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Mouclier Victor

Pulling equivalent of HSPU

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Mouclier Victor

which pulling strenght movement would have the same difficulty as  full ROM handstand push ups ?

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Jon Douglas

Difficulty? Hard to say.

Generally we group a vertical pull with it. From pullups up tp rope climb laps.

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Francesco Pudda

The equivalent of handstand pushups are *surely* the pullups. This does not mean that the difficulty is the same, but the equivalent are those ones.

 

Remember that to switch between a pushing to the equivalent pulling exercise (and viceversa), you have to rotate the body along the transverse axis passing through the support point.

 

HSPU -> Pullups

Pushups -> Inverted rows

 

Etc, etc..

 

Generally, I have noted that the pushing equivalent is thougher that the pulling one, and the difference is even greater if performed on the rings instead of the floor/bar. In fact, during pushing movements you are in a support phase, while during pulling you are in a suspension phase, and the instability during supports plays a crucial role in the difficulty of the exercise.

Edited by Francesco Pudda
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Rebelos
Generally, I have noted that the pushing equivalent is thougher that the pulling one, and the difference is even greater if performed on the rings instead of the floor/bar. In fact, during pushing movements you are in a support phase, while during pulling you are in a suspension phase, and the instability during supports plays a crucial role in the difficulty of the exercise.

One way to think of it is like that. An other way is to think the "size" of the primary muscles that work in each move. In HSPU the shoulders mostly move the Humerus Bone, while on pull-ups the Lats move the Humerus Bone which they consists of a lot more muscle mass than the shoulders, which means greater force produced! That's why one is harder considering both exercises are done with the same resistance( your bodyweight duh!)

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Francesco Pudda

Oh yes, the size of muscle is crucial too :)

 

One exception are Dips Vs Inverted pullups, since the triceps involved in the first ones, are bigger than the biceps involved in the second one, making the dips easier than the inverted pullups

Edited by Francesco Pudda

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Mouclier Victor

thanks for the pertinent answers !

 

i think that assisted one arm pull ups (hand on forearmor wrist ) would have a very similar difficulty as handstand push ups. do you agree ?

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Léo Aïtoulha

The equivalent of Push-Up is Elevated Row.

The equivalent of Dip is Pull-Up.

The equivalent of HSPU (pushing phase of Reverse Muscle-Up) is Inverted Pull-Up (pulling phase of Reverse Muscle Up).

The equivalent of Hollow Back Press (90° Push-Up) is Inverted Pull Up to Bent Arm Front Lever.

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Francesco Pudda

 

The equivalent of Dip is Pull-Up.

The equivalent of HSPU (pushing phase of Reverse Muscle-Up) is Inverted Pull-Up (pulling phase of Reverse Muscle Up).

Sorry I don't agree. Dip motor pattern is completely different from pull-up.

 If we look the movement these are coupled:

 

Pushups <-> inverted rows

Hand stand pushups <-> pullups

Dip <-> Inverted pullups

 

 

i think that assisted one arm pull ups (hand on forearmor wrist ) would have a very similar difficulty as handstand push ups. do you agree ?

 

Very hard to say since they are equivalent movement, but one is pushing and one is pulling.

I can try to make a comparison according to steven low table:

Rings free handstand pushups to one arm chin up.

 

But really, you are stronger in what you train most, so you could feel the OAC "easier" because you trained for it since months, or vice versa

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Francesco Pudda

And what is that supposed to mean? XD

I can make a table as I think and post it here too  XD

 

Instead of posting an oversized image why don't you write your reasons?

Edited by Francesco Pudda
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Léo Aïtoulha

And what is that supposed to mean? XD

I can make a table as I think and post it here too XD

Instead of posting an oversized image why don't you write your reasons?

Pull-Up is not the pulling equivalent of Handstand Push-Up for a very simple reason : Pull-Up is far easier than Handstand Push-Up while the strength produced by the muscles when pulling is the same as the strength produced by the muscles when pushing.

The difficulty of a Push-Up is the same as the difficulty of an Elevated Row. There is no reason that pushing exercises should suddenly become far more difficult than pulling exercises while it was equivalent just before.

Pull-Up is the pulling equivalent of Dip. Both of them and most of their variations are covered in Foundation Two while Handstand Push-Up and its variations are covered in Foundation Three.

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Francesco Pudda

You cannot compare two different exercises in terms of absolute difficulty because you will get better in what you train the most, first, and because of the different involved muscolature, second.

 

You can "compare" two exercises to pair them for a workout, and for compare I mean find the anatomically opposed, which was what I meant with "equivalent".

I firmly believe in the simmetry of exercises and in what I said before

 

you have to rotate the body along the transverse axis passing through the support point.

 

So I am not saying that handstand pushups are the "equivalent" of pull ups because they are equals in terms of difficoulty, but because they are anotomically opposed and good to pair in a workout.

 

 

Anyway, you are contradicting yourself:

 

There is no reason that pushing exercises should suddenly become far more difficult than pulling exercises while it was equivalent just before.

 

According to this, your idea of equivalent is in terms of difficoulty but, you have coupled *inverted* rows with pushups. So you should couple front lever with planche, shouldn't you? Because it is the same type of exercise (pull/pull, push/push

) in the same plane of movement (horizontal/horizontal). But I don't think that they are equal in term of difficulty, do you?

 

Front lever and planche are, rightly, opposed but not because they have the same difficulty.

 

More over you are saying that pullups have the same difficulty of dips. Well this is pretty moot, since the size of the triceps greatly overcome the size of the biceps, in fact the average trained person will always be stronger at dips.

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Léo Aïtoulha

Foundation Series build up to a Front Lever and a Straddle Planche on floor/PB. These exercises are both considered as basics. According to Alessandro Mainente, Straddle planche is by far a skill that requires all body activation more than full planche. That's why I think that Full Planche on floor/PB (I'm not talking about Planche on rings) and Front Lever are close in terms of difficulty with appropriate training.
Pull-Up variations and Dip variations are both mainly covered in Foundation Two and have the same mastery template. Pull-Up variations and HSPU variations have the same mastery template too, but HSPU variations are covered in Foundation Three. If you don't have muscular imbalances, there is no reason to train Pull-Up and HSPU together.
Triceps are bigger than biceps, that's true. And the latissimus dorsi - which is the main muscle used with biceps during bent arm strength pulling work - is the biggest muscle in the upper body.

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Jon Douglas

HSPU are far and away easier than a bodyweight bicep curl to shoulderstand, even if your pulling is much stronger than pressing

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Alexander Egebak

Foundation Series build up to a Front Lever and a Straddle Planche on floor/PB. These exercises are both considered as basics. According to Alessandro Mainente, Straddle planche is by far a skill that requires all body activation more than full planche. That's why I think that Full Planche on floor/PB (I'm not talking about Planche on rings) and Front Lever are close in terms of difficulty with appropriate training.

 

 

I have to disagree about the planche/front lever comparison. They are rated differently by FIG, front lever utilizes a lot of bigger muscles in comparison to planche, and planche has a certain balance and activation element. All these points hints to front being easier than planche.

 

Perhaps, the bridge mobility elements will slow one down in the journey for front lever through foundation series, but surely front lever with perfect form can be developed outside this program.

 

Also, there is a huge difference to training adults and children. I expect to see a child gymnast's front lever way before his planche.

 

As for the straddle planche/planche comparison. There is a reason that a lot of guys get their straddle planche but really struggle with the full planche. It is very much harder than the straddle planche. Perhaps learning to hold a straddle planche is harder than learning a full planche, but the strength journey from thereon can be very, very long.

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Keilani Gutierrez

there seems to be a back and forth on (relative to your training or ideology, idk) which movement is harder and why.

the facts are the following, all of these progressions are touched on throughout Foundation and some may make an appearance on Rings Two given their nature (adv pulling to develop reverse muscle up). the brachialis intensive exercises are left for later, for a reason.

if we were to discuss planes of movement, the parties who mention pullup bein paired with handstand pushup makes sense. when discussing gravity and our bodies position in an exercise in relation to it, we'd pair pullups with dips. there are so many combinations we could make through these concepts but why are we arguing over that? isn't it enough for us to see which progressions to touch on and when in our training to actually promote some sort of progress, instead of ping-pong'ing ideas back and forth when both are right in their own respect?

I think if more of us were at the level of performing HSPU, Inverted curls and adv Dip variations, we could exhange ideas on how each athlete enjoys different sorts of combinations there of to begin the days Ring Strength series until then, I think we're just kind of playing Fantasy GST.

there are so many ways we can spin this, position in relation to gravity (like dip with pullup)/ opposing movement patterns ( like pull up with handstand pushup)/ bent arm - straight arm. each one with its merits, if only the parties involved what agreed to focus on one topic at a time, instead of going back and forth and never coming to a consensus because each one is coming from a diff POV.

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Coach Sommer

... I think if more of us were at the level of performing HSPU, Inverted curls and adv Dip variations, we could exhange ideas on how each athlete enjoys different sorts of combinations there of to begin the days Ring Strength series until then, I think we're just kind of playing Fantasy GST ...

 

Well said.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

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Ryan Bailey

"Fantasy GST": Will there be a draft like in fantasy football?  If so, I'll go first.  I pick Jon Douglas.

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Jon Douglas

Maybe pick someone who has an inverted curl... :P

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Ronnicky Roy

My two cents:

I think the reasoning behind saying Dips are the push equivalent to pullups is that the torso is being moved in the same direction, with the same orientation. So a muscle up would be combining the two equivalents into one motion. The same would be for the reverse muscle up. Inverted curls and HSPU are the same direction and orientation for the body.
As far as difficulty idk if that's comparable without the experience and individual body types.
Dips have always been easier for me than pullups, and I can't even do a full ROM HSPU or Inverted curl(I've actually never attempted this).
But if this is the reasoning behind calling them equivalents to eachother, then the actual "equivalent" to a push up would be laying on your face before stretching your arms back up to parallel bars or low handing rings and pulling yourself up into the push up position. Essentially pulling yourself up from an assisted backlever. Or to further complicate this, have your face on the floor and your feet up on a box so your body is at a 45 degree angle. Stretch your arms back, pull up into the bottom position of the postion, then do a ring pushup.
That's some serious work lol.
The reverse would be a decline ring row, pulling yourself to parallel to floor, then pushing yourself into an inverted plank.

I think that's where this reasoning breaks down and comparing HSPU to pullups actually makes more sense. The body is loaded in the same body position, but different type of load.
HSPU/pullups (suspension and support with arms overhead.)
Pushups/Rows(suspension and support with arms in front of you)
Dips/InvertedCurls(suspension and support with arms below)
Backlever/Manna(suspension and support with arms behind you). Arms are of course static here, but that makes sense because there is no time in any real world situation whether it be combat/sport or day to day that you would need to push your arms directly behind you with a upright torso, nor pulling from your arms behind you(unless you're dragging a sled I guess).

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Ronnicky Roy

Left out
Planche/FrontLever(static support and suspension strength with arms in front)
HandstandHold/Hanging(static support and suspension strength with arms above)
Hold in Dip support/InvertedHang(static support and suspension with arms below).

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Jon Douglas

Side lever / other side lever ^_^

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Ronnicky Roy

^Hah. This guuuy

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Ronnicky Roy

I guess you would have to tie a rope to two oxes that try to pull you in opposite directions. And the equivalent of that would be walking into two elevator doors closing and holding them open Hercules style

Or Samson

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