muscle memory - muscle strength, Straddle Planche, V-Sit, Pike Press

[misssunshine]

So, I have been a lot into this bodyweight strength and gymnastics thing recently. I read a lot of books, articles, boards, forums, I talked to many coaches, been in gyms watching crossfitters, freerunners, acrobats and gymnasts train.

It is obvious that gymnasts have the best foundation, they do the skills the hard but right way and for me, this is the best way to do it. I would prefer a nice tuck planche with good form over a bent arm, piked hips straddle planche or a nice straddle press from stand over a sloppy, bent arm one with a lot of leaning from straddle L!

I know that Foundation is working toward 7 skills: Front Lever, Side Lever, Rope Climb, SLS, Hollow Back Press, Straddle Planche and Manna.

I do know that the mastery of rope climb for example is not only climbing it without legs, but a lot harder and includes the one arm decent thing. However, I think the three most impressive skills are the manna and the Straddle Planche and also Pike through to Handstand on floor (although not covered in Foundation or Handstand, just on P-Bars) and have a few questions concerning those.

I will tell you what I actually know about the three skills.

1) Straddle Planche

I think this is definitely a shoulder/trapezius thing and also the ability to hold the legs out, so lower back and legs.
I do think that a wide Straddle Planche is achievable for pretty much any athlete, no matter if male or female, if body composition is about right and they train hard for it.
Here is an example of what I think should be achievable.

So basically, holding an almost parallel planche, legs straddled very wide, hips turned out for about 5 seconds should be doable for hard working athletes with good body proportions. 

--> If someone has a nice tuck planche for almost a minute and can hold a Straddle Planche at 45° for a few seconds, it would take him about 8 months to get the Straddle Planche to almost parallel to the floor like in the video.

2) Manna 

I read the article of Coach Sommer about the manna and that it is a misunderstanding that a V-Sit translates into a manna, because it should begin with legs straddled wide at first and bringing them together at the end.
I see people doing V-Sits in two different ways. Some almost don't push their hips forward at all, but they have such a good compression that they can hold their feet touching their face. Some push the hips forward like in a manna.
However, I have the impression that a manna might be one of the hardest moves. Is this also something that is achievable for everyone who works hard?
here are two pictures:
A very nice manna, legs almost parallel to floor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yowJFre0LgM

More of a V-Sit, but still looks very nice: https://www.tumblr.com/search/iryna%20krasnianska
I bet this gymnast entered this position from a normal V-Sit, just raising her piked legs or until in this position. What is the gymnast in the second picture doing wrong that her training didn't let her achieve a manna? Which muscles is she still missing in that state that she isn't able to be in a complete manna position?
Is a real manna possible for girls? There are not a lot of sources of girls or women doing manna! I do think the position in the second picture is very good already!

--> If an athlete has a nice V-Sit, legs pointing straight up, for a few seconds, I would say he/she can achieve the position in the second picture in about 8 months. 

3) Pike through to pike handstand

Definitely a compression thing. Of course, you need a little strength. You should be able to have a press handstand, a normal pike press and a good L-Sit. But then all that it really is is compression. The longer the legs and the shorter the arms, the harder it gets. 
I have the impression that once you are able to press through on P-Bars with legs very close to the body, it is just a muscle memory thing. You should not loose the compression during the press. And you need to compress more and more. I guess the last few inches are probably the hardest thing, but with constant repletion and a lot of compression work it can be done.

--> If an athlete can V-Sit pike press through with hands elevated of about 3 inches, he/she just needs to keep doing it over and over again and work on the compression and he/she should be able to do it in 8 months.

 

 

4) Last question: How far can an athlete go? I would say, that with proper training, the three skills mentioned above can be achieved in a year if you have a good base (strength and flexibility) already. Progress is pretty fast in the beginning, especially with things where you need more muscle memory rather than pure muscle strength. I would say that once you have a straddle planche for a few seconds, can hold a nice V-Sit or close to manna like in the picture for a few seconds and can pike press through - progress will slow down rapidly. This is already amazing and at the edge of human capacity. If you want more from there, like a horizontal manna or a full planche - you should plan in a lot more time and years of training. 


So, those is what >I think< I know about the three skills. The statements I posted at the end of each skills about how long it would take to achieve it are just my personal guesses, because I am just really interested in all of that! I would appreciate any corrections and additional information!

Thank You!

[Toni Laukkavaara]

Sure you can "achieve" some of the skills fast, BUT without the connectivetissue conditioning you will injure yourself and/ or lose the skill sooner or later

[misssunshine]

Sure you can "achieve" some of the skills fast, BUT without the connectivetissue conditioning you will injure yourself and/ or lose the skill sooner or later

Thanks for your answer. Of course, I know that! I have to say that I am not asking because I want to do any of those things, I also don't want anyone to try that. I am asking just out of pure interest. I listened to all of Coach's podcasts, I read a lot of threads here. So I know about the importance of good programming, the importance of mobility and prep work etc.

It just fascinates me how our body learns. I mean, if you start bench pressing and you add more weight every few weeks it is clear you get stronger. By adding more weight, your muscle adapts. But gymnastic skills are so different and more complex, they require so much more than just strong muscles. And they require muscles, normal people don't even know about! I also love to learn about how our brain learns movements such as round offs, back handspring etc. I just find this topic really interesting.

So I know it is not a good idea to just train those skills if you have never done anything before or have a good coach. I just want to learn a little bit more about them. Like if it is achievable for everyone, which muscles are used mostly, how progressions are, how long it would take, how fast our body adapts and learns...all the things I wrote above.

No need to tell me about the importance of following Foundation or another good plan - I know about that. 

 

[Ivan Pavlovic]

There are not a lot of sources of girls or women doing manna! I do think the position in the second picture is very good already!

 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNsjUr0VQaM#t=94

 

There are some girls doing mannas.