Relative Strength VS Absolute Strength

[Alex Tansel]

Are there any gymnasts who can lift impressive numbers in absolute terms? (not relative)

This interests me because whenever I see people showing off the weight lifted by gymnasts it always seems to be in a relative to bodyweight context i.e. a 2x bodyweight bench or a 3x bodyweight deadlift.

The reason I ask is that the less you weigh the more impressive your relative strength will be, this is just how it works.

 

And gymnasts weigh near to nothing. So a gymnast with a 3x BW deadlift might still only be lifting 400lbs which in absolute terms isn't really a very strong deadlift. In fact I'd say most people with 6 months to year of linear strength training would achieve a 400lb deadlift - it's hardly super human.

 

It's always seemed strange to me to show off these lifts as amazingly strong. I mean any guy who is strong could theoretically cut their weight down and watch their relative strength go up. And tiny guys who lift will always have better relative strength.

 

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Just find it interesting, like are there any gymnasts that can pull over 1000lb totals?

[Mikkel Ravn]

Seems unlikely, after all you'd have to train weightlifting specifically to lift really heavy weights.

 

I think Coach's point is that gymnastics carry somewhat over to weightlifting, while the reverse isn't true. A triple bodyweight deadlift may not be impressive in absolute numbers, but the point is rather that it is extremely impressive for a beginner to weightlifting. The equivalent would be, that a weightlifter steps in to the gym and shows of an ugly straddle planche, and that doesn't seem to be happening, AFAIK.

 

However, this transferability notion is sometimes taken a bit to literally on this forum, and there have been heated debates as to how much you'd be able to bench if you had planche pushups for example. If you want to excel at benching, then benching should obviously be your main focus, not gymnastics.

 

Edit: Didn't catch that we were talking about totals...

[Jan Reipert]

I'm pretty surr almost every competitive gymnast could hit a 1000lbs total without any preparation.

I did not train the bench press for the last 15months except two sessions (only did foundation & light ring-work), each at least 6 months apart and hit a 125kg paused bench press @78kg in a powerlifting competition i took part in. That is of course not a mindblowing weight but considering i am much weaker than competitive gymnasts i am sure some if those guys could bench at least 140 to 150, which would be double bodyweight in most cases.

keep in mind that it is really hard to keep your strength on bench press when cutting weight. Your bench press and your squat will get weaker with each kg you lose while your deadlift does not really care.

[Alex Tansel]

I only mentioned totals because they don't factor in BW.

And yes DieKatze (very nice bench btw) I would have thought benching would have been pretty strong in absolute terms in a gymnast because of the sport being shoulder girdle dominant. I also think I remember Ido Portal mentioning about going pretty much straight into a 2 BW bench.

But would the bench be the strongest lift by a large degree for most gymnasts?

-

But I don't think starting on a 2x bodyweight deadlift without training is all that impressive when you consider gymnasts are elite athletes, and that 2x bw deadlift will still be weak in objective terms because a gymnast might only weigh 140lbs 

(this was replying to a post that seems to have been deleted - sorry if it seems out of place)

[Jesse Frigo]

I only mentioned totals because they don't factor in BW.

And yes DieKatze (very nice bench btw) I would have thought benching would have been pretty strong in absolute terms in a gymnast because of the sport being shoulder girdle dominant. I also think I remember Ido Portal mentioning about going pretty much straight into a 2 BW bench.

But would the bench be the strongest lift by a large degree for most gymnasts?

-

But I don't think starting on a 2x bodyweight deadlift without training is all that impressive when you consider gymnasts are elite athletes, and that 2x bw deadlift will still be weak in objective terms because a gymnast might only weigh 140lbs 

(this was replying to a post that seems to have been deleted - sorry if it seems out of place)

I would guess that gymnasts would do even better on Overhead Press than on bench press, competitively speaking, though it unfortunately isn't common in competition anymore.  Gymnasts spend a fair amount of time on upper body, that is correct, but they also spend far more time than most lifters do with inversion work or overhead pressing.  Bench press is more competitive in general, but the OHP is a much more impressive lift to have big numbers.  I've been working my OHP hard for a year or so and I'm still well away from reaching a bodyweight press.  Working handstands will probably improve my OHP more than just working OHP.

 

For some reference numbers, I pulled the Bench press and powerlifting records from New York from this website: http://www.angelfire.com/pa/bigal/adaurawpower/nyrecords.html

Looking at the men's bench press records, there is a huge jump from the 82.5kg to 90kg weight classes.  1000-lb totals aren't even guaranteed in the 165-lb weightclass for trained competitive lifters pushing to the max, at a competition they scheduled to peak at.  Why would you expect a gymnast to just walk in and move that?

[Hannibal Ahmed]

an olympic level 150 lb. gymnast, I think, should be able to deadlift 500 or more, considering what the bench would probably be, the squat would be at least 2x bodyweight and the bench press should be at least 2x bodyweight

[Coach Sommer]

Not sure about the 500lb for the 150lb gymnast, however JJ had world class ring strength and at 135lbs pulled a triple bodyweight deadlift of 405lb the first time he ever touched a bar.

 

However that being said, what does it matter?  It is what it is and you currently have your hands full with Foundation One.  

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Ronnicky Roy]

I think what's so impressive is that all of these gymnasts making these relatively big lifts is because they had never touched the barbell before. They are that far along with zero specific training. On top of that, these athletes are kids. By the time they are 22 if they pursued weightlifting the sky would be the limit

[Alex Atallah]

As I also understood that since gymnastic training is also based a lot on connective tissue and ligament strength (of course not only that) this would carry over when for example:

Lets say you do gymnastics for 10 years and then you go to gym and first time try to deadlift. You hit the 2x bodyweight - again as earlier said in this Thread in absolute strength wise is not very impressive...(150lb bodyweight  = 300 lbs deadlift) BUT as this person has his / her connective tissue and ligaments in order a really quick and rapid progress in the deadlift is possible and even reasonable?

So in other words could it be argued that this kind of person can get a pretty decent deadlift in a really quick time when relatively speaking (like in 6 months) ?

PS: If you have watched the videos of world level weightlifter Dmitry Klokov in youtube you can see that he is training with Igor Zaripov (a long time gymnastics in the world circus etc) and Zaripov started ... I don't remember the exact numbers but something along the lines of 90kg in Back Squat. In relatively quick time (few months) he squats now over 200 kgs. 

[Justin Rawley]

Keep in mind that Hossein Rezazadeh weighed about 330 lbs when he cleaned and jerked 600 lbs in the training hall - less that 2 x his body weight - and I don't think he ever achieved that in competition.  Naim Suleymanoglu cleaned and jerked 3 x his body weight at 56 kg (about 125 lbs).  I think only two people in the world have ever managed 3 x bw.  Elite women in the 58 kg class routinely clean and jerk 300 lbs, substantially more than 2 x their bodyweight, so there is a law of diminishing returns as one climbs in the weight classes. While a heavier person may be able to lift more absolute weight, this is not the case in relative terms.

[Blairbob]

I was gonna mention Igor Zaripov.

Most gymnasts have a hellified time with squatting compared to deadlifting. Most do not have a hard time benching first time out nor deadlift. 

 

I mean we can mention a bunch of CFers who are ex gymnasts but it's not like they were squatting 1.5-2xBW their first day out. 

[Scorpion6096]

[Connor Davies]

Not a gymnast, but relevant:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vcG6oR145h4

That man is probably pound for pound the greatest power lifter in the world. He got this way by PRACTICING, not by being necessarily stronger than a gymnast. He knows his lifts and he knows them well. Gymnasts may know a LOT of different moves, but none of them involve lifting a barbell.

I've heard stories of gymnasts throwing up 2 plates on bench on their first try. The scary thing is they do it all chest, no back arch, no foot drive or nothing.

Make no mistake, the have extreme degrees of absolute strength. They just dont get a lot of practicing in with the big 3. No amount of unrefined strength will ever match up to technique.

[Ronnicky Roy]

Not a gymnast, but relevant:

That man is probably pound for pound the greatest power lifter in the world. He got this way by PRACTICING, not by being necessarily stronger than a gymnast. He knows his lifts and he knows them well. Gymnasts may know a LOT of different moves, but none of them involve lifting a barbell.

I've heard stories of gymnasts throwing up 2 plates on bench on their first try. The scary thing is they do it all chest, no back arch, no foot drive or nothing.

Make no mistake, the have extreme degrees of absolute strength. They just dont get a lot of practicing in with the big 3. No amount of unrefined strength will ever match up to technique.

Worthy point. I forget who said it, but the phrase goes "Strength is a skill". You need to regularly practice and develop. Gymnasts have the most diverse strength skill sets, which is why they're so strong in many movements. But i think your comment misses the point that gymnasts can move into any other sport and quickly be great, with added strength skill practice because of the diverse foundation they already have.

[Connor Davies]

But i think your comment misses the point that gymnasts can move into any other sport and quickly be great, with added strength skill practice because of the diverse foundation they already have.

Yes and no. Gymnasts develop the ability to learn quickly, but professional power lifters spend years working 3 moves. The amount of technical proficiency they have with these 3 moves cannot be overstated. Gymnasts have a breadth of knowledge, power lifters have a depth of knowledge.

[Ronnicky Roy]

Yes and no. Gymnasts develop the ability to learn quickly, but professional power lifters spend years working 3 moves. The amount of technical proficiency they have with these 3 moves cannot be overstated. Gymnasts have a breadth of knowledge, power lifters have a depth of knowledge.

Not trying to downplay power lifters in the least but their skills really are very simplistic and the intricacies can be mastered in a very short time span, especially for gymnasts who have a comfort in shifting to APT and PPT easily. Power lifters are strong, but they've just drowned themselves into simple skills until mastered. Friend of mine with 0 lifting experience started powerlifting in October. He already has a 400lb deadlift and a 320lb squat as of yesterday. Not sure what his bench is. He's no gymnast mind you but he focused on calisthenics for years. The only thing that really seems to slow them down is the leg muscles of which you can only put on so much in a short time period

[Connor Davies]

Not trying to downplay power lifters in the least but their skills really are very simplistic and the intricacies can be mastered in a very short time span, especially for gymnasts who have a comfort in shifting to APT and PPT easily. Power lifters are strong, but they've just drowned themselves into simple skills until mastered. Friend of mine with 0 lifting experience started powerlifting in October. He already has a 400lb deadlift and a 320lb squat as of yesterday. Not sure what his bench is. He's no gymnast mind you but he focused on calisthenics for years. The only thing that really seems to slow them down is the leg muscles of which you can only put on so much in a short time period

This is true when you're still an amateur. After a certain point you reach peak muscle mass, and you can STILL gain a couple hundred pounds on the main lifts. A 45lb bench is not a 135lb bench is not a 225lb bench and so forth. The people who lift maximum poundages are performin very different lifts than people who don't compete on that level. I know your friend thinks he's mastered the squat, but when he goes from 400lbs to 600lbs I'm sure he'll think differently.

[Ronnicky Roy]

Fair point. At some point, it's a game of finding out where you're weak and doing accessory exercises to bump your main lifts. But i think we're veering away from the main topic of relative strength vs absolute strength

[Connor Davies]

Fair point. At some point, it's a game of finding out where you're weak and doing accessory exercises to bump your main lifts. But i think we're veering away from the main topic of relative strength vs absolute strength

I don't believe there IS a good way to measure absolute strength. To a certain extent economy of movement and neuro-motor patterns are going to be involved, no matter what.

The only way to really test it would be to have them both do something they've never done before. Atlas stones or something, IDK...

[Ronnicky Roy]

Lol. Have them both do a decathalon. That'd be fun to see

[Jesse Frigo]

Lol. Have them both do a decathalon. That'd be fun to see

The original Crossfit competition!  I like it.  I wish the decathlon was more popular overall, but with javelin throw and pole vault on top of hurdles and discus, even if someone has the resources to practice, the technique is difficult to learn well.

[Ronnicky Roy]

The original Crossfit competition!  I like it.  I wish the decathlon was more popular overall, but with javelin throw and pole vault on top of hurdles and discus, even if someone has the resources to practice, the technique is difficult to learn well.

Lol for sure, I think because it's so diverse it'd be the most fair judge between what offers more in terms of pound for pound strength.

Useless funfact: old buddy of my father in his marine corp days trained in decathalons. Specialized in hurling/shotput. Whichever is the one you heave the ball for distance. Anyways, in one of their combat stories. Enemy soldier runs out of ammo, turns tail and runs. My dad's bud just sayd, "watch this". He picks up a rather large stone and chucks it at the man running away. Takes him out with one shot xD