Chinese Men Include 30 Min Wall HS in Training

[Coach Sommer]

mIY1mukzUog

This video clip shows a variety of interview segments, equipment training and some basic physical training. Included are out takes of the Chinese men performing a Wall HS for 30 minutes. Later we also see Chen Yibing performing his Wall HS after a running workout on the treadmill.

Years ago (probably 1986), one of my athletes spent part of the summer training in China. He returned and told us about a young Chinese gymnast he saw have to do a 45 minute Wall HS for some training transgression. None of us believed him at the time. Much later I was to learn that long duration Wall HS were a staple of the Chinese program then and continue to be so to this day.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Gregor]

impressive

[Razz]

Damn.. I was thinking if I got a 10 min XR strap handstand that'd be cool.. but 30-45 minutes wall handstands holy moly.. :shock:

One of my friends x-coach went to the japanese kokushikan team and he told similar stories from there regarding wall handstands. There were also stories of grown ups jumping on the spot until crying in pain.. hardcore :twisted:

KTbbtJHBtts

[Felipe]

coach, you are so fast at searching gymnastics video news (I was trying to post the same video when you did it!). What's your secret?

BTW is this type of training actually useful?

I remember a study on long-distance swimmers and endurance improvement, which explained that a 10.000m training session had the same benefit of a 20.000m one.

So I think that a 10 min HS, maybe with greater quality, can be more useful.

[Mats Trane]

Interesting video!

I was thinking the the same as Felipe, whats the benefit of doing 30 minute wall hs compared to 10 minute one?

[Blairbob]

I think if my boys ever wanted to do rhythmic gymnastics, especially men's rhythmic gymnastics; I might punish them in conditioning too. It even had stunting which reminds me more of sports acro meets rhythmic.

Joking, beside...I think a lot of these austere training modalities are merely to build up mental fortitude. Very common in the harder styles of kung fu or karate in those regions or in other conditioning programs throughout the world (holding a pushup position for x amount of minutes, leg lift hold, standing with arms out, etc)

The quality of those HS were not that great. However, this is what it apparently looked like toward the end and they are not being done to work on their basic mastery of a HS (since they should have already mastered it to some degree as an elite gymnast). I wonder then, if it done to focus on the joint strength combined with training mental fortitude.

[Aviv Lugtenaar]

If you can do a 10 min handstand would it maybe be better to then add wheight to yourself instead making the duration longer?

[gymrob]

That is really impressive! But I have to ask...what use is low intensity long duration run's on a treadmill (assuming that's what he was doing) when you are engaging in a primarily anaerobic strength/power sport? Very long duration run's will surely only harm your speed as well as having many other effects such as promoting the conversion of transitional muscle fiber into slow twitch-which is not desirable for a gymnast when they have to do all their powerful tumbling etc.

Other than that those handstands are very impressive!

Thanks for posting Coach.

[Ryan Libke]

To comment further on Blairbob's comparison with the practice of Asian martial arts, the training depicted in the video could be said to be akin to what is called shugyo in Japanese, which means "austere training." Not being as familiar with Chinese martial arts, I am not sure what the equivalent would be, but there is probably a cultural equivalent. Shugyo is associated with many of the traditional martial arts such as kenjutsu and jujutsu, but has been maintained in the practice of modern arts such as judo and kendo, and incorporated into some forms of karate-do. As reflected above, the seemingly severe and punishing training is more tuned to training mental fortitude and spirit, rather than achieving a certain specified performance result. It would not surprise me that the same type of approach is followed with their gymanstics training in China. Almost like the "Way" of gymnastics. The austere training produces gymnasts who can not only perform, but who also have the toughness to meet adversity well.

[Felipe]

OTjn11DmkP8

good solid warming up HS

[Coach Sommer]

It would not surprise me that the same type of approach is followed with their gymanstics training in China. Almost like the "Way" of gymnastics. The austere training produces gymnasts who can not only perform, but who also have the toughness to meet adversity well.

I do not believe that this is the case. The Chinese training program is already extremely challenging (physically and mentally) and certainly does not need the addition of extended duration Wall HS to build character. The Chinese are nothing if not particular. If an element is included in their training it is for a specific physiological adaptation.

The question then becomes for what specific physical reason is the element included? It is obviously not for training bodyline. The duration is too long for maximal strength. From my conversations with those involved, my understanding is that they are using it for shoulder girdle, elbow and wrist pre-hab. Is this however the most efficient approach? Are there other alternatives?

Years past, I also employed Wall HS for time; although rarely above 10-12 minutes. I found the practical results from this effort to be marginal at best. However perhaps 30 minutes is the magic number to see excellent results with stationary Wall HS. I have however found that 10 continuous minutes of HS Wall Runs gives excellent results in terms of support strength gains, improvements in press HS strength (bordering on incredible for those athletes who prior to exposure to Wall Runs had weak press HS) and overall wrist health.

Including Wall Runs into the training program one to two times per week seems to be sufficient.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Ryan Libke]

That what I get for speculating. I would note, too, that "austere" training, or severe training just to build character, risks unnecessary acute injury in the training process, as well as chronic injury from overuse. I have met some older martial artists who are tough as nails, but can hardly walk, or meaningfully participate in the art, as compared to a person of the same age who did not train severely.

From a layman's perspective, the Chinese gymnasts seem to do well in competition. Is this a matter of succeeding in spite of excessive training? Or is it beneficial to their competitive success, at least in the years that the athlete will compete? Are there long term consequences to that type of training?

[Coach Sommer]

Typically the Chinese are MUCH better at using restorative measures on a regular basis than all of the other top programs in the world. Many of their measures are not meant to be relaxing but are rather vigorous. In fact some of the applications, like their version of deep tissue massage, are nearly violent.

Most Americans on the other hand tend to do the bare minimum restorative practices possible, until an issue crops up and then they run hither and thither looking for the newest cure. I tend to think of this as the physical pre-hab approach for those with training ADHD.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Blairbob]

Interesting Coach.

Would you say that the Russians and other countries of the Eastern Blok are well versed and apply their recovery methods to almost a close second place to the Chinese? How about the Japanese? I would think that the Russians and some of the Eastern Blok would, but I don't know how things run in the elite world.

I did have a chance in 07 to attend Bill Sands lecture on recovery management and a tool/test he used for accessing if there was enough or how much recovery was being used. I thought it was very interesting.

But I have seen, that here in the states, not a lot of prevention/pre-hab is done until an injury occurs and then it's just send them to the PT's, which may or may be useful and know anything about gymnasts needs.

[John Sapinoso]

Could this possibly be a recovery method rather than a strengthening exercise?

an ex coach of mine, who trained under the chinese system, also implemented this practice.

I personally cannot fathom the strength application of a 30 minute handstand, but perhaps placed at the end of a workout this could be a method of sustaining a high level of blood flow to the upper body muscles. Just a theory, but the 30 minute marker is consistent with the amount of time it takes to absorb nutrients into the blood stream.

Am I way off base. . . Can anyone shed some light on this?

[Joshua Naterman]

Static contractions actually cut off bloodflow within the muscles.

The most likely explanation is that, due to the endurance nature of the work, 30 minute handstands strengthen the weaker type 1 fibers to the point where they can handle the body's weight in a handstand for extended periods. These fibers are present to some extent in all muscles, but this practice would eventually improve the endurance capabilities of the shoulder girdle, both large muscles and smaller stabilizers, to the point where it would be very difficult to injure the shoulder through training. Falls and other non-technique related accidents could still harm the shoulder, but if you can hold your body for 30 minutes with extended shoulders in a handstand then your shoulders really are nearly injury-proof. Even the weakest motor groups would be strong enough to handle extreme stress.

[Wangtang6911]

I have spoken with many Chinese coaches here in Shanghai, and it is a general rule for them that handstands are the most important part of gymnastics! While none of the older gymnasts in the shanghai gym do the 30 min handstands everyday, it is a part of the training on the national team.

That being said, the younger kids, 7 to 12 years old, are constantly doing handstands and wall handstands. In Shanghai, it seems that handstands are a way to punish the kids. On one instance, I have seen kids get in trouble and had to hold a handstand for the entire 3 hours I was in the gym! :shock: I tell the coaches back in the US about this and noone believes me, but I swear it is true. 1 hour handstands are not uncommon for these younger kids as well.

I have also seen younger kids have to stop training due to the fact that they could not develop a good handstand. It is a bit harsh, but Chinese gymnastics is messed up like that sometimes!!

[Felipe]

Wangtang6911, your information are so good! Coach wrote that national member are required to do a 2xBodyweight squat. Do you know anything on legs training?

[David Picó García]

They also include some planches on rings with weight attached to the waist :shock:

Some rope climbing with weight attached and squats (don't know if it is doble bodyweight)

N5nkfJvBWK8

[Razz]

very cool vid please do post more if you find them

[Guest Ido Portal]

Maybe somebody who speaks mandarin can explain why does this gymnast is using a 'sweat suit' like wrestlers do when they are trying to 'make weight' for competition??

5il6UUdoRfM

Ido.

[Felipe]

Wow...rings with vaist weight is devastating, imagine doing an entire routine with it! It would benefit your performance greatly training it, your actual exercise at world contests would become an easier variation (without 5kg and bodyweight of 50kg it would be 10% better...I'm speculating :wink: )

[Wangtang6911]

Wow...rings with vaist weight is devastating, imagine doing an entire routine with it! It would benefit your performance greatly training it, your actual exercise at world contests would become an easier variation (without 5kg and bodyweight of 50kg it would be 10% better...I'm speculating :wink: )

I started training my strength sequences and basic swings with a weight belt on. It might seem like it should be 10% harder with with something like 5 kg's strapped on, but you feel like you're body is twice as heavy!! The current rings Champion would do his strength sequences with a weight belt, ankle weights, and a weight vest strapped on!! That kid is nuts though. Bench press is part of strength training here in Shanghai and Yan Mingyong could bench 130Kg for 3 reps at 50Kg's!!!

As for leg strength, I never see anyone in the gym training that aside from small 4 inch squats with someone sitting on the persons shoulders.

[Razz]

Yan Mingyong could bench 130Kg for 3 reps at 50Kg's!!!

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

When they're benching is it with flat back or is it shoulderblades pulled together and arched back?

[Joshua Naterman]

Good lord, who cares That's some monstrous strength for someone his size. I feel much more validated in my opinion that a marriage of weights and gymnastics training is much more effective than gymnastics alone or weights alone