New to gymnastic movement...

[super_hippie]

Hey everyone! Lets see, I started out as an overweight couch potato. I am 6'5'', and at 15 I was 240 pounds. Changed my ways, started running, mountain biking, doing a little climbing, and some swimming. Now I have progressed to doing CrossFit (just starting my 3rd month, and I love it). Now, at 25 I have lost down to 170, but have added close to 10 pounds of muscle, and am now up to 180. My favorite area of CF tends to be ring work. Gymnasts have always amazed me. I achieved a Muscle-up (feel free to critique it http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?v=app_2392950137&ref=profile&id=545495416#/video/video.php?v=377851165416) 2 weeks after getting my rings; which is driving my neighbor crazy. He has been doing CF for 2 years and still cannot do a MU. Side Note: the pole my rings are on sticks out to the side for a reason. I am going to get a climbing rope and that is where it will be attached when I use it so that I can still have access to my rings. I have also added a removable standard pull-up bar at 8 feet that allows me to do pull-ups and low ring work like push-ups, body rows, ring flys, etc. I am now training towards an Iron-Cross. My goal is to be able to Cross by my birthday in March, high hopes I know, but you have to start somewhere, haha. For those of you that subscribe to CFJ; I am using Tucker's method for training the Iron Cross. It seems to be working quite well ; but I am open to any other suggestions on how to achieve it.

I have also pulled off a successful Elbow Lever on the floor and on my Parallettes; and am working towards a Planche (man it's hard). I learned my False Grip through http://beastskills.com/tutorials.htm and my Elbow Lever. Since visiting Beast Skills, I have become more focused on, and slightly addicted to, bodyweight exercises and hand balancing. Yesterday I did a 20 second L-sit hold on the Parallettes. At the end my feet were vigorously shaking, hahaha. Even though I may not have a successful attempt, I am truly enjoying the challenges as I attack each one. I know I will eventually conquer the skills, but that it will take time. I am not trying to rush anything, well maybe the Iron-Cross, haha. But I do understand that many of these skills take a lot of time to develop and perform properly. I believe that I have the enthusiasm, patience, and determination to achieve my desired results. Any suggestions you have for me would be greatly appreciated.

I am not so much wanting to be a gymnast, rather, I am focusing on getting in the best shape of my life. I want to be able to control my bodyweight, with ease, in any position I may choose to get into.

I found your site about a week ago; and have done quite a bit of reading on here. Thanks for all that you have shared. I hope to give some decent input in the future. I am always open to comments/criticisms. I see that as one of the best ways to grow and improve my abilities. So, if you have an opinion on what I am doing, please share it. I am not easily offended, so be as harsh as you wish, haha. I am also an open book, so if you have a question about anything, ask away!

ETA: My current routine is doing CrossFit several times a week (4-6) with Skill days intermingled. I am also on day 29 of the 100 Day Burpee Challenge (day 1, you do one Burpee; day 2, 2 Burpees, day 3, 3 Burpees, etc.)

On day 25 of the challenge,

-25% of the days done

-325 total Burpees; only 6.4% of the total number that will be done by the end of the 100 days (5050 total).

-50% of total Burpees won't be reached until day 71

Following the 100 Day Burpee Challenge I will take a few days off; and then begin my 100 Day Tri-Burpee Challenge.

ETA2:My username came from the fact that I am called the Super Hippie at work. Hippie because I only eat Organic. Super just came about recently because I started showing some of my routines/exercises to people at work trying to get in shape.

[sasquatch]

Welcom to the forum!

I have almost the same build as you, I'm 6-4 and a half and around 170 lbs.

I would really like to learn the ironcross too. I tried training it seriousley for to weeks and It just got more painful for my shoulders and elbows. I realized I should be working on more basic strength positions and my rotator cuffs first.

This is how close I got to it on short straps.

On regular length straps I can only extend my arms 1/3 as far.

[Neal Winkler]

Super_hippie, welcome to the forum.

Sasquach is correct. Do not even bother with the iron cross right now. There are other basic exercise progressions that you should be able to accomplish before you begin training for an iron cross.

See Coach's comments here: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1988&p=12726&hilit=+iron+cross#p12726

Also, you will probably find it difficult to progress in gymnastics while maintaining that volume of Crossfit training. If you do, I foresee burn out in your future.

[super_hippie]

Thanks for the info and the vid, Sasquatch.

Trianglechoke7, I am going to scale back my CrossFit quite a bit and focus more on the gymnastic side of things and bodyweight skills. I pulled/tore a muscle under my left shoulder blade yesterday in a CF workout. I have never felt pain like this before. It hurts with every breath, turn, cough, etc. For the past hour it has felt like someone is putting a blow-torch on that portion of my back. From now on, my CF workouts will be at a scaled weight, but with higher reps; and I will only CF 2-3 times a week. The rest of the time will be dedicated to skill work and rest/recovery. I started building bulk quite quickly in CF; and I know that will eventually hinder my flexibility. I cannot lose my ability to do a split and freak people out, haha.

Thanks again you guys.

[Tarun Suri]

You can still do your metcons like usual but using gymnastic movements for high reps. But they won't be the usual pushups, situps, pullups, running variations. You're going to have more leveraged positions with tempo. That'll do the trick. Some of the movements/static holds will do more than what a strength day would do in CF, except for the lower body.

[Blairbob]

SuperHippie, if you use Tuck's methods for training the cross, make sure you work it with straight arms unless bent arms are acceptable for you.

[Coach Sommer]

if you use Tuck's methods for training the cross, make sure you work it with straight arms unless bent arms are acceptable for you.

Bent arms in an iron cross are never acceptable and are symptomatic of a weak biceps tendon insertion. As such the inability to straighten the arms is simply problematic of an incorrectly designed training program. There are no short cuts. Attempting to do so is simply a fast ticket to injury.

Preparing the Elbows for Iron Cross Training

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[super_hippie]

Thanks everyone, and thanks for the link Coach. I will definitely make sure that everything is ready before I attempt the Iron Cross.

[Blairbob]

Bent arms in an iron cross are never acceptable and are symptomatic of a weak biceps tendon insertion. As such the inability to straighten the arms is simply problematic of an incorrectly designed training program. There are no short cuts. Attempting to do so is simply a fast ticket to injury.

Coach Sommer, of course I know IC should be done with straight arms but the video SuperHippie is referring to http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CFJournal_TuckerIreland_IronCrossTrailer.wmv and the full video in the CFJournal showed many crossfitters performing them with bent arms; in fact many people who could barely hold a support or demonstrate any upper body ring strength. One individual may have done it correctly, perhaps another. There was quite a bit of ruckus about it on the forum, with myself and Steven Low chiming in besides Tuck. It was only a snippet of the actual seminar/CF gymnastics certification, but well...

Most people tend to bend their arms using the progression and I think using the ring trainers or bands/dream machine to assist or at least a block is far more useful besides doing it correctly.

I have played with the progression used in the video and just don't like it very much at all, never have as I played with it a few years ago as well. I use it similar to get beginner boys to support on rings (besides grabbing their shirt or short/pants).

Tuck did re-assure us that he went over other ring strength progressions not shown in the video in the seminar/cert. If you wish, I can probably dig up the thread.

However, too many people (crossfitters, collegiate club gymnasts, etc) are satisfied with bent arm crosses and elbow lever/maltese wannabee things or other poorly performed gymnastic skills. I just don't have the time, energy, or inclination to bother with the arguing (especially online) as some of these people refuse to listen or train them properly anyway but a half-ass way at best.

[super_hippie]

I plan on training for a proper Cross. I am the type that if I do something, I want to do it the right way.

[Blairbob]

Look for Steve Low's Iron Cross Article on PerformanceMenu. Too bad it doesn't have the pictures anymore. It was recently referenced in one of the threads.

Build-ups to the Iron Cross:

1. Ring HS

2. Advanced dipping

3. Planche/Back Lever

4. One Arm Chin/Pull-ups or cirques progressions after all the advanced pullup progressions.

5. Derr, strict slow MU. Eventually Wide-Arm MU, etc

[Coach Sommer]

... the full video in the CFJournal showed many crossfitters performing them with bent arms; in fact many people who could barely hold a support or demonstrate any upper body ring strength ... There was quite a bit of ruckus about it on the forum ... many people (crossfitters, collegiate club gymnasts, etc) are satisfied with bent arm crosses and elbow lever/maltese wannabee things or other poorly performed gymnastic skills ...

Elbow supported ring strength training can indeed be a great deal of fun, however it should always be considered merely supplemental as by its very nature it is incapable of strengthening the biceps tendon insertion. Yet the strengthening of this tendon is crucial for all future ring strength advances. It should therefore be clearly understood that in and of itself elbow supported ring strength training is completely insufficient to prepare the body for advanced ring strength elements.

Preparing the Elbows and Biceps for Iron Cross Training

A lack of knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Impatiently refusing to follow the correct ring strength progressions can lead to long term physical injuries; varying from tendonitis to torn biceps tendons and damaged shoulders. As such, bent-arm crosses are completely unacceptable; whether they are performed by an elite gymnast, college gymnast, OL, PL, crossfitter or fitness enthusiast. This has nothing to do with aesthetics and everything to do with the bodies' ability to generate power and to protect itself while doing so.

Developed patiently, higher level ring strength elements will provide astonishing gains in strength, size and power. However, if approached in a haphazard and lackadaisical manner the incidence of injury will increase dramatically with little to no gains to show for the increased risk.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Blairbob]

Steve and I laid into it pretty well. Roger H chimed in as well. When I was working crosses 7 years ago, I somehow managed to always work locked arms though I was basically learning gymnastics on my own.

When the OP of this thread posted he was interested in the IC, I took a fairly defensive stance because I have heard of other strong crossfitters in action working them incorrectly. There were quite a few at the CFGames08 who could not or would not even in Tyler's ring trainers. However the OP has shown interest in working them correctly, which is why he is here probably.

http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=52610

Another similar thread.

http://board.crossfit.com/showpost.php?p=703098&postcount=39

Both OP eventually realized this after our arguments. We had a college club from UCDavis work out at our gym over the summer. They have 3 guys working the Iron Cross, all incorrectly, and none really bothered to try to train it correctly. It was sort of an issue that I eventually gave up on since they don't care. I don't remember if the judge gave them value for some of their crosses though I'm sure for that 0.2 they deduction errors to the point of making it moot to perform it.

However, one guy from UCBerkeley did perform an Iron Cross in his routine to the letter which was even more impressive as he was around 5'10 (lightly built) with quite a bit of hyperextension in his elbows. So it's not that all collegiate club athletes err. He was quite impressive on the other events, but as he said- his strong events were UCB strong events so he could not get a spot on the team; though he was hoping to build his skills up in the unlikely case he could get on somewhere else and a partial or full scholarship.

I have that article archived locally in my gymnastics archive for the future.

I'm hoping by next fall, I can begin to work seriously on Iron Cross again. Right now, I have more pertinent things like a slow, strong MU and ring HS, planche and FL (somewhat favorable for my height of 5'+ though I need to lean out despite my lower body bulk). I can work crosses on my cross trainers, but currently I'm using them more for backward roll to support. The cross work is good but shouldn't be a focus of what I need to be working on. Perhaps in a few years, I will be employing them for one of my guys as a L8/9. Besides, they do not fit children well at all and he still has to clean up his press to shoulderstand and HS on rings though he can do the other statics.

[Gregor]

I have other problem :oops: This will be I guess only for Coach Sommer....

I have big problems with bending arms when shoulders roatation occours (like azarian to cross, or from hang slowely back roll to maltese). Elbows are not bended at end position but while am shoulders rotate. I bothered because it's not strength related, I simply can't have completly straight arms trhough entire ROM. I've tried to focus but no succsess, so it's big bad habbit.

So do you have any recomedation of slow many drill? Maybe to do "1000 reps" on a pully system in extremly slow manner with eyes on elbows when it occouring on rings? Or just try and try to correct it.