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hype

Oac vs oap

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hype

Hi,

I read a lot of threads about which one is harder, but I'd like to know which one is actually more beneficial to learn for more advanced strength elements later?

I want to start working oac or oap but I don't know which one to focus on

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Coach Sommer

Beginners do not train either one of these here. 

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

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Alexander Egebak

It is a common mistake to believe that one can jump straight into specific progressions for those 2 elements.

 

For the best progress towards those elements I would recommend first having mastered advanced pull up progressions, legless rope climbs and pseudo planche push ups with significant lean.

 

From thereon you can work specific progressions while having minimized risk of injury and risk of plateauing. It is also the most effective way to go.

 

If you would like to know more about achieving those progressions you should look into buying Foundation 1-4 which are the official programs of this site.

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Ronnicky Roy

Many say to begin training this movement, that you should already be able to do 5 deadhang pullups, with 30% of your bodyweight beforehand with relative ease. Definitely not something to start training if you'very not mastered pullups already.

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Alexander Egebak

Many say to begin training this movement, that you should already be able to do 5 deadhang pullups, with 30% of your bodyweight beforehand with relative ease. Definitely not something to start training if you'very not mastered pullups already.

That is a reasonable goal, strength-wise. But in my opinion not the best way. I would still go with solid rope climbs for elbow health. If rope climb mastery translates to 30% BW pull ups or the other way around, than it is all good.

 

But yeah, if you cannot do a pull up, you are on thin ice. Actually, I do not think one actually can injure oneself here, because one must be able to actually do something first.

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Ronnicky Roy

Yea, I think that would be a better way for the body to adapt too. It's a different form of development

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Jon Douglas

Definitely you can injure yourself, because the advice always seems to be single arm negatives. Then tendonitis. Sound familiar to anyone?

We have discussed the lack of carryover to ring str of these before. Rope climbs are the way to go.

If you are just looking for a party trick, that's a different story. But I would certainly recommend more than 5 deadhang pullups as a pre req; 5 pullups shouldn't even be a warmup if you are seriously chasing oac :)

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Alessandro Mainente

i would be less generous, 18 to 20 pullup, in this way you are doing about the 40 to 50% of you 1RM and you can manage probably the 70-80% of your BW for a weighted pullup. then I would approach isometric at the top position, at least 7-10 hold before approach the negative in the first 90°. no doubts about the Found 4 RC mobility to avoid shoulder upward luxation.

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hype

Guys you're not even answering the question here...

I can do 20 to 25 pull ups and pull up 70% of my bodyweight... I have done a lot of research already and am very aware of the risks of injuries, I wouldn't work it if I wasn't feeling ready.. And if I feel like I'm not yet ready when I start, then I will definitely stop

What I was asking is which one is more beneficial, cause working both would obv be too much and lead to injuries

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Alessandro Mainente

adv rings strength element needs specific preparation. oac or oap are nor specific

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Ronnicky Roy

In my opinion, oap offer you more. Those are also harder because of the anti rotational aspect. With oac you incorporate the bicep more. That's my take on it. You may need to start with oac, then move on to oap

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Alexander Egebak

Guys you're not even answering the question here...

I can do 20 to 25 pull ups and pull up 70% of my bodyweight... I have done a lot of research already and am very aware of the risks of injuries, I wouldn't work it if I wasn't feeling ready.. And if I feel like I'm not yet ready when I start, then I will definitely stop

What I was asking is which one is more beneficial, cause working both would obv be too much and lead to injuries

Post a form check of your 20 hollow deadhang pull ups pecs to bar without pause without momentum. Then do some rope climbing.

 

If you cannot do that you should not do OAC work.

 

At least that is the general consensus of this site, and you are asking us specifically, after all.

 

I dislike handing out advice to people on a crash course with their training, with all due respect.

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Alessandro Mainente

rope climbing is by far superior compared to oap and oac.

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Christoph Pahl

About everyone I saw (come climbers, including me) did one arm pulls in a hammer grip - which is where you naturally land when you don't force chin- or pullup.

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Paul Del Casino

Is there a OAC progression anywhere on this site? 

 

The original GB book, the paper copy, had OACs featured briefly in it, but there was no rep/set progression or much detail about form, etc. 

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Alexander Egebak

Is there a OAC progression anywhere on this site? 

 

The original GB book, the paper copy, had OACs featured briefly in it, but there was no rep/set progression or much detail about form, etc. 

You will probably face the same issues as the original poster; that you have to prove that you are "ready" for them because far too many people injure themselves training for them. It is a policy of this site not to get involved in people's bad training which is completely understandable, so if you want one arm chin up advice from here you better post your rope climbs...

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Ronnicky Roy

If you consider the motion that Rope Climbing is, it really makes sense. It's essentially partial OAC/OAP coupled with OAC/OAP negatives on the way down. That's 2 facets of training towards OAP in a single exercise. If you can't do RopeClimb, then I would agree with the next guy to say you're not prepared to seriously train OAC without injury. And when I say injury, tendonitis is classified as injury.

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Ronnicky Roy

If you're the type to add weight to you during pullups, then you could work your way up on those until you can do 5-10 reps with 50% bodyweight with relative ease. If you can and still feel like you can do more, then strength wise you are "probably" ready to train specific for OAC. Doing negatives and so on. When I was 190lb, I could do 5 pullups with 100 pounds on my shoulders and the most I could do was OAC negatives and from deadhang, pull myself up to a 90 degree angle bend in the arms. I never got any tendonitis or discomfort. My training also ended there tho. I didn't chase it. So, I don't really feel comfortable that doing that will not lead to injury. I just know you'll be strong enough to do the pull. Your tendons might disagree with you...maybe add in OAC hangs in the top position

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Paul Del Casino

You will probably face the same issues as the original poster; that you have to prove that you are "ready" for them because far too many people injure themselves training for them. It is a policy of this site not to get involved in people's bad training which is completely understandable, so if you want one arm chin up advice from here you better post your rope climbs...

That's a little odd. The rest of the GB workouts are clearly delineated and you'd injure yourself trying any of them that you're not ready for. It's the whole reason to HAVE the progressions and tips, to make sure you're not starting at a point that's beyond your abilities. These are workouts for individuals; everyone is responsible for their own preparation/safety. If I want to train for a OAC, it's up to ME to determine if I'm ready (based on the guidelines provided by the experts on here). I shouldn't have to PROVE that.

I thought the forums existed to answer questions about training. "I'm having trouble progressing past such and such exercise.", "Here's a video of me doing X, am I doing it right?". "What hand position should I use for X?". etc. There's no liability on the part of any poster saying "Here's a set/rep progression for the OAC" just like there's no liability for GB publishing any of their work for anyone who wants to try it. 

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hype

Good advices and I understand your concerns

I don't have access to any rope around here tho so I will try to work my way up to a pullup with 70% of my bodyweight added before starting the oac training

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Coach Sommer

That's a little odd ... These are workouts for individuals; everyone is responsible for their own preparation/safety. If I want to train for a OAC, it's up to ME to determine if I'm ready (based on the guidelines provided by the experts on here). I shouldn't have to PROVE that ... 

 

Incorrect.  

 

When seeking advice here, you will most definitely need to show that you are adequately prepared for more advanced skills.

 

You are welcome to disregard that advice, however in that instance you will need to seek guidance elsewhere for training skills that you are not yet ready for.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

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Alexander Egebak
 

That's a little odd. The rest of the GB workouts are clearly delineated and you'd injure yourself trying any of them that you're not ready for. It's the whole reason to HAVE the progressions and tips, to make sure you're not starting at a point that's beyond your abilities. These are workouts for individuals; everyone is responsible for their own preparation/safety. If I want to train for a OAC, it's up to ME to determine if I'm ready (based on the guidelines provided by the experts on here). I shouldn't have to PROVE that.

I thought the forums existed to answer questions about training. "I'm having trouble progressing past such and such exercise.", "Here's a video of me doing X, am I doing it right?". "What hand position should I use for X?". etc. There's no liability on the part of any poster saying "Here's a set/rep progression for the OAC" just like there's no liability for GB publishing any of their work for anyone who wants to try it. 

Well, I disagree. I dislike answering people's questions knowing that they might injure themselves by using that information. Perhaps that is "wrong" but that is how I feel.

 

I think that the correct thing here to do is like coach is doing; holding himself to higher standards and thereby holding other people to higher standards. That will also water down the people getting injured following the advice being given here thus making GB appear more professional. And then there is the personal principle of disliking the fact that people harm themselves...

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Jon Douglas

There is also, as I mentioned, a ton of OAP/OAC material on here from the past years. Since then, Coach has investigated their effects with his own athletes, been unimpressed, and phased them out. So they're no longer a priority for many people here aiming for higher levels. No one is stopping anyone from digging.

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Paul Del Casino

 

 

Well, I disagree. I dislike answering people's questions knowing that they might injure themselves by using that information. Perhaps that is "wrong" but that is how I feel.

 

I think that the correct thing here to do is like coach is doing; holding himself to higher standards and thereby holding other people to higher standards. That will also water down the people getting injured following the advice being given here thus making GB appear more professional. And then there is the personal principle of disliking the fact that people harm themselves...

 

That's your prerogative; it's your site and you're not obliged to tell anyone anything that you feel may result in their harm. My point is that let's say I do what's required to show that I'm ready to train for OAC and then you tell me a set of progressions or exercises to work towards it. Now anyone on this forum who ISN'T ready to train for OAC can see that and use it and injure themselves. 

 

So all that said, it seems like the prerequisites are a solid RC and/or at least 18 solid PUs (I'm assuming shoulder-width hand spacing and that you want a pull-up, not a chin-up). What else would be needed for a solid foundation? I'll work on getting videos of those in the meantime. (RC video will be a challenge given the workout space I use but I can get something adequate I think).  

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Jesus Rojas

 What else would be needed for a solid foundation?   

I would add good mobility while hanging from one arm.

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