My Current Focus: HBP/PE2

LOL!

Enkido, I really, really liked your essays. They are well thought out & articulated... they put into words something that's been floating nebulously around in my head for months. I personally have been stuck on pushups for a long time, but it hasn't all been contiguous time (interrupted by 2nd child, as well as by 2nd labrum SLAP tear), so I've never allowed myself to say that I've legitimately plateaued. Each interruption caused me to reset, and with each reset I brought new resolve to this time get my form perfect and work hard, according to Coach Sommer's definition.

 

The Foundation courses have really worked with my style and I've attributed them to the healthy rehabilitation of my shoulder, so I'm a staunch advocate of them & their procedures. Being such a champion of them it's really hard for me to say "it's not working" -- I always say "no, they're the gospel; I'm not working hard enough," or "I'm doing it wrong." But I've reset on many more elements than just HBP (usually because I claimed mastery, then saw something in someone else's mastery check that I was doing, that would not count for mastery), and each time I've thought "man, the training that I did on this harder element has made it easier for me to now correct this earlier element." In other words, I made maximal strength gains later, which increased my potential for strength endurance with the easier element, which I then demonstrated. 

 

I've wanted to write about this, but couldn't find the right words. Your explanation of maximal strength & potential for strength endurance does it brilliantly, IMO, and I don't think you're usurping Coach Sommer's authority or training regimen at all. I think a condensed version of these two posts should make its way to the wiki. 

I also want to back up what Endiku has said.

 

Last year I was super close to mastering push ups, my last rep was just a little slow, thats how close I was, then I took three weeks off over Christmas and fell back quite a way. Now again I am super close to mastery with the last 3 reps just a bit slow.

 

The first time I got close I was bench pressing 70kg for sets of 10 (7-8 sets) at a body weight of around 80kg

 

This time I have been doing PE4 and am currently at a rep scheme of 10,10,10,10,6

 

I think that these more maximal strength elements helped a lot in managing the push up reps. Potentially I could do better with lower rep, higher weights. But I don't much like benching, and I thought if I'm going to do dips (I was going to do weighted dips) I might as well start at PE4.

 

Thats just my quick 2 cents

Nash, Target met.

5x11r /sunglasses

Thanks Wamarler & Blair.

 

BTW, my advice on strength is also mirrored in what Coach Sommer himself wrote in BtGB:

 

"When building basic strength, it is best to employ a low repetition, low volume scheme for any given exercise. This general template coupled with various set construction options will be suitable for the vast majority of

athletes."

 

"Most trainees should plan on working in sets of either 3x3 or 3x5; with all of these being work sets. There are two exceptions however to this general rule. Typically it is best for pre-pubescent athletes to use a very simple template of 1x3-5 reps. While it is true that these younger athletes are capable of incredible gains in strength, the total volume (tonnage) of weight moved in higher volume work simply cuts too deeply into their limited recovery ability."

 

"There are also other athletes, an admittedly very small minority, who absolutely stagnate when forced to follow low repetition low volume training. They require an absolute minimum of 5 sets of 5 reps during their basic strength training in order to receive the correct neurological stimulation for their particular physiology. Unfortunately, there is no way to accurately predict who will need the additional volume other than practical experience."

 

"If, after all of the above, additional hypertrophy is still required for an exceptionally slim athlete to be able to perform adequately, a template of 10x3 work sets done every two minutes or a pyramid structure of 12,10,8,6 reps with increasing training loads as the repetitions decrease will usually resolve the issue."

What enkidu has said is very insightful. I view the foundation template as a simple guide which provides some structure to an individuals programming. I've seen the progression and they are fantastic. Never seen anything like it. But I believe in order to achieve mastery in each progression requires more fine tuning, at least for an untrained/semi-active individual coupled with the early higher rep schemes. 

 

One such principle which is thoroughly used at least in barbell training is variation. In order to continuously progress variation in exercises, sets, reps, rest time, volume, etc is always used. It struck me as odd in how it is possible for someone who has plateaued in a given progression to advance doing the same thing over and over again but to no avail. If you cannot advance then what you're currently doing is simply not working. You should change it up for a bit and then come back to it if need be.

 

One such experience I had with the template was this. I wanted to believe in the template, and more importantly give it time, so that I could see improvements. But it didn't happen. Nonetheless I continued and injury (elbow pain) stopped me from performing HBP/PE2. I didn't stop training foundation and instead substituted the PE with the barbell military press as this was the only movement I could do that did not cause me any pain. I done this for a around 6 weeks I believe until my elbow pain had gone. Prior to stopping HBP/PE2 I was on 4x10 and that was just about. Always struggled with the last rep. I came back to it after the 6 weeks of not performing any other press except the military press (just using the barbell) and found that I could somewhat comfortably perform 5x10. I still had a bit more in the tank. 

 

This is what I mean by variation. I would suggest for anyone to try and either mix up their training with other presses or another very common method also is to increase the total volume performed during the week (that's not to say that you should burn yourself out by doing this!!!). This is my experience with the template. Variation or increased volume on the given exercise when you hit a plateau I do believe is key!

 

Also what makes more sense to me in the template is to increase the volume then intensity, not both. What I mean by this is that I've changed the template to do each step by step. For example, a standard block 3 template:

 

4x12 = 48 reps

4x15 = 60 reps

5x15 = 75 reps

 

Instead I prefer this so that my body can better deal with the increase in volume/intensity:

 

4x12 = 48 reps

5x12 = 60 reps (increase volume)

4x15 = 60 reps (increase intensity)

5x15 = 75 reps (increase volume)

 

At each step I would wait till I become comfortable with it to ensure perfect form and gradual improvement. Obviously deload when necessary. Well that's my take on it guys hope this helps

Is it possible that those that are struggling, and those that are benefiting from barbell work, have a weak link in the chest? Like with obliques in arch body. I feel the pushups in my chest for sure, but my chest is also super underdeveloped compared to triceps and shoulders, which are worked quite a bit in the narrow variation. Wide or "normal" grip pushups, or barbell presses, emphasise the chest more. I did wide pushups yesterday and my chest is sore. I'm considering doing some wide pushups for a while to bring my chest closer to balance.

Jason Dupree said:

Is it possible that those that are struggling, and those that are benefiting from barbell work, have a weak link in the chest? 

 

I think it's quite apparent that we have a weak link somewhere : ).

Jason Dupree said:

Is it possible that those that are struggling, and those that are benefiting from barbell work, have a weak link in the chest? Like with obliques in arch body. I feel the pushups in my chest for sure, but my chest is also super underdeveloped compared to triceps and shoulders, which are worked quite a bit in the narrow variation. Wide or "normal" grip pushups, or barbell presses, emphasise the chest more. I did wide pushups yesterday and my chest is sore. I'm considering doing some wide pushups for a while to bring my chest closer to balance.

when you were doing PE1, were you protracting at the top? i don't feel the pushups taxing in my chest because I can do 21r of scapula pushups in a row without being moderately taxed. I feel it in the triceps. maybe you can work on a warm up set of hip high to knee high incline pushups for 9-15-21 reps to see how you do, unless you already do?

Yes, I focused on protraction. Can show mastery at hip height easily. I may do knee height, then move back to pushups.

Jason Dupree said:

Is it possible that those that are struggling, and those that are benefiting from barbell work, have a weak link in the chest? Like with obliques in arch body. I feel the pushups in my chest for sure, but my chest is also super underdeveloped compared to triceps and shoulders, which are worked quite a bit in the narrow variation. Wide or "normal" grip pushups, or barbell presses, emphasise the chest more. I did wide pushups yesterday and my chest is sore. I'm considering doing some wide pushups for a while to bring my chest closer to balance.

Barbell work is just a means, but not the underlying method. Just to be clear, when I speak of maximal strength training, I am not limiting it to barbell work. It is entirely possible to supplement HBP PE2 with bodyweight only training. I chose to use a barbell because Olympic Weightlifting is my primary sport.

But yes, if someone needs supplemental strength training, whether barbell or otherwise, obviously there is a weak link (or several) somewhere. In my caee I doubt it wss the chest since strict presses and push presses got me through my stall point. This indicates to me that arm and/or shoulder strength was the limiting factor for me.

Jason Dupree said:

Yes, I focused on protraction. Can show mastery at hip height easily. I may do knee height, then move back to pushups.

maybe just using it as a warm up can work.

Well now I'm curious to see if mastering at knee height will do anything for me lol

I agree about your conclusions to increase maximal strength before strength endurance is the fastest way. One important side note though; the 5 x 15 reps is wanted because building up a significant work capacity is being emphasized. One should still aim for 5 x 15 for that exact reason, no matter how you go about it.

Alexander Egebak said:

I agree about your conclusions to increase maximal strength before strength endurance is the fastest way. One important side note though; the 5 x 15 reps is wanted because building up a significant work capacity is being emphasized. One should still aim for 5 x 15 for that exact reason, no matter how you go about it.

Just to be perfectly clear, and so I am not being misunderstood, I did not conclude that someone should train strength first before training strength endurance.  If that is what you got from my lengthy posts, then I must not have stated it clearly.

 

What I am suggesting is that if someone is stuck without progressing in bloc 3 of HBP PE2 for several months, then it would likely behoove them to add some additional maximal strength work in -- not in place of HBP PE2, but rather in addition to it.  I completely agree that the goal is to master PE2.

Just tried mastery of Pe1 at knee height. Nailed it. Triceps were crying like babies on the last set but form and tempo stayed perfect (had a mirror to my front and side). I think next week I'll try block 1 week 3 of pe2.

Been thinking about this... I mastered PE1 quickly enough at hip height but found that I keep stalling out between 6-9 reps on PE2. Have switched to progressing at knee height as PE1.5, and am doing the Xiaopings as my IM.

To some of the earlier comments, I don't find that my triceps are tiring as fast as everything else.. Chest, core, various scapular depressors. I do wonder whether other chest work would help though I'm not sure what I would do. The core and scapular work would be planks but if the theory of maximal strength is right, I'd want to make those harder some how...

Just some thoughts.

Marc Nerenberg said:

Been thinking about this... I mastered PE1 quickly enough at hip height but found that I keep stalling out between 6-9 reps on PE2. Have switched to progressing at knee height as PE1.5, and am doing the Xiaopings as my IM.

To some of the earlier comments, I don't find that my triceps are tiring as fast as everything else.. Chest, core, various scapular depressors. I do wonder whether other chest work would help though I'm not sure what I would do. The core and scapular work would be planks but if the theory of maximal strength is right, I'd want to make those harder some how...

Just some thoughts.

Are you still progressing each cycle? This can be in terms of quality or reps.

Today: 13r, 13r, 12r, 12r, 12r

 

Total Reps: 62

 

Notes:

- For the last 6 reps in the last set, I had to take 2-3 breaths at the top as rest.

- I did today's workout while my shoulders were sore after playing with some incline pushups during the week. I'm testing Enkidu's theory by doing incline pushups during the week as strength. Nothing crazy. 2 sets of 5 reps.

Have you tried doing HBP/PE3 for 2-3 reps? Or even just one really slow and controlled rep. I just tried this and also adding weight on my back for slow low rep sets of HBP/PE2 really kicked the intensity up a notch. 

 

Will probably just stick with the HBP/PE2 with weight on my back to keep the adaptations relevant to what I'm working on. I'm on a deload week now though so it will be interesting to see if they have any affect on the next cycle. I'm still on the 4x15 set week 10 at 15,15,15,10 but I have been adding an additional set of 8-10 to help bring up the fourth set.

> Have you tried doing HBP/PE3 for 2-3 reps?

 

No, just started experimenting with inclines during the week as long as I'm 2+ days away from pushup day. Otherwise, no pushups. My weak point in PE2 is my shoulders. That's where all the pain and soreness happens.

 

> Will probably just stick with the HBP/PE2 with weight on my back 

 

How much weight are you using? Is it a vest? I'm considering buying a 60lb vest from Amazon if the inclines don't do the job.

 

> I have been adding an additional set of 8-10 to help bring up the fourth set.

 

This didn't do much for me. Might work for you as it did for others though.

 

At this point, I saw the most progress after doing 2 things:

  A) scaling back to 1 day/week PE2s (I went from 2 day per week then to 3day split and now 1 day/week)

  B) arranging my workouts around shoulders and no shoulders so I have at least 2+ days of key muscle rest before the push-ups.

 

Good luck!

 

-Nash

You don't need to be playing around with weight vests if you can't master 5x15. If you look through the whole of Fundation you will notice the weight vest is not used once. Usually wearing a weight vest places a shear load on the lower back that is not good for the long term health of the spine.

Hey Nash, here's my two cents:

Back in the days I did basic bodyweight training I remember doing push ups and pull ups n two separate days to increase the numbers. So in 5 months my push ups increased by 65 from 10 to 75 per single set. I only needed to rest about 5 minutes between sets.

Although people here provide a lot of good ideas to experiment with it is also important to stick to one way and being consistent in doing so in order to see the effects of that exact strategy.

Alexander Egebak said:

Although people here provide a lot of good ideas to experiment with it is also important to stick to one way and being consistent in doing so in order to see the effects of that exact strategy.

Totally agree with this.