HS/PE2>iM forever!

Keilani Gutierrez said:

how do you put your hands when you do a reverse plank? maybe doing a test of where you feel the tightness will shed some light on your weakpoint. I'm tight all over, so i felt it in my chest and my bicep. now i feel it more in my bicep. 

I think I feel this stretch the most in my anterior deltoid and the connection between the deltoid and bicep.

Murray Truelove said:

Can you do it with just the dowel? Try a lighter weight? I was using about half the weight used for IM:1.

I've been working with a ~3lbs load, since that is the stated minimum for the exercise. I don't know the length of the PVC I use at the gym, but even with my arms at the end (nearly straight out to my sides), I can't quite get parallel to the floor (close, though). I will try taking the weight off the PVC today and see how high I can get at full width.

Found a friend in the gym on thursday and roped him into taking some pictures!

Here's a (shoulder width) german hang to demonstrate passive flexibility:

But here is my best effort in HS/PE2<iM. I'm using an unweighted PVC pipe that reaches from the floor to my mid chest.

If I allow my elbows to turn inward (like in a dislocate), moving up to parallel at this width is easy:

Anything I might be missing?

Sorry for the triple post, but any thoughts or advice would be appreciated!

After 9 months of no progress with no discernible limitation, I'm a bit fed up with this iM. I'm planning to move forward in the progressions and dedicate 5 sets of work to this iM in my HS workouts.

Sorry I don't think I was clear in my question, when I asked if you do it with an empty dowel.

I was trying to identify whether it was a strength or a flexibility issue. For instance I can achieve the correct ROM with 2 lbs but if I put more than 5 lbs on the bar I lose a lot of ROM.

In your last photo it looks like you can achieve the right height and you only need to work on bringing your hands in over time but can you get that height with 3 lbs on the bar?

Finally how many times a week are you doing these and are you also following F1?

NoHiddenCosts said:

Sorry for the triple post, but any thoughts or advice would be appreciated!

 

After 9 months of no progress with no discernible limitation, I'm a bit fed up with this iM. I'm planning to move forward in the progressions and dedicate 5 sets of work to this iM in my HS workouts.

It took me about a year for it to "click". After that, progress has been really fast and soon I'll be able to do it at shoulder width. I think the reason why I don't get fed up like many do is twofold: 1) my criteria for succes is not based in achieving skills but rather on doing the best workout I currently can and 2) working out is something I do to be healthy, strong and be able to move freely; it's really hard to explain: it is a goal for me, but not one I strogly desire, yet I still work hard at it. Maybe someone can relate.

Also, use a bit of weight,1 kg or 1.25 kg. It helps, trust me.

Your patience is commendable Duff, but when a person has spent 9 months doing the same thing without any discernible progress, I think it's fair for them to seek a new approach.

As you say NHC, it seems that you have more than enough passive flexibility for this, just that you are not making any progress with the active component of it. I would guess it is a problem with activation, which is preventing you from building up the necessary strength; If you can't recruit a muscle, then you can't train it.

Perhaps try this:

- Assume the position Adriano demonstrates in his earlier post. Only use a small (or no) weight to begin with.

- Edge forward until the weight is no longer supported.

- Try to keep the bar in the same position, or at least lower it as slowly as possible.

Sometimes negatives can be better at establishing a connection between mind and muscle. I'm not sure why, it's just something I've noticed. If you feel your traps and posterior delts light up, you know you're on to something. Best of luck!

Note: Although I can't really see how you could injure yourself doing this, it may be safer to use a spotter on your first few attempts.

Thanks for your responses, everyone! 

Murray Truelove said:

I was trying to identify whether it was a strength or a flexibility issue. For instance I can achieve the correct ROM with 2 lbs but if I put more than 5 lbs on the bar I lose a lot of ROM.

 

In your last photo it looks like you can achieve the right height and you only need to work on bringing your hands in over time but can you get that height with 3 lbs on the bar?

Finally how many times a week are you doing these and are you also following F1?

I get about the same height for an empty PVC or with 3lbs... I'm guessing that although my shoulders can extend that far back with the pressure of my bodyweight pushing them (like in a german hang), my muscles are not strong enough to do so.

My last picture is a good height, yes. However, my elbows are turned outwards, which I understand to be improper for the shoulder flexion. If we were allowed to turn elbows out, I can get that high with 3lbs and much more narrow. I'd probably be done with this iM by next week!

I train F1 on the 3 day/week split (MWF) and H1 on Tues/Thurs.

Duff said:

It took me about a year for it to "click". After that, progress has been really fast and soon I'll be able to do it at shoulder width. I think the reason why I don't get fed up like many do is twofold: 1) my criteria for succes is not based in achieving skills but rather on doing the best workout I currently can and 2) working out is something I do to be healthy, strong and be able to move freely; it's really hard to explain: it is a goal for me, but not one I strogly desire, yet I still work hard at it. Maybe someone can relate.

 

Also, use a bit of weight,1 kg or 1.25 kg. It helps, trust me.

I admire your patience. I have also been patient in most regards (in Foundation), but for many reasons this particular element has been particularly trying.

I have indeed been training with weight, since that is deemed mandatory, but I photographed without weight at Murray's suggestion.

KibboKift said:

Your patience is commendable Duff, but when a person has spent 9 months doing the same thing without any discernible progress, I think it's fair for them to seek a new approach.

 

As you say NHC, it seems that you have more than enough passive flexibility for this, just that you are not making any progress with the active component of it. I would guess it is a problem with activation, which is preventing you from building up the necessary strength; If you can't recruit a muscle, then you can't train it.

 

Perhaps try this:

- Assume the position Adriano demonstrates in his earlier post. Only use a small (or no) weight to begin with.

- Edge forward until the weight is no longer supported.

- Try to keep the bar in the same position, or at least lower it as slowly as possible.

 

Sometimes negatives can be better at establishing a connection between mind and muscle. I'm not sure why, it's just something I've noticed. If you feel your traps and posterior delts light up, you know you're on to something. Best of luck!

 

Note: Although I can't really see how you could injure yourself doing this, it may be safer to use a spotter on your first few attempts.

I appreciate your understanding. And you may be right in regards to activation, but I do already feel pretty strong tension in my traps and posterior delts. A lot in my lateral delts too, though, since my grip is so wide...

I have actually tried this suggestion before. My arms just seem to kind of snap back down when my hands pass over the edge... So a negative doesn't really happen. Maybe I'll try it again today, though!

You could also scale this one down by lying on an incline or even on the floor.

Duff said:

You could also scale this one down by lying on an incline or even on the floor.

You reminded me that I CAN actually get the perpendicular angle at about shoulder width when I lie prone on the ground... Which is the real reason I knew flexibility is not my issue.

Yeah, I think I may start doing this on an incline bench and slowly raise the incline, although it is a bit harder to tell when I am achieving the proper angle.

Edit: I guess I HAVEN'T done this yet because I assume that following HS to the tee should in theory solve the issue. I assume that my ideas for something different are born of my inexperience and that I should just be following Coach Sommer's program... 

It seems it's a strength issue then. I'm not sure where the whole elbow pit thing came from, I can't remember Sommer actually saying it if anyone has a link? I don't worry about it.

I'd attack this like strength training, find a weight that you can do 5x5r at shoulder width, and be sure to do it at least 3 times a week. Every week up the weight a tiny bit.

Murray Truelove said:

It seems it's a strength issue then. I'm not sure where the whole elbow pit thing came from, I can't remember Sommer actually saying it if anyone has a link? I don't worry about it.

I think it started with this post: https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/14078-hspe2im-form-check/#entry138079

Personally, 'pits to the ground' definitely creates lift for me because of the muscles it activates in my back. As always though, not all cues work for all people.

OK so the idea that this is a strength issue and could be treated as such got me thinking....

I've decided to try an experiment where I increase the weight I can lift with a wider grip while continuing to work on decreasing the grip width.

I tried this the other day and lifted 4.25kg about 3 cm wider than my closest grip. My previous best was 0.5 kg. I then tried to increase the weight at my current grip limit and lifted 1.25kg. Again my previous best was 0.5 kg.

I figure that increasing the strength in this was may let me move my hands closest together as I'll be increasing the strength of the appropriate muscles and I've already proved I have the flexibility to achieve the ROM. I'll see if it works over the next month and let you know.

Cheers

Ben

I'm new to this iM and quite tight in my shoulders (dislocates almost touch my head). What do you think about practicing with a yoga strap instead of a bar? I like it because it reminds me to pull it apart, plus it travels very easily so I can practice more often (not just during workouts).

I figure I need to get more iM time than the workouts provide if I want to address my weaknesses in a reasonable amount of time. I respect the people who have spent 9+ months on this, but knowing myself, I want to get the mobility as soon as physically possible (while acknowledging realistic limits). I can get into position using a fixed bar so I think connective tissue is OK - it's more about the strength and muscle activation, which shouldn't take 270+ days (I hope).

Thoughts? Advice?

Damien

The traps need to be loaded using a weighted bar for these mobility exercises. A yoga strap will not suffice.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Sometimes I like visiting the forums just to see if other people are getting stuck in the same places I am : ). Thanks for sharing everyone, and good job you guys who have been persisting for months!

For the long-timers: what have you been doing opposite the iM? Have you been doing 5x60s headstand the entire time? I know the course guidelines -- don't move on -- but I've had mastery in HS/PE2 for ages. It's tedious, and not productive at this point... if you did other things, what did you do? 

I've started trying for 5x15r of touching my toes to the ground while in headstand (feet together, legs straight), and then unfolding back to headstand. 

@wamarler, I was on HS/PE2 for a while as well because of this iM, so I eventually bumped up to the forearm headstand, which I found acceptable since I had the flexion mobility for it and it is a very similar exercise, although more demanding of coordination.

However, after 9 months of no progress here, I've moved on to HS/PE5 (I mastered PE4, but again not the iM) and am working on this iM separately.

I think I will perhaps just start letting my elbow pits rotate outwards and progress the element like that, since no one yet has clearly swooped in and said "No, you mustn't do that!". Rotating my elbows also seems to activate my traps more, so that is promising!

Sounds like a plan. I think so long as you're not turning it into a dislocate you're fine.

So, in the time between my post and now, I've started aggressively stretching before trying the HS and iM elements. I put some tape on the stall bars so I could be consistent with width, and do 3 sets of 30-60s stretches. I start 3 rungs lower than ideal, and finish at ideal (which in my case is slightly higher than iM mastery, due to my height and the stall bar height). The first 2 sets serve as a bit of a warmup/limbering, while the last set I concentrate on staying upright, pulling my shoulderblades together and pulling my chest apart. I've noticed that when I do this that I can feel feedback that I don't get when I do the iM, and it was kind of an epiphany point. It's too soon to tell for sure, but it feels like the iM work is more effective.

I tried rotating my elbows around today both when stretching and when working the iM, but honestly ... I had hardly anything in the way of rotational ability when pushing the limits of my extension holding a rigid bar. So I don't really know that I understand what you're talking about there :-/.

NoHiddenCosts said:

... I think I will perhaps just start letting my elbow pits rotate outwards and progress the element like that, since no one yet has clearly swooped in and said "No, you mustn't do that!" ...

No, you mustn't do that.  

Do not use rotation in an attempt to fool yourself and disguise a lack of shoulder flexion.

You may include additional mobility elements in your training and you may 'playfully' include some of the more advanced PEs in the last 5-10min of your training; however do not move on to serious focused training on the more advanced PEs until you have earned the right to do so.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer, thank you very much for your clarification.

If would be so kind, I would appreciate quick confirmation on two things:

1. You said "Do not use rotation in an attempt to fool yourself and disguise a lack of shoulder FLEXION", but did you mean extension in this case?

2. If so, then when doing shoulder extensions, we MUST keep our elbow pits facing the ground?

3. If this is also so, why do people (like Jon Douglas) feel massive tension in the biceps on this exercise? I only feel activation in my biceps and traps with elbow pits facing out, otherwise I think I only really feel it in my triceps.

If this is the case, do you have any advice for my situation? Though my passive extension mobility is good, I have been working this element for almost a year now and have made no discernable progress (with elbow pits facing down). I have no face to face access to a coach who is familiar with this element, and though I am planning to reach the Denver seminar next summer, that is a while from now. Shall I just continue spinning my wheels for another 7 months?

I have not read the previous pages of this thread, but my two cents:

I think Coach did mean extension, probably some mix up because this question does get asked a lot for both im1 and im2. I think the point coach is trying to make is for you to just concentrate on moving the arms straight back. There is the possibility of ending up internally rotating by focusing on the elbow pits rotating down. Feel the shoulder extend straight back, make sure the shoulder is not rotating, and stop worrying about the elbow, in my opinion.

I am also one of those people with massive tension in the bicep tendon. I don't know, elbow might supinate a bit, but the shoulder stay straight put with no rotation. It's the same deal with reverse planks, extension but people often feel a stretch/tension/whatever in the bicep. The forearm and shoulder are two separate actions, and I think you must remember this is a shoulder exercise.

Micawberian said:

make sure the shoulder is not rotating, and stop worrying about the elbow, in my opinion.

 

I don't think you can separate the shoulder from the elbow like that. If the elbow is rotating, so is the shoulder. Coach specifically said not to let the elbows rotate. If you keep your elbows from rotating, you can be sure that your shoulders are in the correct position.

I also felt that the elbow cannot rotate without the shoulder. They are directly linked... literally. So focusing on elbows actually seems to be the best way to tell whether or not you are rotating the shoulder. How else could you possibly tell? 

Others have also said "don't worry about the elbows", but when I didn't worry about the elbows they faced outwards, and I was told I was doing it wrong.

Also, if what thecolin says is true, then it is likely Jon (who is a model GB trainee to me) was rotating his shoulders on this exercise, as suggested by his posts on bicep growth in this thread: https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/13205-need-help-with-hs-pe2im/. So that adds to my confusion.

My question still stands. I am at an absolute loss with this exercise. I couldn't even complete my H1 workout today because at this point I have no idea what to do.

EDIT: again for reference, here is a video of the form I originally used (not worrying about elbows). I feel it in my biceps, and traps. It has progressed somewhat over time, but seems to be wrong. In contrast, keeping my elbow pits down (the only way I know to ensure my shoulders are not rotating) seems to only burn my triceps, and has yielded no progress over almost a year now.

definitely walk the hands closer to shoulder width, if you're having this kind of issue. i think you have a shot at having the required degree of extension or just about. don't worry about getting there to begin with once you make a bump in weight from 3-5lb upto 8-10lb, you still go back to the beginning. -_-; 

I can raise 3lb perfectly, 5lb could use some extra degrees in extension and 8lb, don't even ask. it's at 45degrees. 

give 3-5lb a shot with shoulder width and film another video, if you like. 

NoHiddenCosts said:

 

...seems to only burn my triceps, and has yielded no progress over almost a year now.

The reason that I like the elbow cue is because it activates the muscles in my upper back. It seems to me that the main focus of the early elements is to strengthen and mobilize that area, so it seemed logical to continue in that way. I suppose it could be primarily to stretch the biceps, but if it's just a partial dislocate movement it seems rather redundant to me. There's lots of time to get frustrated with underhand dislocates later on. 

Perhaps the fact that you can't feel your upper back working is what's holding you back. It's hard to strengthen a muscle when you can't consciously activate it.

What other cues do you use along with the elbows? Have you posted another video of this element without the shoulder rotation?