Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
hype

Oac vs oap

Recommended Posts

Paul Del Casino

OK thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jon Douglas

That's your prerogative; it's your site and you're not obliged to tell anyone anything that you feel may result in their harm. My point is that let's say I do what's required to show that I'm ready to train for OAC and then you tell me a set of progressions or exercises to work towards it. Now anyone on this forum who ISN'T ready to train for OAC can see that and use it and injure themselves.

So all that said, it seems like the prerequisites are a solid RC and/or at least 18 solid PUs (I'm assuming shoulder-width hand spacing and that you want a pull-up, not a chin-up). What else would be needed for a solid foundation? I'll work on getting videos of those in the meantime. (RC video will be a challenge given the workout space I use but I can get something adequate I think).

Just to avoid any confusion, this is Coach Sommers' site, and his views have been pretty firm throughout :) we contribute and help each other but in the end listening to the world class coach is what brought us here. We have some other accomplished athletes and coaches of different sports and pursuits, but when it comes to gymnastics strength, Coach is pretty much the last word.

Following his advice and taking advantage of his experience is the closest thing we have to a shortcut :)

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mikkel Ravn

That's a little odd. The rest of the GB workouts are clearly delineated and you'd injure yourself trying any of them that you're not ready for. It's the whole reason to HAVE the progressions and tips, to make sure you're not starting at a point that's beyond your abilities. These are workouts for individuals; everyone is responsible for their own preparation/safety. If I want to train for a OAC, it's up to ME to determine if I'm ready (based on the guidelines provided by the experts on here). I shouldn't have to PROVE that.

I thought the forums existed to answer questions about training. "I'm having trouble progressing past such and such exercise.", "Here's a video of me doing X, am I doing it right?". "What hand position should I use for X?". etc. There's no liability on the part of any poster saying "Here's a set/rep progression for the OAC" just like there's no liability for GB publishing any of their work for anyone who wants to try it.

I felt exactly like you, until I snapped my left medial epicondial tendon in my elbow during OAC training. After that, I was a bit more receptive to sound advice.

PS: I couldn't do any meaningful pulling work for a year, and the injury will never go away completely.

  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Paul Del Casino

Just to avoid any confusion, this is Coach Sommers' site, and his views have been pretty firm throughout :) we contribute and help each other but in the end listening to the world class coach is what brought us here. We have some other accomplished athletes and coaches of different sports and pursuits, but when it comes to gymnastics strength, Coach is pretty much the last word.

Following his advice and taking advantage of his experience is the closest thing we have to a shortcut :)

Yeah I hear you. I have to remember that the site caters to people of all skill and health levels, and not everyone can (or should) train at the same rate. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alexander Egebak

Just to avoid any confusion, this is Coach Sommers' site, and his views have been pretty firm throughout :) we contribute and help each other but in the end listening to the world class coach is what brought us here. We have some other accomplished athletes and coaches of different sports and pursuits, but when it comes to gymnastics strength, Coach is pretty much the last word.

Following his advice and taking advantage of his experience is the closest thing we have to a shortcut :)

I liked owning the site only for a little while...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jon Douglas

I liked owning the site only for a little while...

You knew it was too good to last man ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mouclier Victor

Could you explain why pseudo planche pushups are recommended for OAC training ?

 

(The quoting function doesn't work for me, sorry)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Joshua Slocum

Could you explain why pseudo planche pushups are recommended for OAC training ?

(The quoting function doesn't work for me, sorry)

You should have a lot of pushing strength if your pulling strength is at OAC level. Ideally you'd be able to do muc h more than just PPP.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mouclier Victor

Thanks, so it's for muscular balance and PPP has nothing to do with elbow conditioning ? because when someone is doing planche pushups you can see the brachialis contracting very hard...

Edited by Bosco

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jon Douglas

Thanks, so it's for muscular balance and PPP has nothing to do with elbow conditioning ? because when someone is doing planche pushups you can see the brachialis contracting very hard...

Due to its low leverage there is an elbow conditioning component, but the OAC/OAP is a hell of a lot more demanding than these. If you are still getting joint stress from PPP then most definitely the one arm pulls should wait :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Brian Li

Due to its low leverage there is an elbow conditioning component, but the OAC/OAP is a hell of a lot more demanding than these. If you are still getting joint stress from PPP then most definitely the one arm pulls should wait :)

That will depend on the degree of lean and hand placement. A planche lean with hands backwards and a lot of lean can be harder on the elbows then OAC/OAP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Keilani Gutierrez

I think that rope climb prescription should be taken a little more seriously, i'll be honest that before I got to dabbling in them i used to think that rope climbs werent that all special. the results have been slowly emerging. my max is 3-4 laps and once you start pulling your elbow all the way closed instead of 90 degrees they get REALLY taxing....went from not being able to hold a bent arm ching hang with one hand to lowering haphazardly in a few months. perhaps not the time table you'd like but i came with weak everything to GST so i've had to exercise being conservative to get the best results...

i wouldnt be surprised that by the time 4-5 or more laps feel moderately taxing if I was able to do one or two pulls without much extra effort and if i weren't able to im sure that it wouldn't be long until i could. especially after working Cirques.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
John Kiggundu

That's a little odd. The rest of the GB workouts are clearly delineated and you'd injure yourself trying any of them that you're not ready for. It's the whole reason to HAVE the progressions and tips, to make sure you're not starting at a point that's beyond your abilities. These are workouts for individuals; everyone is responsible for their own preparation/safety. If I want to train for a OAC, it's up to ME to determine if I'm ready (based on the guidelines provided by the experts on here). I shouldn't have to PROVE that.

I thought the forums existed to answer questions about training. "I'm having trouble progressing past such and such exercise.", "Here's a video of me doing X, am I doing it right?". "What hand position should I use for X?". etc. There's no liability on the part of any poster saying "Here's a set/rep progression for the OAC" just like there's no liability for GB publishing any of their work for anyone who wants to try it. 

 

I think GST is at times misleading in that we sometimes think that we're ready to do advanced skills – perhaps because we have been training for a long time and have acquired impressive feats of strength vis-a-vis the general population – or because we know somebody who trained himself to do a certain skill, and we think we can handle it, no problem.

 

But when Coach tells you you're not ready, he's not trying to judge you, or to belittle your abilities in any way. He certainly wishes the best for you and would very much like for you to be able to do these moves.

 

A good way to think this through is to imagine a music professor, say at Juilliard, with more than 40 years experience teaching music, who receives an inquiry from an eager student about how to play Beethoven's Symphony No.9.

 

The professor will instinctively know whether or not the student is ready to play Beethoven, let alone No. 9 (which was one of his most complex symphonies), just by the sort of questions the student asks. It's almost as if the student reveals all his cards simply by the type of questions he asks.

 

So, your asking whether a OAC or a OAP, which was better, revealed to Coach a few clues as to your depth of understanding of the requirements, preparation, etc., to perform the skill in question. And because of his vast knowledge and experience, he concluded that you were not quite ready for either.

 

This, at least, is my interpretation of his thinking. I could be wrong, but I don't think I'm far off.

  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Paul Del Casino

That's a valid point, but I wasn't actually the one who asked whether to do a OAC or a OAP. According to what I've read on here, I seem to have the prerequisites to start OAC training, but I'm going to post a couple videos and see what they think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Charlie Martin

I need to find myself a rope

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mats Trane

OAC is a party trick. Once you have it, what are you going to do with it??

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Luca Moro

Hey there, guys!
First of all I'd like to take advantage of this post to thank you all (especially coach Sommer) for sharing your opinions on this forum, allowed me to get some great advices. ;)

Now to enter the topic:
Premise that I consider Rope Climb superior to OAC/P too, especially after seeing the benefits when I implemented RC training in my routine, I just wanted to make a couple of points and ask your opinion about them:

1)Isn't it a good way to train Bent Arm Pulling Strength to an elevate degree for those who do not have access to a rope?
I think its a good substitute for RC since it develops a good unspecific pulling strength, and coupled with maybe some advanced pushing elements (and eventually ring elements) it could contribute to maintain structural balance, and eventually help conditioning the elbows (the risks could become the benefits for those prepared for it).

2)I once read that Climbers use to train this move, in particular OAP. I think that's a case where It became quite specific! What do you think?

Thanks in advance for your replies,
Luca
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Coach Sommer

Good questions.

Nope.  OAC/OAP are a very poor substitute for rope climbs for three reasons:

1) Most athletes are not nearly strong enough to benefit from OAC/OAP training without incurring serious tendonitis.  

2) Rope climbing is done with a neutral grip which strongly targets the brachialis.  The supinated and pronated grips of the one arm variations do not target the brachialis nearly as strongly.

3) Mastering legless rope climbs results in either having already having OAC/OAP as a result of the RC training or OAC/OAP is achieved shortly thereafter with very little training; all without risking tendonitis.

Given these variables, there is really no advantage in pursuing OAC/OAP training directly prior to mastering RC.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

  • Upvote 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Eva Pelegrin
On 6/12/2015 at 0:48 AM, Jon Douglas said:

Coach is pretty much the last word.

Following his advice and taking advantage of his experience is the closest thing we have to a shortcut :)

Can we frame this? Jon, are you are writer, poet? I have an inappropriate reading crush on you. lol. 

I don't understand what's wrong with some people... If you find a one-of-a-kind teacher, LISTEN. Try to get not too "creative" and do the f* work in the order that is prescribed. You can think and ask questions, but you better know your place. You must trust the process. There's a reason why things are a certain way in "Nature." We may not always understand it. Working with a good coach is no different. 

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Keilani Gutierrez

it took me a while to realize that rope climbing is essentially oac training without risk of injury. i havent moved past RC/PE6 and i've experienced a huge jump in pulling strength by occassionally dabbling in rope climbs. it's a lot of fun, challenging and you really get cranking once you close the elbow angle as much as you can, instead of leaving a wide elbow angle OR too closed like most untrained people do.

besides, it looks so much cooler to do cirques (legless RC followed by OAC negatives on the descent), I think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Andrew Long

honestly even with getting stronger at climbing as the goal i would say RC (cirques in particular) is a better option than OAC/OAP  simply because of the grip strength component.  in saying that I think you have the answer.  get your RC up to scratch and if you dont have a OAP/OAC by then it wont take long until you do.   

Side note:  i would start with OAC simply because it encourages external rotation of the upper arm more so than the OAP.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alessandro Mainente

2 of mine strongest clients have finished the RC, then we've worked on more harder variations of rope climbing.

at the end of those variations they were both able to do 3 one arm pullup with 5 kg assistance. basically the gap in between no assistance is very very very low. as you can see if rope climbing is approached with intelligence and progressive work, you will stay away from injury and training frustration. 

  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×

Important Information

Please review our Privacy Policy at Privacy Policy before using the forums.