Hi! Looking for a 3/4 day training programme

[Kris Jenkins]

Hi There

This is my first post here!

After watching the mens all round final at the o2 last week i was inspired to begin to train to gain the strength and ability to perform strength holds such as those perfomed by the gymnasts there. Which was and is quite frankly amazing.

i trained gymnastics in my childhood for 10 years, 6-15 yrs old, quitting after many injuries to my knees through tumbling and breaking my coccyx after missing a release and catch move on the high bar. This wasn't the only reason, lack of motivation and determination to succeed at my weakness - pommel horse, was also a major factor. many years later i feel inspired to begin to be able to do it again, though i know the strength development factor is there, i need to train right first before i can consider doing the actual gymnastics. strength hold wise, i can preform half lever, hold a handstand for a good while, straddle press to handtsand from standing, and frog hold for 1 min. tried the tucked planche, but only managed 6 or so seconds.

At that time, i had great strength for my age, and could perform some good presses on bars and rings, and of course all of my strength traing was perfomed through body weight training, no free weights.

Last night i went to my local gymnastics centre and spoke with a fairly decent russian coach who put me through my paces, he asked to see what i could do. a swing to handstand on parallel bars and a half lever hold were about it. Now training wise at the gym, i have come along way in size, thanks to a good diet and training programme, developed quite a good lean physique over the last 6 months. All this meant nothing last night as i tried to shift my own body weight through various exercises.

I performed sets of handstand presses on the paralettes 3x5 ( i weigh 85 kgs, it was hard work ), upper arm dips 4x 25 with holds for 15 secs at the end and widening the bars with each set. Hanging leg raises from the high bar, again holding at half lever, twisted sits ups with knees on the floor facing one way and again a hold for 10 secs after a measley 10 reps, lumbar lifts off a horse with a twist at the top each way for 4 sets working the lower back ( felt much like doing deadlifts to me afterwards ) and then some very hard leg work, squat jumps the length of the floor x4, immediately in to step ups on a 3 ft high bench x10 leading with each leg, then 20 high tuck jumps in the foam pit. doing this twice killed me and i very nearly threw up.

anyway to get me to my point and questions.

i really want to persue this kind of training to develop this different strength required, but i also want to try to maintain the lean mass i have gained recently.

are there people here that train using their bodyweight on a regular basis, or use freeweights at high reps ( as many as 30 reps were suggested to me with 30 secs rest to develop more strength whilst lifting ) whilst maintaining a good size? maybe alternating lifting at the usual 6-12 rep range.

i was put through an almost all over body work out, which was good, but would to train as i do at precnt with a 3 day split, i currently would train with free weights push, pull, legs.

i can't wait to be able to get back on the rings and bars, tumbling and vaulting and can still do, no problem, but i know this body weight training and high rep free weight training is essential.

anyone's experience that they can pass on or advice would be great. here goes to something new!

[Blairbob]

half lever, as in L-sit or L-hang?

6-12 rep phases will build some strength but not as much as 3-5 rep ranges.

maintaining weight and body fat is a function of nutrition and diet.

more than likely, the reason you felt "pukie" come up was you worked such exercises to an exhaustive state taxing you metabolically ( think cardio ).

[Kris Jenkins]

hi Bob

yes half lever as in l-sit in parallel bars.

handstand press i managed 3x 5 reps. other exercises were easier in the high rep ranges, when i train at the gym using weights my rep range is 6-8, as up until now i have been stimulating maximum muscle growth. i'm probably around 10% BF.

i was just unsure that with bodyweight training the gain in lean muscle mass may be lost slightly, but evidently not.

do you have any recomendations on basic exercises which i can perform which will help me develop strength to perform gymnastics moves once again? i have searched through the forum and found some, but the acronyms used i am unfamiliar with.

i am looking into building a ring pulley system in my garage, and perhaps investing in some rings to hand so i can perform bulgarian xr dips amongst other things. but at the minute im at a lose end as to what exercises to perfrom and on what day.

my current training looks as follows -

Mon

incline DB press 6-8 reps failure x4 sets on each 2- 3 mins rest between each set

incline fly

flat db press

cable cross over

tricep french press

tricep cable pull down

Wed

leg extension 4x 8 reps

leg press - begin with 12 reps working down to 8 whilst increasing weight each set x4

parallel box squat - as above

hack squat - as above

lying leg curls - 4x8

calf raises on smith machine, triple drop set x3 short rests

Friday

wide grip chins 4x as many as i can manage normally between 12 and 8

Bent over BB Row 4x8 ( last set 6 )

deadlift 4x sets rep renage from 8 down to 2

hammer strength pull machine seated 4x8

BB bicep curl 4x8

and possibly one more bicep exercise.

Low intensity cardio 45mins to 1 hr 6 days / week.

obviously this is a body builders programme. would be excellent to have a recomendation of something that will work me all over to develop the strength i require to get back on p.bars and rings. at the minute i can just about swing to handstand on the bars!

thanks again

[Kris Jenkins]

anyone out there that would care to make some sort of suggestion for me?

Thanks

8)

[Joshua Naterman]

Check my training log to see some of what I am doing. I am not doing as much gymnastics as I would like because I started doing heavy planche work before my elbows were ready. I was doing straddle holds for a few seconds, deep fingers backwards planche leans, etc with only about 4-5 months training gymnastics style. I am around 189 cm tall and a little over 100kg, to give you an idea of my size. I'm a big guy.

Training log: http://gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2647

I train weights 3 times a week, and gymnastics 3 times a week as well, currently as one mixed workout (Ideally these would be separated by 4 hours but still done on the same day, with light gymnastics done on the heavy day, medium gymnastics on the light weight day, and hard gymnastics on the medium weight day). The workouts are somewhat integrated. What I do works like this:

Workout 1: Heavy weights. sets of 3 reps with 90% of estimated 1 rep max on all exercises, full body. Performed 72 hours after workout 3. If workout 3 was Friday, this would be Monday. 8-10 total sets per muscle group. I do 2-3 sets flat bench with 276 lbs, 2-3 sets incline bench with 246, and 2-3 sets weighted dips with 120 lbs added. 2-3 sets bent-over rows with 185-275 ascending each set, 2-3 sets weighted pullups with 90 lb added, and 2-3 sets front lever rows in a bent leg straddle. I also do 2-3 sets of shrugs, but that's worked in with the deadlifts so I don't count that here. That's upper body. Then I do lower body. 4 sets squats with 286, 4 sets deadlifts(with a shrug at the top of each rep) with 435. That's getting too easy, so in a week or two I might go up to 5 sets, but I'm not sure. I usually do 1-3 sets with my biceps directly, one set of straight bar curls with 145 lbs and 0-2 sets of concentration curls with 60-70 lbs, all 3-5 reps. Then I do abs. Usually 2 sets of body levers, 1-2 sets of weighted inverted situps, and 1-2 sets of hanging windshield wipers. All of those are currently done with 8-12 reps, since I have not started using ankle weights to make the body levers harder. I probably will soon. This workout increases my maximal strength and ATP/CP energy system. It is mostly weights, though I will put some cross pulls and things like that in as I am able to. That's a long way off, though. Elbows are still healing I used to do HeSPU on this day but am now moving that to the next day, which other than that is a rest and recovery day. I do some rehab work and various shrugging to strengthen the whole shoulder girdle, but not heavy and not much volume. Also some running, sprints and that sort of thing mostly.

Workout 2: Light weghts. Performed 48 hours after workout 1. If workout 1 was Monday, workout 2 would be Wednesday.

This workout is very light, sets of 20-30 reps. This develops the ATP/CP system and Anaerobic glycolosis system and promotes healing. I work with 50% or less of my 1 rep max. I do pushups, 1 set flat and incline dumbbell bench press with 40 lb dumbbells, body weight dips, body weight pullups(currently small sets of 5-8 since my elbows hurt with higher reps), chest supported dumbbell row with 40 lb dumbbells, victorian dumbbell press with 25 lb dumbbells, bodyweight squats, front squats with just the bar, back squat with 135 lb, straight leg deadlift(with shrug at the top) with 225 lb, concentration curls with 35lb dumbbells, shoulder press with 35 lb dumbbells. I do some assorted ab work, usually Pavel-style situps. All are sets of 20-30 reps. This light weight forces blood through all my muscles and accelerates healing, helps preserve strength gains from workout 1, and improves endurance and work capacity. This workout would benefit from a separate gymnastics session with moderate difficulty elements like pseudoplanche pushups, some static work, tucked FL rows, FL pulls, jump work, ring dips, tucked planche pushups, etc. For me the tucked planche pushups aren't much harder than dips.

Workout 3: Moderate weights. Performed 48 hours after workout 2. If 2 was wednesday, this would be Friday. I feel very, very strong on this day. Usually 6-8 sets of 8-14 reps per muscle group. 2 sets of shoulder press(and usually 1 or 2 of HeSPU, but just 2 reps of those)2 sets Incline bench with 185, 2 sets flat bench with 185(set 1) and 225(set 2), bent over row with 185 and 225(same as bench), 2 sets dips with 40 lbs added, pullups with 40 lbs added(again sets of 5-8 with these to protect my elbows as they heal), squats with 185 and 225, deadlifts with 295 and 365, 2 sets of The Shrimp per leg, 2 sets SLS per leg, 2 sets GHR. Usually no specific bicep work, and bodyweight inverted situps for abs. SOmetimes hanging windshied wipers as well. This is by far my shortest workout, though they all take an hour or less. This workout develops the ATP/CP and anaerobic glycolysis systems, with a mixed strength and hypertrophy training effect. This day would benefit from a separate gymnastics session consisting of cross pulls, muscle ups, planche pushups, weighted ring dips, harder progression front lever and back lever work, etc.

In each case, ideally the gymnastics session should be finished 4+hours before the weight session. Light gymnastics work before the heavy weight work helps prepare the muscles and joints, moderate work before light weights doesn't require too much recovery but still reminds muscles they are strong, and heavy gymnastics work before the moderate weight work allows for the strength from workout 1 to be transferred to the most difficult gymnastics skills currently being practiced with a well-rested and fully recovered body. This should be done with low volume, as should the moderate weight training. This limits the damage done and ensures that the body will be at full strength for next week's workout 1. Skill work should be done on rest days after the light and moderate workouts, and not so much that it requires significant recovery.

Proper modulation of these intensity, volume, and frequency levels will allow for rapid strenght and progression gains. One word of caution: Your muscles will get strong faster than your tendons. Go slow with all straight arm work. You'll be able to hold certain positions long before your tendons and ligaments are ready for the strain, so go nice and slow just like the book says. In my arrogance and ignorance I went ahead and started doing straddle planches and cross work before my elbows were ready and I have been rehabbing my elbows for over a month now. They'll be ok by new year's, but that's a long time to have to scale back training. Be smart and you won't have to worry about that!

Also, If your intention is to compete in gymnastics, once your heavy day is sets of 3 with close at least 1.5x bodyweight on upper body presses and at least 1.75x bodyweight with squats you should slowly shift to more gymnastics stuff, like instead of so many sets of deadlifts and squats maybe only do 2 or 3 of each, and throw in extra GHR, SLS, and SHrimps. The idea is to use this integrated approach to get your muscular strength up to what you need for high level competition, and then maintain that as you continue to develop your gymnastic skills. As Coach says, you only need a certain level of Maximal Strength. It's high, but you don't want to keep working like I am forever if you intend to actually compete gymnastics. For a year or two as you get your strength to peak is ok, but even after the first year you're going to want to slowly switch from maybe 50% of all training being weight work down to 20-30% weight work. Pay attention to your gymnastics progress too. You want to be getting better regularly. If your progress slows as you take the weight work out, put it back in and see if it speeds up again. Be smart, if something is working for you keep using it.

I do what I do because I enjoy having high level athletic ability in all areas. Explosive strength, maximal, endurance, gymnastics positions, sprinting, short and medium distance runs, etc. My goal is to be an all-around high level competitor, and it's working. I will always keep an even balance between the various training types that I use, because I want to be say top 15 in all, not top 5 in one. That way, if I do ever choose to specialize it will be a short road to the top. If you decide to go for gymnastics stardom you'll need to focus towards that specifically, though at our size it's not as likely as the small guys

[Guest cccp21]

Check my training log to see some of what I am doing. I am not doing as much gymnastics as I would like because I started doing heavy planche work before my elbows were ready. I was doing straddle holds for a few seconds, deep fingers backwards planche leans, etc with only about 4-5 months training gymnastics style. I am around 189 cm tall and a little over 100kg, to give you an idea of my size. I'm a big guy.

Training log: http://gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2647

I train weights 3 times a week, and gymnastics 3 times a week as well, currently as one mixed workout (Ideally these would be separated by 4 hours but still done on the same day, with light gymnastics done on the heavy day, medium gymnastics on the light weight day, and hard gymnastics on the medium weight day). The workouts are somewhat integrated. What I do works like this:

Workout 1: Heavy weights. sets of 3 reps with 90% of estimated 1 rep max on all exercises, full body. Performed 72 hours after workout 3. If workout 3 was Friday, this would be Monday. 8-10 total sets per muscle group. I do 2-3 sets flat bench with 276 lbs, 2-3 sets incline bench with 246, and 2-3 sets weighted dips with 120 lbs added. 2-3 sets bent-over rows with 185-275 ascending each set, 2-3 sets weighted pullups with 90 lb added, and 2-3 sets front lever rows in a bent leg straddle. I also do 2-3 sets of shrugs, but that's worked in with the deadlifts so I don't count that here. That's upper body. Then I do lower body. 4 sets squats with 286, 4 sets deadlifts(with a shrug at the top of each rep) with 435. That's getting too easy, so in a week or two I might go up to 5 sets, but I'm not sure. I usually do 1-3 sets with my biceps directly, one set of straight bar curls with 145 lbs and 0-2 sets of concentration curls with 60-70 lbs, all 3-5 reps. Then I do abs. Usually 2 sets of body levers, 1-2 sets of weighted inverted situps, and 1-2 sets of hanging windshield wipers. All of those are currently done with 8-12 reps, since I have not started using ankle weights to make the body levers harder. I probably will soon. This workout increases my maximal strength and ATP/CP energy system. It is mostly weights, though I will put some cross pulls and things like that in as I am able to. That's a long way off, though. Elbows are still healing I used to do HeSPU on this day but am now moving that to the next day, which other than that is a rest and recovery day. I do some rehab work and various shrugging to strengthen the whole shoulder girdle, but not heavy and not much volume. Also some running, sprints and that sort of thing mostly.

Workout 2: Light weghts. Performed 48 hours after workout 1. If workout 1 was Monday, workout 2 would be Wednesday.

This workout is very light, sets of 20-30 reps. This develops the ATP/CP system and Anaerobic glycolosis system and promotes healing. I work with 50% or less of my 1 rep max. I do pushups, 1 set flat and incline dumbbell bench press with 40 lb dumbbells, body weight dips, body weight pullups(currently small sets of 5-8 since my elbows hurt with higher reps), chest supported dumbbell row with 40 lb dumbbells, victorian dumbbell press with 25 lb dumbbells, bodyweight squats, front squats with just the bar, back squat with 135 lb, straight leg deadlift(with shrug at the top) with 225 lb, concentration curls with 35lb dumbbells, shoulder press with 35 lb dumbbells. I do some assorted ab work, usually Pavel-style situps. All are sets of 20-30 reps. This light weight forces blood through all my muscles and accelerates healing, helps preserve strength gains from workout 1, and improves endurance and work capacity. This workout would benefit from a separate gymnastics session with moderate difficulty elements like pseudoplanche pushups, some static work, tucked FL rows, FL pulls, jump work, ring dips, tucked planche pushups, etc. For me the tucked planche pushups aren't much harder than dips.

Workout 3: Moderate weights. Performed 48 hours after workout 2. If 2 was wednesday, this would be Friday. I feel very, very strong on this day. Usually 6-8 sets of 8-14 reps per muscle group. 2 sets of shoulder press(and usually 1 or 2 of HeSPU, but just 2 reps of those)2 sets Incline bench with 185, 2 sets flat bench with 185(set 1) and 225(set 2), bent over row with 185 and 225(same as bench), 2 sets dips with 40 lbs added, pullups with 40 lbs added(again sets of 5-8 with these to protect my elbows as they heal), squats with 185 and 225, deadlifts with 295 and 365, 2 sets of The Shrimp per leg, 2 sets SLS per leg, 2 sets GHR. Usually no specific bicep work, and bodyweight inverted situps for abs. SOmetimes hanging windshied wipers as well. This is by far my shortest workout, though they all take an hour or less. This workout develops the ATP/CP and anaerobic glycolysis systems, with a mixed strength and hypertrophy training effect. This day would benefit from a separate gymnastics session consisting of cross pulls, muscle ups, planche pushups, weighted ring dips, harder progression front lever and back lever work, etc.

In each case, ideally the gymnastics session should be finished 4+hours before the weight session. Light gymnastics work before the heavy weight work helps prepare the muscles and joints, moderate work before light weights doesn't require too much recovery but still reminds muscles they are strong, and heavy gymnastics work before the moderate weight work allows for the strength from workout 1 to be transferred to the most difficult gymnastics skills currently being practiced with a well-rested and fully recovered body. This should be done with low volume, as should the moderate weight training. This limits the damage done and ensures that the body will be at full strength for next week's workout 1. Skill work should be done on rest days after the light and moderate workouts, and not so much that it requires significant recovery.

Proper modulation of these intensity, volume, and frequency levels will allow for rapid strenght and progression gains. One word of caution: Your muscles will get strong faster than your tendons. Go slow with all straight arm work. You'll be able to hold certain positions long before your tendons and ligaments are ready for the strain, so go nice and slow just like the book says. In my arrogance and ignorance I went ahead and started doing straddle planches and cross work before my elbows were ready and I have been rehabbing my elbows for over a month now. They'll be ok by new year's, but that's a long time to have to scale back training. Be smart and you won't have to worry about that!

Also, If your intention is to compete in gymnastics, once your heavy day is sets of 3 with close at least 1.5x bodyweight on upper body presses and at least 1.75x bodyweight with squats you should slowly shift to more gymnastics stuff, like instead of so many sets of deadlifts and squats maybe only do 2 or 3 of each, and throw in extra GHR, SLS, and SHrimps. The idea is to use this integrated approach to get your muscular strength up to what you need for high level competition, and then maintain that as you continue to develop your gymnastic skills. As Coach says, you only need a certain level of Maximal Strength. It's high, but you don't want to keep working like I am forever if you intend to actually compete gymnastics. For a year or two as you get your strength to peak is ok, but even after the first year you're going to want to slowly switch from maybe 50% of all training being weight work down to 20-30% weight work. Pay attention to your gymnastics progress too. You want to be getting better regularly. If your progress slows as you take the weight work out, put it back in and see if it speeds up again. Be smart, if something is working for you keep using it.

I do what I do because I enjoy having high level athletic ability in all areas. Explosive strength, maximal, endurance, gymnastics positions, sprinting, short and medium distance runs, etc. My goal is to be an all-around high level competitor, and it's working. I will always keep an even balance between the various training types that I use, because I want to be say top 15 in all, not top 5 in one. That way, if I do ever choose to specialize it will be a short road to the top. If you decide to go for gymnastics stardom you'll need to focus towards that specifically, though at our size it's not as likely as the small guys

********** How can you do such heavy dips with your elbows still healing? You seem to have a very light bench for the amount of weight you can dip with. Second how do you know that your joints are ready ?

Brandon Green

[Joshua Naterman]

My elbow pain is in the inner elbow, wrist and forearm flexors and associated tendons. Brachialus and I don't know the others But they have nothing to do with dipping. They used to hurt with the benching, but not currently. And you're right, I do have a low bench press for the amount of weight I can do on everything else. That's because of my shoulders being weak compared to triceps and pecs, as well as rotator injuries and various scapular dysfunctions that I am currently working on correcting. I am now adding 1 lb a week, so in a year I'll be doing my sets with 325, and in two years 375. That's the idea, anyways It's nice, slow progress. I'm not in a hurry. Being in a hurry gets people hurt I have finally learned that lesson Took long enough.

The funny thing is that those dips are nowhere near as heavy as I can handle, I'm just taking nice slow steps. I can probably do +140 lbs right now, and by summer I will probably be able to do close to +body weight, but I'm not going to. I figure 2 lbs a week on the dips will be enough for now, so by summer +170 or 180. I have always been pretty monstrously strong there. I'm not kidding or exaggerating when I say I used to do 50 dips with 120 lb dumbbells between my knees