HS/PE2>iM forever!

thecolin said:

The reason that I like the elbow cue is because it activates the muscles in my upper back. It seems to me that the main focus of the early elements is to strengthen and mobilize that area, so it seemed logical to continue in that way. I suppose it could be primarily to stretch the biceps, but if it's just a partial dislocate movement it seems rather redundant to me. There's lots of time to get frustrated with underhand dislocates later on. 

 

Perhaps the fact that you can't feel your upper back working is what's holding you back. It's hard to strengthen a muscle when you can't consciously activate it.

 

What other cues do you use along with the elbows? Have you posted another video of this element without the shoulder rotation?

Wow, focussing on the use of the upper back after retracting changes this exercise completely for me. Lifting the bar is so easy now. I will probably not master this exercise, since there is still some tension in the biceps and the front of the shoulder/chest are (though a lot less than when I do not use the upper back), but I think strength will not be the main issue now...

Awesome, I hope it speeds you along towards mastery.

Alright, here is an updated video of both. For the first half, I show the extension with elbows outward, and at 45s I try again with elbows downward. The bar+weight I'm using totals 5lbs, and I am trying my darndest to activate anything. I'm putting a lot of effort into activating my upper back there, but I still only feel the burn in my triceps, really. Now after the fact I feel just a bit tender in my traps.

I tried doing the same as the second half with a weightless towel, same length, and got maybe an inch higher with my hands. I tried doing it yet again with a long scarf so I could widen my arms more, but when I do that, it is hard to keep track of my shoulder rotation. When my grip is too wide, it feels more like an exercise in internal rotation while trying to prevent the dislocate.

Edit: Keilani, were you suggesting that I keep my hands at shoulder width while working this exercise? I favor that I idea, since the wider I go, the less I feel I can activate the proper muscles.

I tried these again today after my workout. I wanted to play with the weight to see if I got any triceps activation, and for me it's really all in the upper back. I got up to a 12kg bar, though I didn't get full extension at the top, my triceps were barely firing.

Instead of trying to lift your arms, try to think about extending your arms straight behind you without dislocating. At the same time pull your shoulders back and down almost like the top of a row or pull-up. This may sound completely counter intuitive, but give it a try. Keep extending behind you and lift your chest, but don't arch your back, keep your tail tucked (ppt). Perhaps you're already trying to do this, but from looking at your video, it doesn't look like it to me.

If you can get a feel for that position, even if your form isn't perfect, hopefully you'll get more upper back activation and possibly a bit of a stretch in that area. If you can do that, stay there and try to develop that sensation.

That's the cue I've been using, and for me it activates the exact same part of my back I feel during my headstand/wall handstand work. I've found that developing this sensation is essential for later elements like PE5. If you can't lift with your upper back, then I can almost guarantee you can't do PE5 without turning it into a weighted ABH.

thecolin, I tried your cues today in my H1 workout, and it definitely helped change the focus from my triceps to my upper back. I can feel the retraction a lot more now. I think I was focusing on the height of my hands before, so I was probably focusing on extending from my elbow too much (causing the tricep activation). Thank you for your suggestion! (I did know about keeping the ppt/hollow body position with chest up, but forgot to maintain it in my above video--sorry)

Unfortunately this cue did not help with my ROM at all. Since this is a bit different from what I have been doing, I will try this and continue stretching for a while to see if I start finally making some progress. Should I still start with my hands as wide as possible, or should I start with hands at shoulder width?

Also, what has been the most effective stretch for those who have been making progress on this element? I have tried the sitting-floor extension stretch (which seems to stretch my elbow more than my target, the anterior deltoid), I have tried weighted extension pulls (also a bit much on the elbow and sometimes the lower back), and I have tried german hangs (these seem to concentrate the most on my shoulder, but for some reason I've heard these aren't effective for building extension mobility).

NoHiddenCosts said:

Should I still start with my hands as wide as possible, or should I start with hands at shoulder width?

 

I'd focus on the position where you can feel a stronger pull from your upper back and better ROM. Try working at the edge where your ROM starts to suffer and try to improve it by slowly moving the hands in.

NoHiddenCosts said:

 

Also, what has been the most effective stretch for those who have been making progress on this element?

Your chest and pec minor is generally a good place to start.

You'll actually want to keep your stretched out arm above your head, at about 45 degrees relative to your body, but keep your shoulder pressed into the floor. Make sure your arm stays high relative to your body when you start to roll over, if you're tight here, it's easy to pike as you roll and lose position. Don't think about just rolling over, think about trying to rotate your rib cage relative to your shoulder. You can do some PNF contractions by pressing into the floor as you try to work deeper. You can work this with palm on the floor, palm up. And once you're fully stretched out you can try making a fist (from the palm up position) bending  your wrist to 90 degrees and trying to twist your arm into deeper rotation.

Raised bridges (bridge position with your feet raised) are also good for shoulder extension if you can concentrate the stretch into your upper back and shoulders with locked arms (as opposed to just feeling it in your lower back). You can also try doing a passive back bend on the floor over a support to try and mobilize your upper back. I do these every day over the arm of my couch.

thecolin said:

I'd focus on the position where you can feel a stronger pull from your upper back and better ROM. Try working at the edge where your ROM starts to suffer and try to improve it by slowly moving the hands in.

 

 

 

 

Your chest and pec minor is generally a good place to start.

 

 

You'll actually want to keep your stretched out arm above your head, at about 45 degrees relative to your body, but keep your shoulder pressed into the floor. Make sure your arm stays high relative to your body when you start to roll over, if you're tight here, it's easy to pike as you roll and lose position. Don't think about just rolling over, think about trying to rotate your rib cage relative to your shoulder. You can do some PNF contractions by pressing into the floor as you try to work deeper. You can work this with palm on the floor, palm up. And once you're fully stretched out you can try making a fist (from the palm up position) bending  your wrist to 90 degrees and trying to twist your arm into deeper rotation.

 

Raised bridges (bridge position with your feet raised) are also good for shoulder extension if you can concentrate the stretch into your upper back and shoulders with locked arms (as opposed to just feeling it in your lower back). You can also try doing a passive back bend on the floor over a support to try and mobilize your upper back. I do these every day over the arm of my couch.

I have been getting some good results using some elastic band work and assisted (standing) german hangs for warming up and doing this pec/biceps stretch and some other stretches for the thoracic spine after the h1 session. It took about a month before I really started noticing the improvement.

Thank you for the suggestions, guys!

Do bridges actually help extension mobility? I thought they were more for flexion. Regardless, I have been doing these as well after every workout. Is there a certain benefit of the raised version over the normal?

I have also been doing the pec stretch after every workout, though my arm wasn't quite at 45 degrees nor have I tried the palm-up variation. I will integrate this into my stretching from now on.

I think what you're doing starting at 0:49 is what you're supposed to be doing. It "looks right" to me. Can others confirm? Basically the strain I'm seeing in your video is the strain I experience.

For me, two things have been helping me feel like I'm progressing over the last few weeks:

1) I reduced weight. I had been trying a wooden dowel with a 5lb weight. I dropped from a 5lb weight to 3.75lbs. Not only could I get my hands closer to shoulder width, I could get better extension when I did. With only a 1.25lbs change.

2) The "baby German hangs" in a video in an earlier post in this thread. But not just as a passive stretch: I actively try to pull my shoulders back, together, and down while in the stretch. 

NoHiddenCosts said:

Thank you for the suggestions, guys!

 

Do bridges actually help extension mobility? I thought they were more for flexion. Regardless, I have been doing these as well after every workout. Is there a certain benefit of the raised version over the normal?

 

I have also been doing the pec stretch after every workout, though my arm wasn't quite at 45 degrees nor have I tried the palm-up variation. I will integrate this into my stretching from now on.

I think bridges are more for extension in the shoulders like you said, but it's also good for the upper back which might be helpful here. I find doing them raised helps me move the stretch more into my upper back and shoulders. With my feet raised I find it easier to push into the stretch with my legs without just arching my lower back.

45 degrees is a good place to start, otherwise find the angle that you really don't like, and work on that.

As opposed to the german hang, you could also try something similar on the stall bars. Kneel on the ground facing away from the bars, reach up behind you with your palms facing down and grab the bar, then try to sink into the stretch while lifting your chest. Gradually trying to grab a higher bar with a narrower grip over time. I like this variation as opposed to a free hang because it allows me to push off and get a deep stretch, as well as play with the rotation of my arms. Free hanging, especially on rings lets your body settle into it's most comfortable position, a fixed bar allows you to find the tight spots and work them.

Awesome info here. A gold mine.

I can't even do this iM to where my arms are making a 45 degree angle in relation to the ground. I can lift them maybe 30 degrees and that's focusing and trying as absolutely hard as I can.  

Anyone else struggling with this...I can't imagine having any less mobility with it than I do, so you're not alone. Time to get to work!

Use this mini routine as your warmup for days you practice FL, sPL, HBP, RC, HS progressions.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1YHIV4a81Os

I used this prior to buying foundaction and handstand one. It's no replacement for foundation/HS1 progressions but it will offer you steadier progress through the mobility aspects of both courses in regards to shoulders. Just use that routine as warmup and maybe a wall stretch for the biceps then go into your workout. Your shoulders may be a bit more fatigued starting out tho, but they adapt quickly to the new ROM

When using the upper back muscles I managed to slowly pull my arms up with my hands at shoulder width + 1 hand for about 5 seconds. The reason why I got out early is because the strain in front of the shoulder became quite large and I was not sure whether I was risking injury. Considering this post ( https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/13907-dislocation-injury-risk/?p=136633) discomfort should be expected, however I find it hard to distinguish large amount of discomfort from slight pain. I think I will just play it safe and increase the width. Does anyone have any advice about this border between discomfort and pain apart from err on the side of caution?

So I decided to do this one while lying on the floor after sifting through these posts again and seeing someone mention it as a 'scaled down' version.

It's extremely difficult for me, and I can't even get parallel while lying on the floor. And I notice my triceps burn quite a bit during the exercise too.  Not sure if that's because they're being activated instead of the muscles that *should* be being activated, do a lack of mobility.

I'm going to be doing some of the recommended stretches here and practicing this iM while lying down. Seems much more productive to me in my case, where I can't even lift the bar 30 degrees while I'm standing up no matter how hard I try. My goal is to be able to do this iM on the floor first with full ROM, and then take it from there. 

I've decided to try and gain range of motion without using weight while still working with weight further out. I've found that I can feel the appropriate muscles working without the weight as if the resistance from my lack of flexibility is providing the resistance. I've already made significant inroads to my ROM.

I'll let you know how I go.

Cheers

Ben

Since finding this thread and posting to it, I've progressed to where I think I'm about one microcycle away from mastery. I can actually do 5 sets of 10s now, but I'm not quite as smooth getting into position as the athlete in the demo, and I feel like I push my head/neck forward a bit.

This is what helped me the most over the last few weeks: 

1) Dropping weight from 5lbs to 3.5lbs. It doesn't seem like a lot, but this enabled me to feel some subtleties in the technique that I couldn't feel with the greater weight. 

2) Working the "mini german hangs" video posted earlier in this thread. I had been stretching with the stall bars, but that doesn't pull the arms backwards nearly as much as the mini german hangs do. As I worked the mini german hangs, I realized my arms could extend behind me further than I thought -- further than I could push them with my own muscle power. Over time, this improved, and got me past where I had been stuck. 

Hope that helps someone. 

Regarding scapular position of this movement: Coach Sommer confirmed on reddit today that you want depression and retraction: http://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/comments/2tknnm/coach_sommer_ama/co0eq1n?context=3

Thanks Joshua. I've sort of figured out through experience that focusing on depression and retraction helps a lot (as per my previous posts) but official confirmation is always a good kick in the pants to keep at it!

So do the elbow pits need to face downward? I thought we wanted external rotation in this exercise?

vannybute said:

So do the elbow pits need to face downward? I thought we wanted external rotation in this exercise?

I thought that elbow pits facing down means an internally rotated shoulder, but if they are facing awa from each other then that are externally rotated? Professional advice would certainly help with the confusion for this exercise

On 1/11/2015 at 0:13 PM, William Marler said:

2) Working the "mini german hangs" video posted earlier in this thread. I had been stretching with the stall bars, but that doesn't pull the arms backwards nearly as much as the mini german hangs do. As I worked the mini german hangs, I realized my arms could extend behind me further than I thought -- further than I could push them with my own muscle power. Over time, this improved, and got me past where I had been stuck. 

 

Hope that helps someone. 

Hey @William Marler. Can you say how often you worked the "mini german hangs"...how many days a week, reps sets? I want to work as hard as I can on this, but don't want to over do it either.

1 hour ago, Kenneth Stainback said:

Hey @William Marler. Can you say how often you worked the "mini german hangs"...how many days a week, reps sets? I want to work as hard as I can on this, but don't want to over do it either.

Nope! Looks like you're quoting me from > 2 years ago. I have no recollection of what I was talking about. I was never able to complete 5x15r pushups as prescribed by GB. 

Oh wow, I totally replied too quickly and conflated HS/PE2>iM with HBP/PE2. My bad.

I still have no idea what my set/rep scheme was. This is mobility though, and connective tissue adaptations are different from musculature. I suggest reading through https://www.reddit.com/r/flexibility/, there is a ton of accumulated expertise there. I think I remember from that that working at light intensity every day is highly effective. Individuals vary though, and you will have to self-experiment. Take notes & be consistent, and analyze your progress over time.