Overtraining? I don't know, I'm confused...

[Xavier]

I'm not a noob when it comes to rings even though I have only been on them since October 08, but something is intriguing me... I read something in the book about "overload, load and underload", and how it relates to training and rest. I have been pushing myself hard over the past few months but at the same time is really rare for me to be sore the next day or feel really tired which in turn makes me workout harder. After reading about steady state I decided to take things easier, I have increased the amount of work on my routines little by little, however, I think I have been increasing too much because lately I have been unable to replicate the same output all throughout the week. I changed intensity a little bit due to the fact that during the past months I was setting up the rings at a narrow distance from each other (because I didn't know any better). About 2 months ago I corrected that issue, and now they're set up the right distance of 50cm (or 19 inches), that of course made everything harder :!: and my Bulgarian dips went from 20 in a row to 4 :oops:. I will generally do my Monday and Tuesday routine flawlessly, however, when it comes time for Thursday (repeat Monday's routine) and Friday (repeat Tuesday routine) I'm spent and can only do about 60% of the routine or less. This problem started about 2 weeks ago, so I think is just the fatigue catching up to me. In case you're wondering what my current routine consist of here it is:

Monday: Bulgarian dips (3X5), Archer pushups (3X5 each arm), Pseudo planche pushups (3X5), Wall Maltese (60sec total), Wall headstand (2min total).

Tuesday: One arm chinups 3X3 (5sec top and bottom hold each arm), L-sit Bulgarians pullups (30 total), Straight body raises (3X3), Bulgarian rows (3X10), Muscle ups 3X5 (kipping).

Wednesday: Back level advanced tuck (1min total), Front level advanced tuck (1min total), Manna middle split horizontal hold "on the floor" (30 sec total)

Thursday: Repeat Monday's

Friday: Repeat Tuesday's

Though it might not seem much to the people here, keep in mind that I have been doing rings for about 7 months now and out of those only the last 4 count as "serious training". I don't know if this has been real good progress and I'm really pushing it, or maybe I should revamp my routine a little. Do you guys think I'm overtraining?

[Blairbob]

Ever hear of overtraining as under-recovery? Thursday and Friday is day 4 and 5, no wonder you're pooped; even if it's a lighter day.

Basically, Monday is all push, Tuesday is mostly pull, then some statics on Wednesday.

Hmm. Could just be too much for you, right now.

How's your sleep and food intake?

[braindx]

Experiment.

It's actually pretty hard to overtraining/overreach

BUT if it does happen then your performance will decrease often fairly substantially. If you can do 10 dips for instance and then a couple weeks later of hard work you can only do 8 then you're probably overreaching and should take a break.

If you were lifting weights and saw a 5% reduction on your squat/deadlift/etc. then that will tell you that you're overreaching. Same with decrease in vertical leap, etc.

You only get to know your limits if you push them. Obviously undertraining is not optimal, nor is overreaching... so you want to find out your limits so that you can work to your full capacity. You do this by experimenting

[Xavier]

Ever hear of overtraining as under-recovery? Thursday and Friday is day 4 and 5, no wonder you're pooped; even if it's a lighter day.

Basically, Monday is all push, Tuesday is mostly pull, then some statics on Wednesday.

Hmm. Could just be too much for you, right now.

How's your sleep and food intake?

I sleep 7 hours every night and consume about 3000 calories a day combined with almost a gallon of water daily.

[Blairbob]

Sounds like it's too much work for you right now.

Try taking wednesday off. If you still want to get the statics in, do them in the beginning of your M/Th, Tu/F workout.

[Joshua Naterman]

It does sound like you are crossing into the overtraining arena. Try to remember that it doesn't take as much work as people think to get a training effect! You are putting a lot of work in your week. Also, something that people seem to forget about is that the more weight you are moving, the more rest you are going to need. I don't know what you weigh or what your bf % is, but in my case I do most of my actual strength work one day a week. Now, I'm 225 at 6'2", so I am moving considerably more weight than most of the people here. I just know that I need more rest, because I am doing more damage in each workout than a lighter person doing the same movements!

For my size, I've found that having one or two days for strength work and one or two different days for dynamic work has done me the most good. So every friday I do my ring strength routines. Monday I do some strength work on the p-bars. I usually do one day of harness work on my rings which is half bodyweight, and that's muscleups, cross pulls, and planche/maltese work. Not too much either, just 2 sets usually. Then I have one day where I do swinging dips and yewkis combined with reverse yewkis. That's really it man! I work wall handstands 3-4 days a week, always a day in-between workouts at least, and I do random wide palms-out ring supports. My work capacity is steadily increasing, which means I am successfully adapting. I will keep this up until it just feels a bit too easy, and then increase to where it is challenging but not impossible. It's all about the small jumps!

I know that I would be way overtrained if I tried your workout. I'm probably bigger than you, but it certainly looks like you are just plain doing too much work. Try to remember that your body heals before it grows stronger. First it has to recover from what you've done to it, and only then will it grow stronger or bigger. If it doesn't have the time to do that, you're not going to get the results you want.

[braindx]

Also, I didn't really read it before but your volume is way too high.

If you're doing purely focused strength work you shouldn't have many reps per day.

Monday: Bulgarian dips (3X5), Archer pushups (3X5 each arm), Pseudo planche pushups (3X5), Wall Maltese (60sec total), Wall headstand (2min total).

Tuesday: One arm chinups 3X3 (5sec top and bottom hold each arm), L-sit Bulgarians pullups (30 total), Straight body raises (3X3), Bulgarian rows (3X10), Muscle ups 3X5 (kipping).

As you can see these are inordinate amounts of reps. A solid strength workout for one muscle "grouping" such as push or pull for strength work is often below 30 reps TOTAL for the whole workout. So like 10x3 of one exercise or say two sets of 3x5/5x3.

[Joshua Naterman]

True that. It's almost more of a HIT approach to bodybuilding than anything else.

[Xavier]

I feel that if I'm not a little bit sore the next day, then I didn't work out hard enough. I know resting has its benefits but so far I have been a little bit stubborn with trying to compel with the principles of the steady state, I was into bodybuilding before and I brought in a couple of bad habits when I crossed over to gymnastics. I noticed that I have been getting bulky (which to my knowledge shouldn't be happening),right now I'm 165 with a height of 5'10" and a bodyfat percentage of about 12%. But I'm gonna change my routine for a couple of weeks and if it gives me better results than the "Arnold approach" I will keep it like that.

Thanks for your advice.

[Joshua Naterman]

I know, I come from a similar background. The hardest thing for me was adjusting to a different way of thinking. I've studied many different protocols and they all have their merits. The steady state training definitely works for the gymnastics movements, it's kind of strange until you really stop and think about how you feel over the course of a few months. Then you start to see that what coach is saying really happens! It goes along with a lot of ideas about plateaus. There's a reason we plateau, and that is that the body realizes it needs to improve its structures before it tries more work. Usually athletic progress is measured in jumps every two or three months, not week by week. I think that this is a protective mechanism more than anything else, though it also has some construction background as well. Sounds silly, but hey... basically, when our bodies build new networks of capillaries,for example it takes 4-8 weeks to complete them. They don't actually have blood flowing through them until the new network is complete. That's why every so often you just wake up and think "... wasn't this a lot harder last time?" It's weird, but it makes sense (to me at least) that our bodies work that way. Nothing worse than putting cars on a road that isn't finished

There's no reason you shouldn't bulk up with gymnastics if you are structuring your workouts after a bodybuilding routine! Hell, I'm not doing that and my shoulders are still getting bigger!

[braindx]

Yeah, soreness doesn't mean anything

I'm rarely sore and getting stronger

[Joshua Naterman]

Yea, what soreness actually is is pretty cool! So when muscle proteins break down, they break down into amino acids. When you work out, you do damage, and the damaged proteins break down. If you damage enough proteins, you will have enough amino acids in the tissues to irritate your sensory nerve endings, and you will be sore. This is especially true of delayed onset soreness. This is when you have done so much damage that your body can't get rid of those amino acids faster than they are building up. Any severe soreness means you worked a bit too much. You can really minimize it with hot and cold showers, alternating hot and cold one minute at a time. You'll hate it, but you'll love how it makes you feel when it's all over.