Mixed Messages on Stretching - Seeking Some Clarity

[Dennis Drenner]

I'm a little confused about how often to stretch.  In the stretch series, you only seem to hit things once per week. I dug into the forum here and found a post where coach says then when you no longer feel sore after a stretch session, then you can try adding another session per week. 

Meanwhile, I had a PT telling me to stretch my hips and quads (tight areas for me) for about 30 minutes every day as an ideal. 

The one constant I have found in various pieces of advice is that the stretching should be uncomfortable but not painful, or that the pain goes away right after you stop the stretch. 

I am curious if anyone can fill me in on the ideal and most effective manner of stretching -- for both problem areas and maintenance? For example, if I do the stretch series once per week, would it be helpful to throw in some extra, more passive stretching, on my off days, at least for particularly tight areas? How much myofascial release (i.e. lacrosse ball torture!) would you throw in? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Everett Carroll]

Hi Dennis,

You are correct in that you don't want to be in excessive discomfort during your stretch sessions. To keep it safe and sustainable for long term progress, just show up and don't strain to push it too hard in any one session.  These gains are made over weeks, months, and years. 

If you have exceptionally tight quads and hips and your PT recommendeds daily stretching, then of course follow the professional advice.

I have a few tight areas that I hit 4-6 days per week before and after my other workouts. I typically only take a few minutes (5-10) to target those areas, as the mobility work from the Foundation and Handstand courses provides plenty of additional mobilizing. 

[Coach Sommer]

Hi Dennis,

There is a tremendous difference between the intense once per week stretch course and the lighter daily limbering that your PT is recommending.

Do the daily limbering each day except for designated hard stretch days.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Kevin Easton]

As far as limbers, what do you guys suggest as a decent limber routine one can do in the morning?

[Coach Sommer]

1 hour ago, Kevin Easton said:

As far as limbers, what do you guys suggest as a decent limber routine one can do in the morning?

Hi Kevin,

A recommended daily limber is taught in detail in Fundamentals.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Alexander Egebak]

The frequency of stretching is highly dependent on the level of the practitioners, the programming set forth and the daily life of the athlete.

The stretch series assumes that we are not professional athletes by profession and therefore assumes a very "bang for the buck" method of stretching each muscle group every 7 days hard and then recommends limbering (integrated into foundation, movement and handstand series mobility/dynamic strength work) close to daily to express our newfound flexibility and build strength within the range of motion we have.

This is good on many levels. Flexibility is mostly neurological, and therefore we are training the brain accept a wider range of motion. This provokes a neurological response to the muscles similar to that of DOMS which means that we can only expand range of motion every now and then. The other days we can limber as to help the brain remember the changes that happened during last session and help consolidate these.

Surely, as you begin to adjust to stretching itself you can perhaps begin to stretch every 6th, 5th or 4th day (and this is assuming that you are stretching HARD). However, you need to "earn" that awareness of your body by following a standardized approach, because most people are incapable of judging that because of ego and lack of knowledge/awareness of how their body functions.

[Dennis Drenner]

23 hours ago, Alexander Egebak said:

 

This is good on many levels. Flexibility is mostly neurological, and therefore we are training the brain accept a wider range of motion. This provokes a neurological response to the muscles similar to that of DOMS which means that we can only expand range of motion every now and then. The other days we can limber as to help the brain remember the changes that happened during last session and help consolidate these.

Thanks for your answer. 

Not sure what you mean about the neurological response similar to that of DOMS. Can you elaborate? 

 

[Alexander Egebak]

Stretching causes muscle soreness as well. Usually, muscle soreness caused by strength training is referred to as delayed onset muscle soreness. This soreness in both strength training and flexibility training is triggered by the nervous system, usually the less familiar you are with the training the stronger the response is.

[Kevin Easton]

What's you opinion of PNF stretching, or proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation stretching?

I read Pavel's book a while ago and he seems (at the time) to really push this type of stretching.  

 

[Alexander Egebak]

Everyone is pushing their personal product everywhere. The key is to find out what works best for you. PNF is a very good tool to have in your toolbox but you need diversity to achieve the greatest results.

The single best method for increasing flexibility that I know of is utilizing the the neural reflexes to your advantage, that is also part of PNF. 

[Suzanna McGee]

On October 12, 2016 at 11:23 AM, Alexander Egebak said:

The single best method for increasing flexibility that I know of is utilizing the the neural reflexes to your advantage, that is also part of PNF.

This is an interesting subject and interesting to hear how you feel about it. Please, elaborate… I think all of us reading this thread would like to hear

[Alexander Egebak]

So to make a long story short we want to enhance the communication from the muscles to the brain and back. Muscle tightness is a (sometimes faulty) protective mechanism that happens when we perceive a dangerous situation. That could be due to psychological stress, a position unfamiliar to the brain or simply not enough restitution. Flexibility training should reduce muscle tension, both resting tension and end position tension.

The most common reflexes that you can make use of are the reciprocal inhibition reflex, post-contraction, reflex and apprehension reflex. To keep it short let us take an example on how to make use of these reflexes.

We assume a standing pike position on an elevated surface and try to bend over forward as much as possible.

- To utilize the reciprocal inhibition reflex we much contract the antagonists of the muscles that we are stretching; here mainly the hip flexors and abdominals. Assuming that we are in the end position our entire backside will be tense to prevent the body falling into a perceived dangerous position. Using that to our advantage we can actively engage the front side to reduce tension in the back side and go deeper into the stretch.

- To utilize the post-contraction reflex we must in the end position make use of an artificial isometric contraction of the muscles being stretched. This action temporarily increases threshold for reactivation of some of the muscle fibers. This way you can go deeper into the stretch after the contraction because your body cannot involuntarily reactivate the muscle fibers due to the lingering time.

- To utilize the apprehension reflex we must use breathing. Taking in a breath causes small contractions throughout the body; similarly breathing out causing inhibitory signals to be sent to the muscles. Our brain perceives breathing out as a sign of safety. To make maximum use take a deep breath and breathe out slowly but heavily and allow yourself to sink deeper into the pike position.

After a 5-15 minutes time in various pike positions and specific stretches you have probably reached your current end range of motion and the brain must now consolidate the new information it has received, through rest and daily mobility training. Progress here is measured in brain perceiving the position as safe (unless you have fascial restriction from injuries and such).

[Sean Murphey]

that was a long way to say breathe

[Dennis Drenner]

On 10/12/2016 at 10:53 AM, Alexander Egebak said:

Stretching causes muscle soreness as well. Usually, muscle soreness caused by strength training is referred to as delayed onset muscle soreness. This soreness in both strength training and flexibility training is triggered by the nervous system, usually the less familiar you are with the training the stronger the response is.

You know, I don't think I've ever experienced soreness from stretching. I always work in the "moderately uncomfortable" range where the pain subsides soon after I stop stretching, but I don't recall ever feeling very sore after. Wonder if this means if I should be pushing harder? Stretching more? Stop being a wimp? 

[Randeep Walia]

On 10/12/2016 at 3:20 PM, Alexander Egebak said:

To utilize the post-contraction reflex we must in the end position make use of an artificial isometric contraction of the muscles being stretched. This action temporarily increases threshold for reactivation of some of the muscle fibers.

[Randeep Walia]

Alexander- can you clarify what an "artificial isometric contraction" is? Is that just basically pulsing deeper into the stretch?

[Rory O'Keeffe]

2 hours ago, Dennis Drenner said:

You know, I don't think I've ever experienced soreness from stretching. I always work in the "moderately uncomfortable" range where the pain subsides soon after I stop stretching, but I don't recall ever feeling very sore after. Wonder if this means if I should be pushing harder? Stretching more? Stop being a wimp? 

Personally I have only seen DOMS-style soreness from the calf work in the FSS (and holy hell was that some crazy DOMS) and some back shoulder/trap from the TBS bridge holds.

However, I do find that following the lower body stretching sessions my legs feel very fatigued from keeping the quads so strongly engaged the entire time and straining to maintain the requisite tightness. It's a different kind of fatigue than I feel from strength work - maybe you're already strong in that kind of tension creation so aren't feeling it as much?

I do notice that it's always worse if I push things too hard in a stretching session. That sounds obvious, but what I mean is that my level of post-workout muscle tiredness is massively increased over the norm if I have a single one of those "Oh s****" moments in say, MSS, when you push a bit too hard and feel it in your knees, having to use muscle to pull you back from the brink of a potential injury. This tallies well with all the neurological stuff surrounding stretching.

I know full well that this is a bad thing, by the way and it's not intentional. I'm still learning to treat stretching differently to conditioning and sometimes it's difficult to remember to be patient

[Suzanna McGee]

4 hours ago, Dennis Drenner said:

You know, I don't think I've ever experienced soreness from stretching. I always work in the "moderately uncomfortable" range where the pain subsides soon after I stop stretching, but I don't recall ever feeling very sore after. Wonder if this means if I should be pushing harder? Stretching more? Stop being a wimp? 

I never did before either, when doing my 20-30 minute stretching after my workouts, etc… since I have been doing the GST stretching programs, I feel soreness the next day. Not too bad, but I definitely feel it. A lot of it is in my upper hamstrings, where they connect to the bone. I get that after FSS and MSS. I think it's because I hold the stretches much longer compared to how I used to stretch, and it allows me to get into the position much deeper, using deep breathing and relaxation. I like it a lot, because I can see big progress from week to week. 

[Alexander Egebak]

On 12/10/2016 at 10:35 PM, Sean Murphey said:

that was a long way to say breathe

Breathing is just an example for the coined apprehension reflex; the point is to feel safe. Another way of demonstrating this safety is in a seated pike; lean forward as far as possible and then place a pillow between the legs and stomach. The cushioning will help the brain perceive this position as safe and you will go deeper than you would have if you forced the position.

10 hours ago, Dennis Drenner said:

You know, I don't think I've ever experienced soreness from stretching. I always work in the "moderately uncomfortable" range where the pain subsides soon after I stop stretching, but I don't recall ever feeling very sore after. Wonder if this means if I should be pushing harder? Stretching more? Stop being a wimp? 

It is hard to say. Usually soreness is a sign working hard enough, not feeling sore might be due to not stretching hard enough or not doing the right exercises (frequently enough). To answer your question I had to see you in person. But consider that something needs to change in your stretching sessions, my guess is that you are not challenged enough.

Personally, I just changed my stretching routine and experience soreness up until 4th or 5th day.

8 hours ago, Randeep Walia said:

Alexander- can you clarify what an "artificial isometric contraction" is? Is that just basically pulsing deeper into the stretch?

Artificial might be a wrong term to use here. English is not my native langauge. My point here being that we contract isometrically at our current end range of motion to short after be able to go deeper into a stretch.