This makes sure you don't over-reach your capabilities. It's conservative, but it will make sure you don't get hurt.

Second, you can definitely do them on rings. I like them on the pull up bars because they force you to work a little harder because you can't move through a solid bar, whereas the rings can be pulled into and under the armpits. That's what makes a rings slow muscle up easier than a straight bar slow muscle up, so consider that. I'd do both, but spend more time with the bar. But then, I'm all about shooting for the really hard stuff!

[Blairbob]

Worked russian dips with my feet/achilles on a bike tube. This sort work ok, as I used this method to regain my MU some time ago when I hung it off the dip station on my PowerTower (pullup/dip tower). Just make sure to chicken dip(upper arm hang shrug) as high as you can before you roll the transition forward.

I think gaining more flexibility through this range will help me a lo (aka my shoulders are very tight through this ROM and I can't just muscle through like once upon a time. I'm looking currently (besides it possibly being in the budget) to buy pallet bands or Iron Woody bands for myself/the gym.

[Joshua Naterman]

I have some of the least flexible shoulders on this board i think, and I can do the muscle ups fine. I really don't think that flexibility has very much to do with this movement, unless you're talking about going all the way down to a dead hang.

[Blairbob]

My flexibility in shoulder extension is very poor. It's laughable compared to most of my boys. I can do a german hang but it's far from pretty.

http://drillsandskills.com/stretching/Shoulder/sd005

I found the assisted russian dips to be trying through the transition which I found surprising since I have some ability to dip. I've lost a bit of strength from taking time off after the meet in november besides having taken time off in October.

So, I'm gonna be doing these since I'd like to have a cleaner MU in general and for my meet on the 30th. I'm not sure if this will be the last one in Norcal or this spring season so we'll see as it could very well be the last meet of the season for me

[Joshua Naterman]

That's a good stretch. I do the standing grab the bar behind you version, it puts less pressure on my shoulders, which is important for my right shoulder. You might also want to stretch your lats by grabbing a bar in front of you and bending over to open the shoulder, and bend your body to stretch the lat. It's important to be reaching away from you, just like in a handstand, in order to relax the lat and get the most out of the stretch. This is part of my shoulder rehab program and it pays good dividends for me.

[Midas]

I did the russian dips on an assisted dip/pullup station at the gym, seems these things can be useful after all

It's was actually quite nice to do these in a controlled manner and really focus on the movement and get some reps in as well.

[Joshua Naterman]

That's a great way to work into them if you have access to an assisted machine!

[Jason Stein]

My flexibility in shoulder extension is very poor.

Hey Blair,

Coach Sommer showed us an exercise at the seminar last May, which I've also read about in other gymnastic books, that goes a long way to creating active posterior shoulder extension, which might help you with your German hangs and skin-the-cats.

Basically, you can take a plate, hold it behind your back, and lean forward, extending the plate out and away.

The other alternative I've read that the male Soviet gymnasts would perform every day as part of their daily warm-up was to take a barbell and hold it behind their hips in what looks like almost a snatch grip. They would then fold forward and extend the barbell out and away.

They'd do 10 reps at 20Kg.

I've worked my way up to two 10# plates.

Boom, hamstring stretch and active shoulder flex in one movement.

It's a lot more scalable than jumping into German hang pulls, and you can measurably increase the load in increments.

best,

jason

[Joshua Naterman]

Im uploading the video for the false grip pull up and russian dip as I type, but its slow. I'll link it in tomorrow. Just letting you guys know what's happening.

Edit: Here it is. o52cZ-_bH7s