Discrepancies in Military Pressing vs HSPU strength

[Coach Sommer]

The confusion, and subsequent discrepancy in these overhead pressing strength ratios, usually arises from comparing what are essentially as different as apples and oranges. Non-gymnasts have a tendency to confuse headstand pushups (HeSPUs) with handstand pushups (HSPUs). HeSPUs are the popular partial ROM movement where the body only lowers until the top of the head contacts the ground. These are several orders of magnitude easier than true HSPUs. As an illustration, consider the difference in difficulty between a military press where the weight never goes below the top of the head and a military press where the weight descends to the collar bones.

HeSPUs are an essential step in the process of developing HSPU strength, however it should be recognized that they are the journey's beginning - not the end. If you have progressively built up to HSPUs in your training (rather than remaining with HeSPU variations) you will be able to military press AT LEAST your bodyweight; depending on how far through the HSPU variations you have progressed.

Remember resistance is resistance; it does not matter if it is a pound of iron or a pound of bodyweight - used methodically and with dedication the end result is still greater strength.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Wade]

Great advice coach,

I have got to the stage of doing 3 sets of 10 reps of HeSPUs and i thought that was pretty good and i didn't know where to go from there.

I tried full HSPUs and dam there hard, but now i have a new goal.

Thanks Coach,

wade

[Raizen]

I think you should start collecting the extermely useful and informative articles on the forum (like this one, which I found amazingly useful), and merge them all into one big super thread, then sticky it.

[JaredLLL]

I dont find Coach's arguement useful in comparing Mil pressing vs hspu strength except in the end where stating resistance is resistance.

I tend to find that my shoulders, or just stability overall, feels weaker when pushing overhead rather then while inverted and pushing the body up and down. This difference is significant enough in that the two feel dramatically different. I do agree though that resistance is resistance, and pounds are pounds, but as gymnastics has shown clearly, how it is applied can change the nature of that resistance considerably.

I'd reason that because of lifting overhead, and the subsequent change in the center of gravity(COG), the body is significantly more taxed to maintain stability then while doing inverted HSPU's. In a HSPU the COG is much lower to the ground, since there is no added weight, and if there is its via a wieght vest which changes the COG relativilty little, making it a less difficult total body workout then while overhead pressing.

On that note i'll further that overhead pressing is more useful to a functional application of force then by a HSPU( or HeSPUs) because of exercises such as the push press and jerk press. To clarify, those movements teach the body to use the body more efficiently overall rather then in a strict setting. This arguement, however, is a tangent from mil pressing vs hspu.

Going back to the COG issue, a mil press of bodyweight or more is definately more taxing to maintain proper control and balance vs a HSPU where the overall weight is much less on the stabilizers(torso) while for the primary movers ( shoulders/tri's) the weight is the same..

And on that note, the HSPU presents itself as a much safer movement for the aquisition of strength from those primary movers, the shoulders and tris.

[Blairbob]

For myself, the ROM for a Headstand to Handstand pushup is about 40% less than a full ROM HSPU on parallettes. If you compare some subject's military press to this figure it comes up about right. I did some exhaustive research last summer on the percentage of BW at different angles in a pushup from inclinated pushups to declinated pushups. However, these numbers sort of change per person due to limb size differences and where the BW is situated on their frame.

It's been discussed on CF that you need a near BW military press to be close to doing a HSPU on paralletes. 85-90% of BW seems just about the consensus.

Last I checked I could do about 10 headstand to handstand pushups and 2 full ROM HSPU off the wall. This was awhile back. I always remembered being around a 5:1 ratio. In late 2007 when I could do 7 off the wall on parallettes, I could do more than I really wanted to if it was just to headstand. A few years before that I could get into double digits and doing just to headstand was like doing shoulder tappers/wall runs. I don't remember exactly how many I could do 6 years ago though they were ridiculously easy.

I currently have no idea what I can do a military or shoulder/overhead press with. Last summer it was around 80-85%. Right now it is around 90% maybe. In late 2007 I could do BW ( the same time I could do 7 off the wall on parallettes ). I never did a heavy shoulder press before then even in my years of weightlifting ( I don't know why but we didn't ).

On another note, Kelly Moore, probably one of the strongest CF females out there can BW Shoulder press and I have seen a video where she did 5 HSPU full ROM on stools. There is another where she did 11 sets of 3. Gillian ( can also do BW OHP but no idea on HSPU ) or Eva might be in her league as well and Eva is known to be able to do a pullover from stand on rings for what's that is worth.

I know Jim of Beastskills could do a 205lb OHP@ a BW of 170 and managed to do 15 HSPU on rings with legs on straps. Danny S of CF Petaluma nearly did that and can do a BW press if not more. Steve Low is another who was close to doing the 15 HSPU on rings CF challenge and can probably BW+ OHP.

As to training the overhead press and the push press and push jerk, I substitute most of my OHP for HSPU and train the push press and push jerk seperately with no problems in stabilizing the weight. However, it's actually bench press that taxes me in stabilizing the weight for some reason compared to OHP.

[Coach Sommer]

you will be able to military press AT LEAST your bodyweight; depending on how far through the HSPU variations you have progressed.

In this instance, the greatest degree of overhead pressing strength will clearly be developed by the more challenging HSPU variations such as free standing or Bulgarian HSPUs on the Xtreme Rings. Very advanced athletes may also choose to use a MPPr variation such as a Bower on the XR for truly outstanding strength increases. If you are currently working less advanced variations, your available strength to transfer to weight training will of course be much less.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Grissim Connery]

On that note i'll further that overhead pressing is more useful to a functional application of force then by a HSPU( or HeSPUs) because of exercises such as the push press and jerk press. To clarify, those movements teach the body to use the body more efficiently overall rather then in a strict setting.

this all depends on what your final goal is. i do bjj and submission grappling, and the ability to balance well on one's hands is very beneficial. the benefits of handstand work are much greater than barbell pressing work for my own development. thus the concept of what's more functional is really dependent upon what your goals are. obviously barbell pressing is a very functional exercise if your focus is shotput or olympic lifting. although i do have to attempt to control the external weight of the person with whom i am rolling, his movements may be erratic and unpredictable at times. the more fluid approach is to move my own body with a conscious knowledge of where his body is relative to mine. thus the goal is my own body control. gymnastics has helped me more with this than any weightlifting.

[mario702]

I feel a great difference between these two exercises.They really are different as apples and oranges! Not in concern of the shoulder strength, there I agree that with beeing able to do the HSPU you can perform BW OHP at least. But in concern of the rest of the body, exspecially the forces for back and core are extremely different: OHP stresses both much more than HSPU. For this reason it is possible to do HSPUs before mastering the BW OHP.

Mario

[cjg]

Long time reader, first time poster- I'd just like to say that the material here has been absolutely amazing.

I'd reason that because of lifting overhead, and the subsequent change in the center of gravity(COG), the body is significantly more taxed to maintain stability then while doing inverted HSPU's.

I'm not sure if the change of gravity would make the MP that much harder to accomplish. The center of gravity may change dramatically, and higher, but we are more stable on our feet than on our hands. Without considerable experience in the freestanding handstand, a press, even a military press, will be less difficult to accomplish. I don't know your background, but with the elbows forward and the body slightly in front of the bar in the locked position, shoulders back, stomach pulled to the spine, bar behind the ears, I feel incredibly stable in the military press in a way I cannot achieve with a HeadSPU, let alone a full HSPU. (Just for reference, I can do a BW Press and not a full HSPU)

In terms of taxing the body and stability, the military press can also be modified in certain ways to prime the muscles that are difficult in a HSPU, allowing for 'easier' lifts. I can lift 10 pounds more by pressing the bar shortly following a clean than taking it off the rack, for instance. Also, with a slighly wider stance, you can engage your legs and your torso in the stabilization of the bar. Perhaps there is an equivalent for the HSPU, but I'm not aware of it.

Theoretically, I suppose the MP would be harder than the HSPU if an athlete were in the ideal position for both movements. If strength were the only factor and not balance, one could likely hold a handstand longer than a strict press position because the spinal erectors and legs must support the weight of the body as well as the bar where the HSPU only has to deal with the body. I do not have vast experience with this, but I've never met somebody who could complete a HSPU and not a MP that did not have some kind of technical deficiency in the MP.

[Cody Clark]

So that means if I can get to where I can do 1 Ring Handstand Pushup I will be able to Military Press my Bodyweight. Or should I being able to do reps in Ring Handstand Puhups before I can press bodyweight. I really can't I belive because they are two very different things one your upside down so you can get more upper body strength in to it. One you have to sptablize both yourself and the bar so you will not get bodyweight over your head without pracitcing the military press. THis is what I thnk because I would like to be able to do ring HSPU and without touching a barbell press bodyweight overhead. But I just can't seeit maybe some beast can Tell us his experiance on it besides I'm pretty sure Beastskills guy does overhead presses in his regime I think if Im wrong I'm sorry. Could someone please explain to me how just doning XR HSPU will make you MP bodyweight. Thanks

[Coach Sommer]

so you will not get bodyweight over your head without pracitcing the military press.

I did.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Neal Winkler]

so you will not get bodyweight over your head without pracitcing the military press.

I did.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I will.

[Razz]

Maybe I could... I should try

[Cody Clark]

But that doesen't make sense to me are you saying that the very first time you grabbed the barbell you got bodyweight overhead. Don't get me wrong I'm not calling you a liar you probably did but I just can't see it. I could see however you getting a good number then once you got you rform perfect then you got bodyweight overhead. Could please tell me how you did it did you have to clean before press or were you leaning or strict. Not trying to disprove you I love your stuff but I've always belived if you want to be storng in something you have to do htat thing. ANy feedback on how you did the military press will be great.

PS. do you know how well your students do with overhead presses that would help alot to see if it is true

[Coach Sommer]

I understand that no disrespect is intended. Many people who are not personally familiar with gymnastics are shocked by the degree of strength which Gymnastic Strength Training™ produces. Perhaps Jeff or Slizzardman would be willing to share some of their impressions of my athletes at the last GB Seminar.

It was a seated free weight military press. It was no issue for me; and I was not notably strong compared to some of my other team mates. Perhaps it will be helpful for you to understand that gymnasts have extraordinarily strong shoulder girdles.

I literally have no idea what my athletes could military press. This element is not part of their conditioning. I myself only began using it after I retired from collegiate gymnastics.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Cody Clark]

Really do you believe though that it was just the handstand pushups that does it or all the other ring work like Iron Cross and Maltese that helps alot. Do you think it would've made a difference if it wasn't a seated press but standing again not saying you couldn't. Just heasrd that standing is a little harder than seated although probably not that much I was thinking about the different angles I always thought upside down you could get more shoulder power behind but a press you usually have to get it up before you can press. Oh well guess I will just have to find out for myself. THank you Coach Sommer

one more thing do you think one needs to be able the advance HSPU's for reps or will just being able to do one will do the trick.

Thanks

[Joshua Naterman]

I understand that no disrespect is intended. Many people who are not personally familiar with gymnastics are shocked by the degree of strength which Gymnastic Strength Training™ produces. Perhaps Jeff or Slizzardman would be willing to share some of their impressions of my athletes at the last GB Seminar.

It was a seated free weight military press. It was no issue for me; and I was not notably strong compared to some of my other team mates. Perhaps it will be helpful for you to understand that gymnasts have extraordinarily strong shoulder girdles.

I literally have no idea what my athletes could military press. This element is not part of their conditioning. I myself only began using it after I retired from collegiate gymnastics.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

You know, as far as the athletes at the seminar, your guys are nuts. I have no idea what Dillon's overhead pressing is like, but I've personally seen him perform a complete reverse muscle up from an inverted hang through the bodyweight curl and straight up to handstand like it wasn't that big of a deal. He hadn't done that in quite a while apparently, but it wasn't that big a deal. THEN he lowered halfway down and started doing curls. I think he only did 7 or 8 when he just hopped down. That was with his feet on the inside of the straps for some stability and NO self spotting OR assistance from anyone else. It was quite amazing.

Jeff... is huge and strong. I mean, he busted out 12 or 13 full ROM, NO STRAP XR HSPU for fun. That was just amazing to watch. These guys don't do any overhead pressing that I'm aware of.

I've seen them do the Bowers, or 90 degree push ups as some call them. These guys are veritable beasts, and to think that they won't lift well above average for their weight class is absurd. It is also a bit silly to think that the strength you gain from one activity won't translate over into a different one. When you train your body to become strong as a unit and not as individual muscles, your strength transfers to a large degree in many areas of athletics. That is why ex-gymnasts tend to be very successful everywhere from bodybuilding to wrestling and track and field. They build strong bodies that are used to working as a single unit and that kind of strength transfers well not only to the weight room but also to the athletic field. In case you aren't aware, the NFL is moving away from the weight room and focusing more on body weight work like altitude drops and plyometric drills. Weights are a good tool for many things, but by themselves they are not the perfect tool OR the greatest thing for athletic performance. They are simply a useful tool. The same can be said for pure strength work with body weight. Gymnasts do a LOT more than just strength training! They do a lot of plyometrics, explosive exercises, altitude drops and endurance work in addition to the maximal strength work, AND they do these all in many different planes of motion. They are literally training their bodies do do just about everything a human body is capable of in just about every direction. It should not be surprising that they are the single most complete athletes on the planet. That doesn't make them the best at every single thing, but it makes them very, very good at pretty much everything. This is a pretty well agreed upon fact in the athletic world.

Even with me, personally, I haven't done any overhead pressing in years and at 220-230 lbs I can lift 200 for sure. It is absolutely true that these guys would probably get even heavier lifts if they practiced overhead lifting once a week or something, but there's no need for that because it's not part of their sport.

The two are definitely very different, and are equally challenging in different ways. It is hard to stabilize the spine in overhead pressing, and that's what holds most people back. For HSPU, it really is hard to hold your position when you're at the bottom and inverted. It's hard on the wrists and the shoulders. They really are quite different, but both build very high levels of shoulder strength.

Cody, it sounds to me like you have a very incomplete understanding of how the body super-compensates and becomes stronger. I am also SURE that you have no concept of how hard, how much pure strength it takes to move a straight body from the bottom of a planche push up into a handstand. That's just insane. If you do the math, the forces are quite incredible, and much higher than just bodyweight at points. I hope that doesn't come across as an insult, because it's not. I really didn't know either, and as I have not achieved that level of development it is fair to say that I still do not KNOW. I have SEEN it, and I am well aware of my inability to press from a tuck planche into a handstand with straight arms, and possibly not even with bent arms, yet I can bench well over 300 lbs and push press my body weight or slightly more.

I'm not making one out to be superior, but I hope I am doing a good job of pointing out that the strength involved is very, very different, and at certain moments in the movements the forces are much higher with the more advanced bodyweight stuff because of the low leverage involved. With overhead lifting, you are forced into using the best possible leverage. Anything less would make you fall over and/or rip your shoulders out. That is the nature of external loads. Heavy external loads can ONLY be lifted in mechanically advantageous positions, which limits their carryover to low-leverage positions. That's why the two are simply very, very different and hard or impossible to directly compare.

[Razz]

That's some ridiculous stories :shock: Just remembered that I could do 7 reps with 55lb dumbell shoulder press without ever practicing it on a day where I was already exhausted.. at bw 145 lbs

[Joshua Naterman]

The best I have ever seen at 145 lbs was 120lbsx10 reps, and it looked easy. One of my classmates in Gunner's Mate school who is now in SWCC did that. Unbelievable, really. He wasn't all that big!

[Jay Guindon]

I thought someone once told me that in a full ROM HSPU you are actually shy of your bodyweight due to some ofthe weight in your arms not actually being lifted during the movement. He seemed to be under the impression if you could do a full ROM HSPU with an extra 10-15lbs then there was no doubt you could shoulder press your bodyweight. Who know if this true but it might make sense that the weight of the hands and forearms aren't adding weight to the movement so you're not truly at bodyweight even in full ROM HSPU. I would imagine however that anyone who can do full ROM HSPU could get very close to bodyweight shoulder press and if they do other gymnastic strength movements would definitely get a BW shoulder press or more.

[Jay Guindon]

http://leehayward.com/blog/2009/12/how- ... -push-ups/

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/weigh ... 26290.html

These guys think handstand pushups are better for developing pressing strength than pressing itself. Who knows though if they have any clue.

[Joshua Naterman]

I thought someone once told me that in a full ROM HSPU you are actually shy of your bodyweight due to some ofthe weight in your arms not actually being lifted during the movement. He seemed to be under the impression if you could do a full ROM HSPU with an extra 10-15lbs then there was no doubt you could shoulder press your bodyweight. Who know if this true but it might make sense that the weight of the hands and forearms aren't adding weight to the movement so you're not truly at bodyweight even in full ROM HSPU. I would imagine however that anyone who can do full ROM HSPU could get very close to bodyweight shoulder press and if they do other gymnastic strength movements would definitely get a BW shoulder press or more.

There is definitely something to that, but you have to take into account the body movement near the bottom of the HSPU. Your body angle changes off of vertical, which WILL increase the forces acting on the shoulders. That's ALSO just concerning HSPU on something stable like PB or cinder blocks. When you're talking about the rings it's a whole different story, just like dips. I can do 10 dips with 100 lbs on PB fairly easily, and 6 dips with 70 lbs is a supreme challenge on the rings and will not be perfect.

[Joshua Naterman]

http://leehayward.com/blog/2009/12/how-to-perform-handstand-push-ups/

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/weigh ... 26290.html

These guys think handstand pushups are better for developing pressing strength than pressing itself. Who knows though if they have any clue.

I don't know if "better" is the best word, but it should be noted that one of the strongest men on the planet in any time period, Paul Anderson, was well known for his ability to do many freestanding HSPU on canes, and attributed a lot of his pressing strength to that practice. It is much harder to stabilize your body AT THE SHOULDER JOINT during the HSPU than it is during overhead pressing. It is much harder to stabilize the spine during overhead pressing, at least when standing. I don't know about sitting.

HSPU will make you a shoulder beast, there is just no way around that.

[Jay Guindon]

There is definitely something to that, but you have to take into account the body movement near the bottom of the HSPU. Your body angle changes off of vertical, which WILL increase the forces acting on the shoulders. That's ALSO just concerning HSPU on something stable like PB or cinder blocks. When you're talking about the rings it's a whole different story, just like dips. I can do 10 dips with 100 lbs on PB fairly easily, and 6 dips with 70 lbs is a supreme challenge on the rings and will not be perfect.

If what you have noticed for dips is the same for handstand pushups then doing full ROM HSPUs in rings should absolutely build enough strength to press bodyweight overhead.

[Sternford]

You know, as far as the athletes at the seminar, your guys are nuts. I have no idea what Dillon's overhead pressing is like, but I've personally seen him perform a complete reverse muscle up from an inverted hang through the bodyweight curl and straight up to handstand like it wasn't that big of a deal. He hadn't done that in quite a while apparently, but it wasn't that big a deal. THEN he lowered halfway down and started doing curls. I think he only did 7 or 8 when he just hopped down. That was with his feet on the inside of the straps for some stability and NO self spotting OR assistance from anyone else. It was quite amazing.

I would love to see a video of this reverse muscle up. Maybe Coach might put such a thing up some day?