Gymnastics, weight training, and limitations

[bst]

I'm eager to get opinions on the issue of training both gymnastics and weights simultaneously, while at the same time dealing with various limitations (physiological as well as lack of certain facilities). Slizzardman, Braindx, Blairbob, Ido (to name a few): please chime in here as i think your knowledge and experience will be invaluable to the discussion, and i'm hoping that what develops in this thread might help others users who are asking some of the same questions.

First, I'll give some background on myself to use a preliminary case study: 36yrs old, 5'10'', 175lbs. My training age is 15yrs. Up until last year, my training consisted of solely weight training and various outdoor activities (cycling, trail running, etc.). The last 5 years or so I've been doing largly Oly lifts and other explosive-type movements. Being a massage therapist, I'm acutely aware of the dangers of overtraining/injury, and always include recovery/prehab protocols in my programs. I've a myriad of different phsyiological "issues", which i'm likely hyper-sensitive too due to my knowledge and vocation, and will not go into most of them here.

However, one in particular has plagued me for awhile now, and i know is also an issue for many readers: elbow/forearm pain and/or disfunction. For over a year now I've been unable to perform even simple activities without some sort of medial elbow pain. At one point it got so bad that i could not perform chinups for reps or more than a couple of power cleans before "failure". There is a history of joint disorder in my family (arthritis, structural limitations), and i suspect i have Degenerative Joint Disorder (DJD), meaning my body does not manufacture collagen and fibroblasts very effeciently. I went through a number of different rehab protocols, including taking almost a month completely off from any gripping type movements. This summer i began training gymnastics, including rings, and did not lift any weights for over 4 months. While I loved this type of training, eventually the elbow began to become an issue again (especially with front lever positions). After 10 weeks of training, I had to take another 3 weeks off completely (with active rest and rehab).

The crux of what I'm getting at is this: injuries that are due to genetic/hereditary factors as well as years of accumulated training trauma have to be mitigated if one does not wish to completely cease activities for an extended period of time, and even then the injury may never fully heal.

Questions: How should one go about managing varying issues while still continuing to progress?

As both chronological and training age increases, what have you found are essential practices in order to remain "healthy"?

Is it possible to make considerable progress at a later age, especially (as in my case) if your body does not recover sufficiently from high volume programs?

Can the gymnastics training (which tends to have a large neurological component to it, ie skill development) be melded with weight training to create an EFFECTIVE program that does not require hours of training a day or multiple daily sessions?

Lastly, for the majority of trainees who only have access to public gyms with little or no gymnastics equipment, what positions and/or skills should be utilized in that environment?

[Blairbob]

If you have a bar, you can pretty much work the levers and most of the stuff.

Sounds like you need to work on very low volume. Start out with literally 2 days a week and stay at this for quite awhile. Perhaps 1 day of lifing. Again light loads, limited volume. Perhaps SSC protocol.

Have you tried any supplements?

[bst]

on a daily basis i take:

fish oil

gluco/chondro/msm

vitamin C

glutamine

greens supplement

[Joshua Naterman]

I currently have a program similar to what you ask, a meld of gymnastics and traditional lifting without multiple sessions a day. What I am doing is probably the best blended solution for someone with access to only a gym, who owns a pair of rings. I will be having one day with kettlebells as well, I just bought a kettlebell handle that safely accomodates 85 lbs. That's quite a heavy bell, much heavier than I will be starting with. Kettlebell swings felt great, I'll be starting Pavel's kettlebell program when I receive it, and will use kettlebells once a week. There are truly certain muscles that you simply cannot work effectively without them. I have been doing dumbbell swings as of this past workout and it really feels good. I think they too will help me with both my shoulder recovery and the overall development of my strength. Coach Sommers himself has discussed the unexpected benefits of kettelbell swings for one of his trainees recovering from a shoulder injury. This is not a coincidence.

If you check my log in the workout log section of this board you will see how I work. I am starting to work some basic ring support holds and lever pulls into my regimen, since my elbow pain has kept me from doing them until recently. As for your elbow issues, without knowing whether it is a bone or soft tissue issue(tee hee, a rhyme!) we cannot really even begin to help. All I can say without knowing anything is that Pavel has a book called Super Joints. It's really good, and teaches the reader how to keep the joints healthy even in the face of congenital conditions. I can't make any promises but I think it is worth your time.

[bst]

Slizzardman,

As someone who has been using kbs for almost 10 years, I can attest to the tremendous benefits. I would highly recommend that you either get instruction from a qualified instructor or watch some detailed vids online from one. From my experience, the majority of people perform kb movements incorrectly. For example, the kb swing IS NOT a shoulder raise exercise, but rather a hip extension one, therefore the kbs swing is dependent upon how explosive your hip thrust is. Also, especially considering your history of elbow issues, be sure to always hold the kb with a neutral wrist. The difference between the kb and a dumbbell is that the weight is not in your hand with the kb. This is one of the things that makes it so effective in strengthening stabilizers and connective tissues...the flip side is that if used improperly they can cause considerable damage over time.

As for my injury, it's strictly soft tissue related. I've read much of Pavel's work, but not that book, I'll give it a look.

[Ryan Libke]

I can't really help with the pre-existing conditions, but I am about the same age and build (I am slightly older). I have been able to strength train without injury to date, at a level the probably exeeds that which I did in my twenties, in the sense of being able to either lift heavier, or to execute movements that require strength that I did not previously have, say, like muscle-ups. My warm-ups have become increasingly longer, specifically that part of the workout that consists of mobility and pre-hab training. I would be very hesitant to work out without the more extensive warm-up now. I also, regretably, need more time to recover, which is frustrating, because I want to do so much. However, if I am too active, or train too much, I will definitely notice a decline in the strength training. There are a few books on training for rock climbing (by Horst?) and he emphasizes that the older an athlete gets, the longer the warm-ups need to be. I find this to be very true.

You say you are a massage therapist. How much does your work affect your ability to recover? Massage therapy can be very taxing to the hands, wrists, and arms, so I am curious how much your work and your training together factor into your ability to recover.

[Joshua Naterman]

Slizzardman,

As someone who has been using kbs for almost 10 years, I can attest to the tremendous benefits. I would highly recommend that you either get instruction from a qualified instructor or watch some detailed vids online from one. From my experience, the majority of people perform kb movements incorrectly. For example, the kb swing IS NOT a shoulder raise exercise, but rather a hip extension one, therefore the kbs swing is dependent upon how explosive your hip thrust is. Also, especially considering your history of elbow issues, be sure to always hold the kb with a neutral wrist. The difference between the kb and a dumbbell is that the weight is not in your hand with the kb. This is one of the things that makes it so effective in strengthening stabilizers and connective tissues...the flip side is that if used improperly they can cause considerable damage over time.

As for my injury, it's strictly soft tissue related. I've read much of Pavel's work, but not that book, I'll give it a look.

It's always good to hear yet another recommendation. I watched Pavel's kettlebell videos, i am really a stickler on doing things right My wrists are, proportionally, the strongest part of my body. I will have no trouble maintaining the neutral wrist, and i will be very conscious of doing so! I figure I'll move up slowly, maybe 5 lb a month or less. I'm starting with 45 lbs, shouldn't be very difficult for me. I'm far beyond the strength level that Pavel recommends having for starting with 54 lbs, but I want to take it slow and be safe.

[bst]

I can't really help with the pre-existing conditions, but I am about the same age and build (I am slightly older). I have been able to strength train without injury to date, at a level the probably exeeds that which I did in my twenties, in the sense of being able to either lift heavier, or to execute movements that require strength that I did not previously have, say, like muscle-ups. My warm-ups have become increasingly longer, specifically that part of the workout that consists of mobility and pre-hab training. I would be very hesitant to work out without the more extensive warm-up now. I also, regretably, need more time to recover, which is frustrating, because I want to do so much. However, if I am too active, or train too much, I will definitely notice a decline in the strength training. There is a few books on training for rock climbing (by Horst?) and he emphasizes that the older an athlete gets, the longer the warm-ups need to be. I find this to be very true.

You say you are a massage therapist. How much does your work affect your ability to recover? Massage therapy can be very taxing to the hands, wrists, and arms, so I am curious how much your work and your training together factor into your ability to recover.

When i have a full workload (15-25 massages/week), i have to very carefully monitor both my volume and intensity. that being said, i've currently returned to school to finish a long overdue BA, and have not been working professionally for the last year (averaging around 3-5 massages/month on friends). i agree with you regarding the warmups, i have a rule that my warm/DROM and cool down/stretch time should be 30-50% of my total training time.

[bst]

Slizzardman,

45lbs should be no problem for you, i started with a 53lb bell and that was perfect. just remember form and function and things will progress quickly....as well as it's just another tool in the arsenal, not the end-all-and-be-all of workout devices as the fitness industry seems to be purporting these days...lol

[Joshua Naterman]

I'm planning on using them for the benefits to the upper rear shoulder girdle, primarily I am sure I will gain more than that from the KB work, but that's the main reason I'm using them. I like how my upper back feels after the swings, it's... I dunno, it feels like it will add a LOT of strength. And I never say no to more strength

[Romulo Malta]

Coach Sommers himself has discussed the unexpected benefits of kettelbell swings for one of his trainees recovering from a shoulder injury. This is not a coincidence.

Though I agree that kettlebells can be used for rehabilitation of the shoulder (like the Turkish get up you mentioned in another post) I'm with bst here in what swings will work more your hips and also your lower back.

As far as I know Coach Sommer mentioned KB swings to be a good supplement for planche training in the book (page 54) and he was doing rehab for the lower back (not shoulder) of one of his athletes, unless you are talking about another discussion I can't find in this forum.

[Joshua Naterman]

You might be right about the recovery being from a back injury I don't feel them in my back or hips much, but I'm also very strong there. The only thing I noticed was a halo of muscle soreness around my scapula, as if I had worked muscles that were not used to working.

Once I get to integrating this all the way into my training I'll know more about the possible benefits, but you must be right because I remember the part of the article that said the trainee in question saw a noticeable increase in his planche ability.

[bst]

You might be right about the recovery being from a back injury I don't feel them in my back or hips much, but I'm also very strong there. The only thing I noticed was a halo of muscle soreness around my scapula, as if I had worked muscles that were not used to working.

Once I get to integrating this all the way into my training I'll know more about the possible benefits, but you must be right because I remember the part of the article that said the trainee in question saw a noticeable increase in his planche ability.

Chances are that after you've adapted to using them, you won't really "feel" the swings anywhere (but rather everywhere). Most trainees tend to "feel" it in their lower back because they're not correctly utilizing the hip-hinge and causing their lumbar region to go into flexion during the lower part of the movement (a recipe for injury), largely due to a lack of dynamic hip flexibility. Unless you plan on using a monster kb in order to train for maximal strength, the use of the kb will be suited more to strength-endurance and conditioning. One thing kbs can be great for are complexes and/or conditioning circuits, especially if you have two of equal weight available. Exercises such as swings, clean & press, snatch, bent press, windmills are great for this. Of course, you can use the kb for all sorts of other movements, some that could be geared towards pure strength, there are many possibilities.

[Joshua Naterman]

I just got my kettlestack in the main and let me tell you something, that thing kicks ASS. For 60 bucks you get a kettlebell handle that can be loaded up to 90 lbs at least, and you get it FAST. I only ordered a few days ago! Of course, now that I see the design I can make my own from home depot for around 25 bucks for a set of two, probably even including the drill bit necessary and tax.

Anyhow, I do in fact intend to make this kettlebell very heavy, I am starting off with 50 lbs but will slowly work to using around 100. May take a year or two to do safely, but it will happen. Now I can do random sets of swings! Tee hee! I'm happy enough to Tee Hee! like a little girl.

[heinrich]

I don't feel them in my back or hips much

If your elbows are ready you got to meet somebody who can teach you the proper technique for SNATCHES.

You should definitely feel these in your upper back. :twisted:

Did you read and watch Pavels Enter the Kettlebell? I think these (book and DVD) in addition to a trainer checking your form should be the fewest things to do in order to use Kettlebells correctly.

Kettlebells and Rings together are perfect for athleticism!

[Joshua Naterman]

I didnt see anything for the snatches, but I did see the cleans. I have the book but haven't read it yet I used to do dumbbell snatches with the 95's, they are awesome. I haven't messed with the kettlebell snatches yet, I will definitely find videos that show how to do them with proper form.

[Longshanks]

BST,

I've been in a very similar position to you for a very long time now. A couple of years ago I started weight training to supplement my martial arts and was only 4 months in before I had elbow tendonitis on both sides, rotator cuff tendonitis on both sides, patellar tendonitis on left side and achilles tendonitis on both sides. Naturally, i got all the crap advice that physio's give about elastic bands, high reps etc which just made everything a lot worse for me. I saw a consultant who told me I've got mesenchymal syndrome, which is the weak joint disorder you're talking about (low collagen recuperative ability etc). I dont mean to demean your problem (I have immense compassion for anyone with injuries now whos loves some sport) but the diagnosis for mesenchymal is made by the presence of more than 2 areas of tendonosis on the body for >1 year despite physio efforts.

I'm just starting to get some really good results after 18months of no improvement from just doing nothing but isometric exercises and threw all dynamic work out of the window. Also, its important to learn the difference between tendonitis and tendonosis. If you've had it more than two weeks it's most likely tendonosis, which is massively under-diagnosed despite it being the most common problem by far. It's were the collogen in the tendon seems to twang at a very low level causing miss-alignment rather than them being uniformly straight as they should be. The histological films show them looking like a bowl of spaghetti left to dry in a bowl instead of straight rows. The main point is that it's not because of inflammation and so cold will just make it worse. You need to increase circulation so a hot water bottle against the joint for an hour a day before bed makes an awesome difference. For the elbow I started off with just gripping a bar supination and trying to twist thumbs inwards and squeeze for 30secs. Then grip pronation and try to twist pinky fingers inwards and squeeze for 30secs. Only grip to 50% of your strength, this is more than enough. I generally do this as part of a whole body workout 3 times a week so your body has good time to recover. I do a whole routine of isometrics which cover the whole body but won’t go into it as it's just your elbow that’s bad. Although I'd strongly advise you to do just isometric upper body work until your elbows are recovered as most upper body exercises still put a lot of stress on the elbows (i.e. Bench press/pull-ups). There’s lots of stuff you could do isometrically with a pull-up bar that wouldn’t be nearly as stressful for your joints, such as holding levers of just the top of a pull-up etc. Similar stuff can be done with press-ups, holding the bottom or doing planche stuff for straight arm work (paralletes are MUCH better on the elbows in my experience). You could do similar exercises with weights if you really wanted, just make sure you do SS cycles, tendons take months rather than days to strengthen unlike muscles.

You can always go back to plymetrics once you tendons are strong enough, but doing them with injuries in my opinion will only make them worse. Although I’ve never seen better training results than isometric work to be fair and I noticed a difference within a couple of weeks in my injuries. I’m 3 months into this training now and I’m a hair's breadth away from complete recovery now.

My theory on this (I'm a scientist with a few studies under my belt, one in the effects of massage interestingly) is that dynamic work puts a lot of friction on injured joints. In all anatomy the tendons tend to run over an edged piece of bone at the joint, like ropes over a piece of rock in rock climbing. If you tried pulling the rope back and forth over the rock face at the top, this would fray the rope over time. If you also have a genetic predisposition that equates to weaker rope then this would amplify the problem again. Taking into account the fact that you do a lot of plymetric type work (snatches in particular); I can only imagine this makes the stress on these injured joints amplified 10 fold. I've heard Coach Sommer advise in the past to cut out all plymetric work such as jumping during tendon injuries until resolved.

As a masseuse this will also put a lot of volume of work on your medial epicondyle joint. Is it the inside or outside of your elbow? If its your outside then you'll probably stand a much better chance of recovery as that isn't taxed as badly by using your thumbs all day. Either way I'd definitely invest in a tennis elbow support for during your massages as this will take a bit of stress off the weak tendon. I hope this helps bud.

[bst]

BST,

I've been in a very similar position to you for a very long time now. A couple of years ago I started weight training to supplement my martial arts and was only 4 months in before I had elbow tendonitis on both sides, rotator cuff tendonitis on both sides, patellar tendonitis on left side and achilles tendonitis on both sides. Naturally, i got all the crap advice that physio's give about elastic bands, high reps etc which just made everything a lot worse for me. I saw a consultant who told me I've got mesenchymal syndrome, which is the weak joint disorder you're talking about (low collagen recuperative ability etc). I dont mean to demean your problem (I have immense compassion for anyone with injuries now whos loves some sport) but the diagnosis for mesenchymal is made by the presence of more than 2 areas of tendonosis on the body for >1 year despite physio efforts.

I'm just starting to get some really good results after 18months of no improvement from just doing nothing but isometric exercises and threw all dynamic work out of the window. Also, its important to learn the difference between tendonitis and tendonosis. If you've had it more than two weeks it's most likely tendonosis, which is massively under-diagnosed despite it being the most common problem by far. It's were the collogen in the tendon seems to twang at a very low level causing miss-alignment rather than them being uniformly straight as they should be. The histological films show them looking like a bowl of spaghetti left to dry in a bowl instead of straight rows. The main point is that it's not because of inflammation and so cold will just make it worse. You need to increase circulation so a hot water bottle against the joint for an hour a day before bed makes an awesome difference. For the elbow I started off with just gripping a bar supination and trying to twist thumbs inwards and squeeze for 30secs. Then grip pronation and try to twist pinky fingers inwards and squeeze for 30secs. Only grip to 50% of your strength, this is more than enough. I generally do this as part of a whole body workout 3 times a week so your body has good time to recover. I do a whole routine of isometrics which cover the whole body but won’t go into it as it's just your elbow that’s bad. Although I'd strongly advise you to do just isometric upper body work until your elbows are recovered as most upper body exercises still put a lot of stress on the elbows (i.e. Bench press/pull-ups). There’s lots of stuff you could do isometrically with a pull-up bar that wouldn’t be nearly as stressful for your joints, such as holding levers of just the top of a pull-up etc. Similar stuff can be done with press-ups, holding the bottom or doing planche stuff for straight arm work (paralletes are MUCH better on the elbows in my experience). You could do similar exercises with weights if you really wanted, just make sure you do SS cycles, tendons take months rather than days to strengthen unlike muscles.

You can always go back to plymetrics once you tendons are strong enough, but doing them with injuries in my opinion will only make them worse. Although I’ve never seen better training results than isometric work to be fair and I noticed a difference within a couple of weeks in my injuries. I’m 3 months into this training now and I’m a hair's breadth away from complete recovery now.

My theory on this (I'm a scientist with a few studies under my belt, one in the effects of massage interestingly) is that dynamic work puts a lot of friction on injured joints. In all anatomy the tendons tend to run over an edged piece of bone at the joint, like ropes over a piece of rock in rock climbing. If you tried pulling the rope back and forth over the rock face at the top, this would fray the rope over time. If you also have a genetic predisposition that equates to weaker rope then this would amplify the problem again. Taking into account the fact that you do a lot of plymetric type work (snatches in particular); I can only imagine this makes the stress on these injured joints amplified 10 fold. I've heard Coach Sommer advise in the past to cut out all plymetric work such as jumping during tendon injuries until resolved.

As a masseuse this will also put a lot of volume of work on your medial epicondyle joint. Is it the inside or outside of your elbow? If its your outside then you'll probably stand a much better chance of recovery as that isn't taxed as badly by using your thumbs all day. Either way I'd definitely invest in a tennis elbow support for during your massages as this will take a bit of stress off the weak tendon. I hope this helps bud.

Longshanks,

Thanks very much for the detailed response. I am familiar with the differences between tendonitis and tendonosis, and it is the latter which I most likely have. Highly likely that I have mesenchymal, as I've a number of joint/connective tissue issues (chondro in knees, elbows, wrists, ankles). I have not been doing Oly lifts for over 6 months now, and am concentrating mostly on BW exercises. I still am performing dynamic movements for UB, mostly chins and presses, and my elbows feel ok if I keep the reps low. FL tucks bother them slightly, but its not so much pain that I feel as massive tension. I've been doing eccentric exercises as rehab/prehab, but will also incorporate the isometric supination/pronation contractions you've mentioned.

I'm fully aware of both traditional and non-traditional rehab protocols, and have read many studies and articles regarding this subject, but its always good to hear from those who've actually experienced things themselves. Having spoken to a number of rock climbers, I'm convinced that I can return to full fuctionality (with the possibility of flare ups from time to time). In regards to wearing a sleeve or brace, I do so when training and sometimes periodically throughout the day, but my massage work relies heavily on my elbows so I cannot wear then.

On a side note, in regards to position of the tendon attachment via the bone: this is one of the reasons that, when I'm treating a client with tendon/connective tissue issues, I always "support" the tendon by stripping the soft tissues towards and not away (thereby not putting added stress on the already damaged tissues). The only time I incorporate a lengthening of the fibers is when i "pin" the tendon using heaving compression and then slowly stretch the muscle fibers.

[Longshanks]

Sorry to hear that bud, wouldn't wish it on anyone. Good luck with the physio, dont forget the hot water bottle. Its priceless!