Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Gymnastic Program

[Maya]

First off I need to thank Coach Sommer for a awesome book (and many more to come). I've always had an interest and admiration for gymnast but never had an idea where to start. Your book is perfect for that, a great introduction into the world of gymnastics and makes me have even more respect for the abilities and strengths of the gymnasts i see on tv. I can't wait for the next volumes.

But anyways, as it is now i train brazilian jiu jitsu (bjj) 4 days a week (MWFSat) and train my program for gym. strength 4 days (MoTuThFri). My goals are of course to become stronger for bjj but also to get better at the fundamental static positions. Like i said i've always had in interest in gymnastics so being able to perform the basic techniques is just a big a goal for me as gaining strength. My program is as follows:

My questions are:

1. I see that a lot of other people's programs include a lot more work. Am i doing enough? I'm on my 5th week so far and have made amazing progress. Like i said before though i really enjoy these types of exercises so if i'd have better results w/ more work i wouldn't want to be missing out.

2. Is one day enough for legs? At Bjj we do exercises before class as a "warmup". This includes bodyweight squats, lunges, walking w/ a person on your back, burpees, etc. So I'm not exactly being stagnant for the rest of the week, but i'm still only having one day of actual leg work.

3. The exercises I've picked so far has been working well. But for the more experienced members are there other excercises you'd suggest instead of the ones i've selected? Or maybe different variations (i do have the book so feel free to name any from there). I've posted my current strength levels at the end for reference to what exercises i'll be capable of. Thanks

Thanks for any input / help i appreciate it.

ps. For those interested i'll post my progress so far. (Day 1 - end of week 5 now)

Back level tuck - back lever flat tuck for 10 second holds

frog stand - increased frog stand to 10 seconds (straight arms) and can do planche tuck for 2-4 seconds

front lever tuck - front lever flat tuck 10 second hold (these are A LOT easier since starting, i'm very happy)

handstands against wall - free standing for 6-10 seconds

L sit w/ push up bars - on rings for 10 second holds, legs above hands

[Felipe]

1) Some people think that more is better. This is not true in training. If you are going well doing less, why doing more?

2) No, train legs every time you work your arms.

3) You should change variation after being able to perform 8-10 reps of the old exercise and 3 of the new one.

[Maya]

Thanks for the help. After adapting more to the gymnastic workouts i've added the following barbell lifts.

Mon: back squats

Tue: clean and press

Thurs: Snatch

Fri: Deadlift

After doing the original program for a couple weeks i definitely felt like the leg work was inadequate. But for your final point, should i switch to a more difficult variation after an 8 rep max? Or after doing 8 reps for my 3 sets? (Example: progress from 3x3 pullups to 3x8)?

Thanks again for the advice.

[Guest cccp21]

1) Some people think that more is better. This is not true in training. If you are going well doing less, why doing more?

2) No, train legs every time you work your arms.

3) You should change variation after being able to perform 8-10 reps of the old exercise and 3 of the new one.

*************Just a question. Would training EVERYDAY with very low volume be a viable approach?

Brandon Green

[Ryan Libke]

I think it is good to add some barbell lifts, but I think doing a big lift everyday is going to be a bit rough, especially if you are training BJJ 4X a week, and training heavy with the compound lifts. Its possible of course, but the lifts should probably be very low rep, low sets. It depends on how much stand-up work they do at the BJJ school, too. If there is more judo or wrestling type training integrated with the matwork, it may be difficult to do weight training 4 days a week.

That being said, I think it is great to train BJJ along with the Gymnastic Strength Training™. Wrestlers have long implemented bodyweight training and gymnastics to compliment their sport. I have not done BJJ or Judo since the BTGB program became available, but I think I would have enjoyed doing both. Good luck with your training.

Which school are you training with?

[Joshua Naterman]

1) Some people think that more is better. This is not true in training. If you are going well doing less, why doing more?

2) No, train legs every time you work your arms.

3) You should change variation after being able to perform 8-10 reps of the old exercise and 3 of the new one.

*************Just a question. Would training EVERYDAY with very low volume be a viable approach?

Brandon Green

If you're talking about the same intensity each day, then no. You will be tearing down the repairs your body makes as fast as it makes them or faster, which leaves no time for growth. Trust me, I have tried this. There are short term gains that stop and start reversing within a month. You NEED rest days. You can certainly train every day if you're lifting hard one day, doing super light stuff the next with a little jog, next day some sprints and light band work, etc., but that's using the concept of active rest, where you use the activities you are doing to specifically promote healing. You can't do the same training every day at a low volume and progress. It will lead to stagnation very, very quickly and you will be at a huge risk for injury due to lack of motivation and awareness, not to mention physical fatigue.

If you throw drugs into the mix then you can get away with a little more, but that's still the most stupid way to use them, and I don't advocate that period.

[Guest cccp21]

1) Some people think that more is better. This is not true in training. If you are going well doing less, why doing more?

2) No, train legs every time you work your arms.

3) You should change variation after being able to perform 8-10 reps of the old exercise and 3 of the new one.

*************Just a question. Would training EVERYDAY with very low volume be a viable approach?

Brandon Green

If you're talking about the same intensity each day, then no. You will be tearing down the repairs your body makes as fast as it makes them or faster, which leaves no time for growth. Trust me, I have tried this. There are short term gains that stop and start reversing within a month. You NEED rest days. You can certainly train every day if you're lifting hard one day, doing super light stuff the next with a little jog, next day some sprints and light band work, etc., but that's using the concept of active rest, where you use the activities you are doing to specifically promote healing. You can't do the same training every day at a low volume and progress. It will lead to stagnation very, very quickly and you will be at a huge risk for injury due to lack of motivation and awareness, not to mention physical fatigue.

If you throw drugs into the mix then you can get away with a little more, but that's still the most stupid way to use them, and I don't advocate that period.

************* Here's what i mean-day 1 ring dips(normal),day2 rto dips,day3 bulgarian,day4 wide grip on bars etc.

at the same time day1 8-12 reps,day 2 1-3reps,day 3 20-30reps,day4 4-6 reps with 1-5 sets depending on day and then take 2-3 days off after and repeat. If any what type of cycle would this be appropiate for.

Brandon Green

[Joshua Naterman]

It depends. If you are doing the sets and reps based on those being the ranges you MUST work in, for example, doing sets of 5 reps because you are a) using a variation, or b) using so much weight that you cannot do more than that, then yes, that could work. I have done such things, and I honestly am not 100% sure yet whether it is best to structure the sets as you have outlined them or to break up the work with rest in between. With my body, personally, and everyone I have trained so far, I have seen better results with rest between workouts, but the general structure is the same. I have a cycle I go through, currently a 7 day cycle for convenience. My first workout is in the 3 rep range, my second workout is in the 20-30+ range, and my third workout is in the 6-14 rep range, depending on the exercise. I have a day of rest in between each workout, with two days between my third workout of the week and my first of the next. T,TH,Sat, for me. It works very well. Once every 3 or 4 weeks I take 3-7 extra days "off", where I do everything very light, eat a lot, and do sprints and whatnot. Active rest. When I go back I am stronger than I was. I do see improvements each week as well for the most part, but the big jumps come after the rest. Structuring the way you are makes a much greater demand on the body, and I think that while it will work, it is does not take advantage to the healing cycles of the body to the same degree as the setup I am currently using. If you use hormonal drugs, I do believe what you suggest would work better than what I am doing would work with the same drugs.

[Guest cccp21]

It depends. If you are doing the sets and reps based on those being the ranges you MUST work in, for example, doing sets of 5 reps because you are a) using a variation, or b) using so much weight that you cannot do more than that, then yes, that could work. I have done such things, and I honestly am not 100% sure yet whether it is best to structure the sets as you have outlined them or to break up the work with rest in between. With my body, personally, and everyone I have trained so far, I have seen better results with rest between workouts, but the general structure is the same. I have a cycle I go through, currently a 7 day cycle for convenience. My first workout is in the 3 rep range, my second workout is in the 20-30+ range, and my third workout is in the 6-14 rep range, depending on the exercise. I have a day of rest in between each workout, with two days between my third workout of the week and my first of the next. T,TH,Sat, for me. It works very well. Once every 3 or 4 weeks I take 3-7 extra days "off", where I do everything very light, eat a lot, and do sprints and whatnot. Active rest. When I go back I am stronger than I was. I do see improvements each week as well for the most part, but the big jumps come after the rest. Structuring the way you are makes a much greater demand on the body, and I think that while it will work, it is does not take advantage to the healing cycles of the body to the same degree as the setup I am currently using. If you use hormonal drugs, I do believe what you suggest would work better than what I am doing would work with the same drugs.

********** Foam roll,rhaponticum,moomiyo,eleutheroccocus,shisandra,alpha gpc and swimming.

Brandon Green

[Joshua Naterman]

I'm going to assume that's a list of what you take.

Let me be specific. If you are not using anabolic steroids, you are almost certainly going to have better results with rest between workouts, as opposed to 3 on and 3 or 4 off training. I do find that occasional single weeks of several hard days in a row followed by a long rest period(4-7 days) have worked well, but when done back to back I experience a backslide in abilities, and for that reason I have abandoned that approach as a general structure. I believe, more than anything else, that the changing up of the routine followed by a short de-training period are what cause the gains. You only need to de-train once every 6-8 weeks or so, de-training more often won't get you what you want.

[Felipe]

Thanks for the help. After adapting more to the gymnastic workouts i've added the following barbell lifts.

Mon: back squats

Tue: clean and press

Thurs: Snatch

Fri: Deadlift

After doing the original program for a couple weeks i definitely felt like the leg work was inadequate. But for your final point, should i switch to a more difficult variation after an 8 rep max? Or after doing 8 reps for my 3 sets? (Example: progress from 3x3 pullups to 3x8)?

Thanks again for the advice.

Progressing until a solid 3x8 is better, the goal is to have a good quality movement and the strength of doing it.

Howerever it isn't required: you can advance on the next variation when you feel you have the strength to do it.

Example: for a well, complete developed bodybuilder doing a Back lever on the first session ever of ring training is definitely possible.

He lacks the coordination (and joint preparation) to do it but not the strength.

He should progress as fast as possible, since his only limit is the position itself (and again the very important joint preparation)

[Joshua Naterman]

Definitely a good idea to move on as soon as possible. I personally think that on certain exercises, like pullups, it is better to build up close to or to 3-5x8 before moving on, because you're going to need a surplus of strength in whatever position or weight in order to be able to do the next step up the ladder with good form. Alternatively, you could wait until you are doing 3x3 with 10-15 lbs around your waist before you move up to the next progression, which would be a way to focus more on maximal strength, and while personally I prefer a mixed approach either one will work. In fact, you may find that switching between them helps you a lot. As Felipe said, the one requirement you MUST meet for moving to the next step in any progression is the ability to perform the new movement with good form.

Felipe: I laughed myself silly on Thursday! My friend Andy is a new pro bodybuilder, he just got his natural pro card a month or two ago. Anyways, I had my rings set up on the pull-up bars and he tried to do a ring support and his hands were flying everywhere! He barely stayed up for 3 seconds It was really funny to see a big guy struggle to do such a simple thing

[heinrich]

Here's what Ido had to say about progressing to a next harder movement:

As a starting point, for some miometric skills with maximal strength development in mind, it can be a work density of from 10 reps per 35 min up to 25 reps per 20 min. (10 sets of 1 rep with 3 min of rest up to 5 sets of 5 with 3 min of rest)

For example, for the Headstand push up and before broadening the range of motion into the full HSPU, I'd like to first achieve 5 sets of 5 reps with no more than 3 min of rest between sets with my trainees. When I will get that work density, I will go down to 10 sets of 1 rep of the full HSPU and build more density from there.

I laughed myself silly on Thursday! My friend Andy is a new pro bodybuilder, he just got his natural pro card a month or two ago. Anyways, I had my rings set up on the pull-up bars and he tried to do a ring support and his hands were flying everywhere! He barely stayed up for 3 seconds It was really funny to see a big guy struggle to do such a simple thing

LOL²

I guess if you had asked him to turn the rings out he would have killed himself

[Joshua Naterman]

"Clean up at the cable machine, clean up at the cables!"

[Guest cccp21]

I'm going to assume that's a list of what you take.

Let me be specific. If you are not using anabolic steroids, you are almost certainly going to have better results with rest between workouts, as opposed to 3 on and 3 or 4 off training. I do find that occasional single weeks of several hard days in a row followed by a long rest period(4-7 days) have worked well, but when done back to back I experience a backslide in abilities, and for that reason I have abandoned that approach as a general structure. I believe, more than anything else, that the changing up of the routine followed by a short de-training period are what cause the gains. You only need to de-train once every 6-8 weeks or so, de-training more often won't get you what you want.

*********It's a list of what i do for recovery. Plus Sharko or Charcot showers(however you pronounce it). I happen to agree with you btw. Even if using anabolics your still going to need off weeks and days anyway(i talked to a biochemist that supposedly worked at the Lenningrad Institute of Physical Culture and he told me that their steroid cycles were very short on the order of 2-4 weeks depending on individual,sport and level).

Brandon Green

[Joshua Naterman]

Got it I figured it was something like that. Yea, even with steroids you need off days, but doing consecutive work like 3 days on 2-3 days off that can actually work better if your nutrition and drugs are right. It's pretty crazy how much they increase the rate of protein synthesis!

[Felipe]

Felipe: I laughed myself silly on Thursday! My friend Andy is a new pro bodybuilder, he just got his natural pro card a month or two ago. Anyways, I had my rings set up on the pull-up bars and he tried to do a ring support and his hands were flying everywhere! He barely stayed up for 3 seconds It was really funny to see a big guy struggle to do such a simple thing

Ahahah, in fact I never seen anyone capable of doing something good on rings on the first day! Perhaps my bodybuilder example is not so good, they're the least coordinated sportmen ever. Isolation sucks.

[Joshua Naterman]

Definitely. My first day I was almost as bad It was just funny to watch

[Longshanks]

I actually just got some rings today and my attempts seemed to have my lass laughing her arse off at me trying them out! lol. Just tried some pseudo planche push-ups on them and MY GOD!

[mike.m]

1) Some people think that more is better. This is not true in training. If you are going well doing less, why doing more?

2) No, train legs every time you work your arms.

3) You should change variation after being able to perform 8-10 reps of the old exercise and 3 of the new one.

*************Just a question. Would training EVERYDAY with very low volume be a viable approach?

Brandon Green

If you're talking about the same intensity each day, then no. You will be tearing down the repairs your body makes as fast as it makes them or faster, which leaves no time for growth. Trust me, I have tried this. There are short term gains that stop and start reversing within a month. You NEED rest days. You can certainly train every day if you're lifting hard one day, doing super light stuff the next with a little jog, next day some sprints and light band work, etc., but that's using the concept of active rest, where you use the activities you are doing to specifically promote healing. You can't do the same training every day at a low volume and progress. It will lead to stagnation very, very quickly and you will be at a huge risk for injury due to lack of motivation and awareness, not to mention physical fatigue.

If you throw drugs into the mix then you can get away with a little more, but that's still the most stupid way to use them, and I don't advocate that period.

What do you think about pavel's gtg system ? He has you doing low reps 6 out of 7 days a week.

[taedoju]

hi there,im new here;) i tried pttp program and it is def. worth checking out, but using more than two exercises will leave you burn out if you got something that taxing like bjj.

Im gonna hijack this thread a little with my own questions;) i started doing gymnastic conditioning week ago exactly, my plan looks kinda similar but:

matt's workout x 3/4 /or even only 2 times a week depending on time:

planche progression 6sx10

lever progression 6sx10

pistols 7x2

hamstring curls on swiss ball 4x10

l sit 6sx10

handstand negatives 10x1

one arm pullup progression 7x2

question is, should i separete (spelling?) static work like planche prog. and lever prog ? i do not feel overworked but well i just started, i am kickboxer so my shoulders get workout very often.

Another question is, ive got competition comin in 5 days,i was thinking bout doing half of currently workload (time /reps) and working out only tuesday and monday/wensday( weekend competition),is it good idea? or shouldnt i workout at all ?