Getting started with gymnastic training..

[Danny]

Hey guys.

First of all let me introduce myself, cause this is my first post here!

I am Danny, 17 years old and I live in Holland. I have kickboxed for 1.5 year now, and some fitness/running/bodyweight exercises besides that..

I read Coach Sommer's article about the planche and levers and started training for them, I can hold a Tuck Planche for 20 seconds, strength is not really the problem I think, it's my balance. I still have to start with practicing the lever.

I read some topics on this forum, and I find it all really interesting. I want do train more like a gymnast. But how to get started, and how to combine it with Wrestling and Kickboxing..

I would like some help from you guys with designing a routine for me..

At tuesday I do Kickboxing, at kickboxing it is just sparring, endless push-ups(explosive) and squats, and some isolated abs work..

The rest of the days are still open, I can do Wrestling on Monday if i'd like to. I have a gym where I can lift weights, and at home I have a pull-up bar, some 2 meter ropes to climb, a Bench with lots of weight, I can make some kind of Squatting rack, bars and weights and space enough. I also have some dumbells, but all only 5 kg. I also have some hills which I can run on!

I can do handstand push-ups half the way down and up, the full ROM is still to heavy, so i practice negatives, and static holds at the top. This evening I will see how long I can hold this static hold..

What do you guys advice me at how many times a week I should practice the Planche and Lever, and the HSPU static holds..

Now I practice everyday, cause I am really enthiousiast, and my body doesn't really seem to have a problem with this.

My primary goal is to get strong and fit, secondary goal is to add some mass and LOOK strong. I weigh 73kg right now, and I am 1m83.. Don't know how to say it in lbs and inches. Sorry. :oops:

My routine now, which is not so clear, I just do whatever I like to do:

Monday: Lifting Weights. Some Cardio. Planche work.

Tuesday: Kickboxing & Planche work.

Wednesday: 3x300M sprint, some miles running, Planche & Lever work.

Thursday: Planche & Lever work, Lunges, Bench Press, Military Press, HSPU static hold..

Friday: nothing..

Saturday: Nothing or heavy work.

Can you guys give me advice on what to do, and how to train best to train AS a gymnast.. I am all open for tips and advice, and don't know much about Gymnastic Training..

Some Strength stats at the moment:

I can hold a Tuck Planche for 20 seconds.

Can do around 8/10 dips on dip bars..

I can do 6 chin-ups. (Palms facing me)

I can do over 40 push-ups. Don't know exact, I shall test!

I can squat atleast 5x70kg.. (While ago though..)

Hope you guys can help me out, gymnastic training seems really fun, and I like to know what exercises I can do with the stuff and strength I have! And how to make them into a nice routine!

With regards, Danny.

[Danny]

I read this in another post..

Goals

> 10 Pull-ups

> 10 Pushups (go deep on paralettes or rings)

> 10 Hanging leg raises (to horizontal)

Have a browse around the forum (and articles on main site) to find out how to do them correctly, problems others have had, and good progressions. To start with:

Workouts:

> Warm-up 10 mins

> 5 x 3 Pull-ups (with 2min rest between sets)

> 5 x 3 Push-ups (with 2min rest between sets)

> 5 x 3 Hanging leg raises (with 2min rest between sets)

> Something for legs (If you want ...and depends on goals)

> Cool-down/stretch 10 mins

I can't do 10 pull-ups, but I can do easily 10 hanging leg raises and 10 pushups.. Should I start by just doing this workout 3/4 times a week? Or is it to little? Since the only hard thing on this will be the pull-up part..

[George Launchbury]

Hi Danny,

Welcome to the forum. Sounds like you have plenty of energy and motivation ...and could do with a little direction.

Getting stronger is an OK basic goal, as is looking stronger (which comes with being stronger) ...however it gets pretty boring just getting stronger, especially when you're young! I would suggest moving forward in the following manner, perhaps:

1. Set a goal

Decide on a goal (or two ...but no more for now) which is something that you really want to be able to do, even just because it's cool. 8) Maybe a press to handstand, planche, muscle-up, free standing HSPU ...whatever takes your fancy. If you have something in mind but don't know the name, shout out, and someone will probably be able to help.

2. Make a plan

Assess where you are now, what you need to work on to get where you want to go, and some milestones along the way as reaching them feels good and keeps you going. Again, don't be afraid to ask for advice - specific questions get specific answers.

3. Balance it out

When you know what you will be working on, you will want to add some support exercises, and opposing movements to balance out strength gains around your joints. This is why people often pair the front-lever with the planche - a pull with a comparable push. If, for example, you find you are weak in the front-lever, but strong in the planche ...it is a sign of something you should address. Always build from a solid base.

4. Get started

The best way to learn is by doing. There is no perfect routine. That is part of the fun. You will have questions and problems along the way, some of which you'll answer yourself, and some you'll need to ask about. Listen to all niggles, aches and pains, and be a little over-cautious with rest and recovery to start with.

You can ask my sore elbows about that!

So... Have a think, watch some videos on youTube, read around the forum, and when you've come up with something that you want to aim for, post it up and get some advice on getting there. Actually, that sounds fun!

Regards,

George.

P.s. you might need to do some pull-ups to get to your goal, and you might not. Seems silly just doing them for the sake of hitting a number, when you could be having fun and/or impressing your friends!

[Danny]

Hi George, thanks a lot for your reply and the time you took for it!

Indeed, it is nice to have a goal, but probably all the exercises you said, are those I want to be able to do.

But an HSPU is probably easier to do then a planche? Because I think I am close to performing a full rom HSPU.. Well not close, but way closer then I am to doing a Planche Pushups.. So let's say the HSPU is my first goal, but in the meantime I want to make progress in my Planche and Lever work..

This afternoon I did the following:

5 x 3 Pull-ups. (I noticed that I'm really weak in my lats.)

5 x 3 Dips. easy

5 x 3 Hanging Leg raise, easy, but should watch out for swinging.

Then I biked 3 km at a fast pace to the forest with some hills and did 3 x 100m hill sprint, with 20 seconds rest in between.. First time I ran hills, and it was really fun, but hard work! To finish I did 2 x 10 Overhead Squats..

But back to that goal thing, I think I'd like to start with a muscle-up, since training to this will train my back, which i'd like to get stronger at..

For the muscle up, should I just train at Pull-ups, Dips, Chin-Ups, Frog Jumps? And how can I train for the movement where you have to change from pull to push, don't know if there is a name for it.. The movement where you have to pull yourself above the bar, and quickly change to push, and then push yourself up..

Hope you guys can help me out with tips on this one.

And I can just work on the Planche and Lever in the meantime?

How many times a day do you guys advice me to do this. And should I take one day off between the days I train the low-rep exercises in which i'm going to failure. Or should I never train to failure?

Looking forward for an answer already. :wink:

[George Launchbury]

Hi Danny,

Training to failure while trying to gain strength or acquire skills is not a good idea. You should always keep something in the bank. HSPUs are much easier than a Planche.

As a note, a full ROM HSPU would be with hands raised from the floor, so you can go down far enough that hands are at shoulder height. Doing them on the floor is more of a headstand pushup, I guess. Both are good goals, depending on level of strength. One of my goals is to do HSPUs free balancing away from the wall, for example.

From what you are saying, you might be happy starting with a routine similar to some that have been discussed in the past, and are quite balanced. This involved two workouts. One dynamic, which would be toward your muscle-up and include pushing and pulling, and one with static push and pull.

Workout 1

HSPU

Pull-ups on rings

Dips on rings

Hanging leg raises (working toward full toes-to-bar ROM)

Legs - your choice

Workout 2

Handstand at wall

Planche progression

Front-lever progression

Static core: hollow hold, side planks, superman

Legs - your choice

You would alternate these as and when you are recovered. This might be once each a week, twice, more or less. A good split, if you can recover adequately, might be three times each a fortnight:

Mon: Workout 1

Wed: Workout 2

Fri: Workout 1

Mon: Workout 2

Wed: Workout 1

Fri: Workout 2

Rather than do all the planning work for you (which I had started to do), I will say that you can find excellent threads on all of these in the forum, including muscle-up transitions, handstands, workout planning and cycling. You will benefit much more from the tracking it down for yourself, and enjoy a greater sense of satisfaction. Be sure to read some of the threads on joint (especially wrist/shoulder) pre-hab and conditioning - work these in, as well as obviously warming up, cooling down etc.

In terms of cycling volume and intensity, work on the basic premise of:

> work below your abilities for 1 week, say 80% effort level

> gradually work up to your current PRs over the course of 2-3 weeks

> push yourself for new PRs over a week or so

> rest up for a week and start again at a slightly higher level than before

Also, think about tempo. Three seconds up, three seconds down, and a second pause at each end for basic purposes. This might be written as 3:1:3 or similar. There many other protocols for this, depending on the desired training effect.

Hope this helps,

George.

[David Picó García]

For the muscle up, should I just train at Pull-ups, Dips, Chin-Ups, Frog Jumps? And how can I train for the movement where you have to change from pull to push, don't know if there is a name for it.. The movement where you have to pull yourself above the bar, and quickly change to push, and then push yourself up..

The best you can do for muscle up is pull up with false grip trying to arrive with your hands to your armpits. When you can do this easily then you simple have to put your hands under your armpits, by a quick movement, while your elbows go up. The transition is more a technique question than strength, at least if you are kipping a bit. The sloooow muscle up is another story.

So, pull ups with false grip to armpit (not just under the chin) and also try to do some controlled very deep dip, because you'll find that the dips in a muscle up are really dip until you gain strength.

[Danny]

Thanks, but what is the best way to train to reach that height.. Doing controlled negatives? Since it is already hard for me now to get my chin above the bar..

Later I will make a larger post, cause I have a lot of questions i'd like to ask you!

Regards, Danny.

[Danny]

Hi Danny,

This involved two workouts. One dynamic, which would be toward your muscle-up and include pushing and pulling, and one with static push and pull.

Workout 1

HSPU - You mean here that I should be doing negatives and other stuff which will help me work toward the free-standings HSPU's?

Pull-ups on rings - Sadly enough, I don't have Rings, but I can do pull-ups while holding two ropes hanging one meter apart from eachother?

Dips on rings - Same story, should I do dips on the towels?

Hanging leg raises (working toward full toes-to-bar ROM)

Legs - your choice

Workout 2

Handstand at wall What you mean here? Should I hold the handstand for as long as possible?

Planche progression

Front-lever progression

Static core: hollow hold, side planks, superman

Legs - your choice

This helps alot, thanks you George. Seems like two really nice challenging workouts, I like workout 2, since most of it are static exericses, which are pretty new to me. These 2 workouts will help me work toward Muscle-Ups, HSPU and Planches and Front levers?

Also, what about sets and repetitions?

Should I do low rep, but many sets. Like the 5x3 method I read about.. And then lower the rest times every once a while.. Or should I just do 3 sets of 90% of my abilitys.. So for example, I can do 8 dips, should I do 3 sets of 7 dips?

I was also planning to look around in the forum a lot, since I find it really interesting to read, and really like to be doing a muscle-up! This exercise is nice for a lot of activities!

By the way, so the only way to build up to a muscle-up is by doing high pull-ups and deep dips? I read somewhere that the muscle-up was 90% technique.

I look forward to hearing from anyone of you again!

Can anyone give me a good link to a site which give me a clear explanation of the hollow holds, side planks, supermans etc..

Greetings, Danny.

[David Picó García]

Yes is all about technique, but when you are strong enough. And also you can be strong and if you dont do false grip and know the tecnique of the transition you wont be able to do them. But first you have to arrive with your pullups to your armpits.

Simple do pull ups or chins on rings, you'll see that the gains in strength are fast, and soon (very soon in a few workout) you will be able to do 8. Then i think its enough to try.

Try to do at first 15 to 20 pullsup or chins. Think more in simply do them and dont think in sets, simply do as many as you need to arrive to that number.

When you can do those 8 reps in a row try when you are on the top to move the hands from the neutral position (palm facing each other) to the armpits by pointing your knuckles forward (on rings of course :wink:)

You'll find that muscle up arent really difficult compared with planche progression or levers.

Here you have how to do it with photos and at the end an incredible muscle up.

http://www.beastskills.com/MuscleUp.htm

For me the difficults of muscle up were first the false grip but in a few workouts i gained the strenght to hang with straight arm an perform the pull up. The way a could manage the transition was thinking than someone pushed my elbows up. In the link he talks about rolling the shoulder over the hands. That didnt help me until i thought in move the elbows up.

Today a could manage a slow muscle up (so slow a stopped at the first part of the transition) similar to the muscle up of the boy of the coach videos when performing the basic ring routine. So im still improving.

[Danny]

Thanks a lot serotonin!

I will go and practice the workout George told me, 3 times a week, and on one day I will be doing anaerobic training like sprints etc. Also I will train pull-ups with false grips already. Still I need some help about what to take as sets and reps, since I have no idea what's best.

And again, I don't have any rings to use, but in the future I will, although this can take a very long time. In the meantime I will just do whatever I can without rings.. I will read around on the forum for clarification about sets and reps, and look forward to hearing from any of you. :wink:

Greets, Danny.

[Danny]

My workout: Sets and Reps still unclear..

Workout 1

HSPU - 10xControlled Negatives, 10xHalf ROM

Pull-ups with false grip x 20.

Dips on rings x 20.

Hanging leg raises (working toward full toes-to-bar ROM) x 20

Overhead Squats x 20.

Workout 2

Handstand at wall static hold, 60 seconds total.

Planche progression

Front-lever progression

Static core: hollow hold, side planks, superman

20 Frog Jumps, 3x100m Hill Sprints.

Monday: Workout A

Wednesday: Workout B

Friday: Workout A

etc.

Is it possible/wise to do kickboxing on tuesday? At kickboxing we do lots of push-ups, and shoulders are involved in punching etc..

And can I train on 2 consecutive days, for example Monday: Workout A, Tuesday: Workout B, Wednesday: Rest. etc. Since this doesn't seam as a really time killing workout, my mind probably isn't satisfied with it.

And I now said 20 reps for everything, doesn't matter how many sets it takes me to get to this number. Is this the right way to think?

Greets, Danny.

[George Launchbury]

Hi Danny,

In terms of sets and reps, you need to look at what you are trying to gain.

If you want to get stronger (i.e. increasing ROM in HSPU) you need to work in sets of no more than 5 reps, with 2-3 minutes rest between. If you can do a half HSPU for 10 reps, then it is too easy.

To tie it down to a simple formula for you, I would say try and do 4 sets of 1-5 reps, with 2-3 minutes rest between sets. When you can do 5 reps for all 4 sets, make the exercise hard enough that you can manage only 3 reps for the first set. Don't start a rep you think you might fail.

Your workout logs for HSPU might look like this:

3,3,2,2 reps @ 16cm from ground (total 10 reps)

4,4,3,2 reps @ 16cm from ground (total 13 reps)

5,4,4,3 reps @ 16cm from ground (total 16 reps)

5,5,4,4 reps @ 16cm from ground (total 18 reps)

5,5,5,4 reps @ 16cm from ground (total 19 reps)

5,5,5,5 reps @ 16cm from ground (total 20 reps)

(It is now time to take a week off from this, and start again with increase in ROM)

3,3,2,2 reps @ 12cm from ground (total 10 reps)

4,4,3,2 reps @ 12cm from ground (total 13 reps)

5,4,4,3 reps @ 12cm from ground (total 16 reps)

5,5,4,4 reps @ 12cm from ground (total 18 reps)

5,5,5,4 reps @ 12cm from ground (total 19 reps)

5,5,5,5 reps @ 12cm from ground (total 20 reps)

(It is now time to take a week off from this, and start again with increase in ROM)

3,3,2,2 reps @ 8cm from ground (total 10 reps)

4,4,3,2 reps @ 8cm from ground (total 13 reps)

5,4,4,3 reps @ 8cm from ground (total 16 reps)

5,5,4,4 reps @ 8cm from ground (total 18 reps)

5,5,5,4 reps @ 8cm from ground (total 19 reps)

5,5,5,5 reps @ 8cm from ground (total 20 reps)

Etc...

N.B. this is not a schedule to be followed to the letter, just how it might look like following the above advice. Progress might be slower or faster. The key is that if you can do 5 reps for all 4 sets (with enough rest between) then you need a harder variation of the exercise, or additional load. Simply adding reps will increase strength-endurance rather than strength. There is nothing wrong with this ...depending on your goals.

For example, you might need to get stronger to do 1 muscle-up, then want to increase strength-endurance in that movement to be able to do 10 of them. The specific balance of strength vs endurance vs skill vs flexibility varies from movement to movement, and therefore so does the training. I would be wary of using a blanket set/rep scheme for all exercises unquestioningly, since they are sometimes better approached in different ways.

Often you can look at an exercise, and figure out what aspect of your conditioning is letting you down:

> Not strong enough to do something ...strength

> Unable to do it for long enough ...strength-endurance.

> Keep falling over ...skill

> My legs just don't do that ...flexibility

Hope some of this makes sense - it was kind of blurted out since short on time due to workload at the moment.

Regards,

George.

[Danny]

Hi George, thanks for you reply. I understand what you mean, as i'm getting stronger and be finally able to do 5 reps for 4 sets, I should increase the ROM, which will increase the difficulty, so I can get stronger again.

As my body seems to recover quite fast, is it oke to just keep alternating these 2 workouts? My burning questions which I still don't really get, is it oke to just train an exercise every day? For example can I just do dips 2 days in a row, and still get stronger at them? Since a lot of people on the internet tell me I should take atleast one day off before I train the same muscles again. Is this only when I go for hypertrophy?

I'd also like to add some 'Skin the cats' in one of these 2 workouts. Should I add them in the 'static workout' or in the other one. Since I am done with the static workout in less dan 30 minutes. The other workout takes me some more time.

Greets, Danny.

[George Launchbury]

Hi George, thanks for you reply. I understand what you mean, as i'm getting stronger and be finally able to do 5 reps for 4 sets, I should increase the ROM, which will increase the difficulty, so I can get stronger again.

Exactly.

As my body seems to recover quite fast, is it oke to just keep alternating these 2 workouts? My burning questions which I still don't really get, is it oke to just train an exercise every day? For example can I just do dips 2 days in a row, and still get stronger at them? Since a lot of people on the internet tell me I should take atleast one day off before I train the same muscles again. Is this only when I go for hypertrophy?

For strength training you need plenty of recovery for your muscles, nervous system and also tendons/ligaments. I would limit it to three workouts per week to start with. Overtraining will slow down your gains in strength, even though you might feel like you are doing more. It is possible to get enormously strong on 1-2 workouts per week. Also, a likely sign of overdoing strength training is tendonitis, which means stopping training for a while ...which makes you weaker!

I'd also like to add some 'Skin the cats' in one of these 2 workouts. Should I add them in the 'static workout' or in the other one. Since I am done with the static workout in less dan 30 minutes. The other workout takes me some more time.

Yup, stick them in after the static levers.

Keep us posted with your progress, and any further questions you might have. Have you considered keeping a workout log on the forum?

Cheers,

George.

[Danny]

Good idea! I will make a log so others can follow my progress, and it is nice for myself too. To read back how much I improved already.

I am practicing the planche for one week now, and already doubled the time I can hold the Frog Stand. The only thing I should watch out for is lowering my hips.

To be honest, I did some Skin the Cats on bars this afternoon, and man, they are awesome! I will add them in Workout B.

Do you know some other nice Gymnasts exercises which can be done on Rings AND bars? I know that doing them on bars will probably be way easier, since doing them on rings takes way more balancing skill..

Greets and thanks a lot for you time already! You really helped me out!

Danny.

[George Launchbury]

You're welcome. Glad to be of assistance.

I wouldn't add anything else into your workout schedule for now ...but that's not to say you can't play around with a few things from time to time just for fun

Cheers,

George.