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Started by Ravn, March 11, 2014 · 82 Replies · 2,828 Views
Ravn, good luck on mastering HBP/PE16 !
I don't know if doing them under 8minutes is necessary or not but it seems like a good challenge.
I just passed HBP/PE15 and when I tested PE16 I realised that balance was a big issue for me as well. I will probably follow your path and be stuck on this for a while.
I am still at HS/PE5 due to lack of shoulder mobility and thinking that I will have to wait that my HS catches up with my HBP is... demoralizing 
Given the time you spent on these and that you did it on the floor while you could have done it on the wall, I don't think that 8 minute challenge is really worth the effort, especially because you're doing negatives and you can't exactly compress sets after a certain point unless you're doing them quickly.
Still, kudos for mastery!
Great job Ravn! That's a big step.
For mr. Brator I would suggest just doing these on the wall until your handstand catches up. You will at least gain strength that way while you wait.
MrBrator said:I just passed HBP/PE15 and when I tested PE16 I realised that balance was a big issue for me as well. I will probably follow your path and be stuck on this for a while.
I am still at HS/PE5 due to lack of shoulder mobility and thinking that I will have to wait that my HS catches up with my HBP is... demoralizing
Hmm, balance wasn't really my issue, as I had a decent, though far from perfect handstand one year ago. The problem was that my shoulder stabilizers and traps would turn to jelly 5-6 reps into the workout, and that made it impossible to get into a straight stacked handstand.
My approach was to build up to 4x3 reps, as I thought a certain volume was needed to make my brain learn the movement. Initially it took me perhaps 20-25 minutes to execute those 12 combined reps, but that didn't matter. I just focused on bringing down the time needed to finish the exercise. So, when I got to 8 minutes for 4x3, I increased the volume to 4x4 and then worked to bring the time down to 8 minutes once more, and so on and so forth. It has been working pretty well for me, because my focus has been on performing the same work faster, ultimately leading to increased work capacity.
I am pretty sure that 5x5 would have taken me perhaps 45 minutes one year ago, if at all possible, so in that perspective, I have moved forward a great deal.
PS: Brator, as you can tell, i'm not far ahead of you in H1, so that may not *necessarily* be a stumbling block for you. You're going to have to move away from the wall at some point.
I would recommend going to PE17 asap. You don't want to do neg's for too long as you won't gain alot of strength.
I can do loads of negs. My problem is stacking the shoulders when pressing back into HS. I can't get more than 3 reps with proper form because of this, I just cannot open the shoulders again.
Also for those doing PE16 on the wall: You will never have proper alignment, as in order to maintain straight body and keep elbows in, you will need to introduce some degree of tilt. On the wall you cannot do this obviously, and you will compensate using an arched back and flaring elbows.
Personally, I built up to 5x5 wall HeSPU and then moved over to wall HSPU and freestanding HeSPU. I think it is always better having excessive strength so you can focus on balance and body positioning.
J0X said:I would recommend going to PE17 asap. You don't want to do neg's for too long as you won't gain alot of strength.
I can do loads of negs. My problem is stacking the shoulders when pressing back into HS. I can't get more than 3 reps with proper form because of this, I just cannot open the shoulders again.
Also for those doing PE16 on the wall: You will never have proper alignment, as in order to maintain straight body and keep elbows in, you will need to introduce some degree of tilt. On the wall you cannot do this obviously, and you will compensate using an arched back and flaring elbows.
Personally, I built up to 5x5 wall HeSPU and then moved over to wall HSPU and freestanding HeSPU. I think it is always better having excessive strength so you can focus on balance and body positioning.
Asides from the negatives, I have been using assistance exercises at the end of each HBP session this past year:
-Freestanding HeSPU, just to begin learning the movement (3-4 good reps total).
-3x5 wall HeSPU
-1x10 PPP
I agree that the negatives probably don't produce huge amounts of strength on their own.
Another HUGE thing: Instead of looking at my thumbs when in handstand, I look at the horizon instead, to deliberately avoid arching in the back. That tends to straighten out the back, which has been difficult for me in the past.
Ravn said:Hmm, balance wasn't really my issue, as I had a decent, though far from perfect handstand one year ago. The problem was that my shoulder stabilizers and traps would turn to jelly 5-6 reps into the workout, and that made it impossible to get into a straight stacked handstand.
My approach was to build up to 4x3 reps, as I thought a certain volume was needed to make my brain learn the movement. Initially it took me perhaps 20-25 minutes to execute those 12 combined reps, but that didn't matter. I just focused on bringing down the time needed to finish the exercise. So, when I got to 8 minutes for 4x3, I increased the volume to 4x4 and then worked to bring the time down to 8 minutes once more, and so on and so forth. It has been working pretty well for me, because my focus has been on performing the same work faster, ultimately leading to increased work capacity.
I am pretty sure that 5x5 would have taken me perhaps 45 minutes one year ago, if at all possible, so in that perspective, I have moved forward a great deal.
PS: Brator, as you can tell, i'm not far ahead of you in H1, so that may not *necessarily* be a stumbling block for you. You're going to have to move away from the wall at some point.
Clever approach, Ravn. Well done.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
What about using stomach to wall instead of back to the wall for the HeSPU ?
chuchodani said:What about using stomach to wall instead of back to the wall for the HeSPU ?
No.
As beginners this will cause you to excessively arch.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
Coach Sommer said:No.
As beginners this will cause you to excessively arch.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
Thank you Coach !
Coach Sommer said:No.
As beginners this will cause you to excessively arch.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
100% this. Back to wall works much better, and as you get more proficient, you can scissor your legs, so one is on the wall, and the other is in HeSPU position. This mimic the mechanics and loading pretty well.
You absolutely want to avoid arching in the back when learning this movement. It takes more strength to not arch, and it is a habit which is very hard to unlearn, since you more or less have to start from scratch.
Ravn said:100% this. Back to wall works much better, and as you get more proficient, you can scissor your legs, so one is on the wall, and the other is in HeSPU position. This mimic the mechanics and loading pretty well.
You absolutely want to avoid arching in the back when learning this movement. It takes more strength to not arch, and it is a habit which is very hard to unlearn, since you more or less have to start from scratch.
Interesting information ! And what about distance ? With the back to the wall, how far your hands needs to be from the wall in order to do the exercise in an appropriate way ? Thanks
I place my fingertips about 1 1/2 hand length from the wall, as this allows the head to travel forward during descent.
Coach Sommer said:No.
As beginners this will cause you to excessively arch.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
but what about people with a decent line in their handstand? for me it looks like the version with the stomach-to-the-wall does not really imitate the freestanding negatives or freestanding heSPUs very well because the placement of the hands and the flaring of the elbows is so much different.
DieKatze said:but what about people with a decent line in their handstand? for me it looks like the version with the stomach-to-the-wall does not really imitate the freestanding negatives or freestanding heSPUs very well because the placement of the hands and the flaring of the elbows is so much different.
could someone elaborate on that? i am working on the negatives now (stomach to wall to enable the aforementioned tilt) and seeing some quick progress. i am trying to work on wall and free standing negatives simultaneously by shifting as much weight as possible towards my hand and try to let my feet just really slighlty brush the wall. do yu think that is a good approach? i am now, after only a few sessions in, able to control the lowest 10cm freestanding.
btw: that exercise gave me the worst triceps and shoulder DOMS ever 
Ravn said:Ok, being dissatisfied with my balancing performance during Negative HeSPU, I decided to cut down on the warmup.
Today I did 5 pushups, 5 Xiaopengs, 5 PPP, 5 reverse Xiaopengs as warmup (plus all the planche sets). Then I did 3x2 Negative freestanding HeSPU with very little rest and only two failed attempts. Then I did wall negative HeSPU for 3x3, and ended with 11 PPP and 10 PB dips for assistance work.
This worked much better, and balancing was a lot easier than with a heavier warmup.
What do you mean by assistance work Ravn?
It seems like you have more volume here than the standard...Is it OK? I find my body responds better to a little more volume.
I'm working to build my negatives against the wall up to 8 secs currently...Do you think it's OK to do x1 full HeSPU before I do negatives for each set? I feel like if I don't keep it then I ll lose it 
DonGray said:What do you mean by assistance work Ravn?
It seems like you have more volume here than the standard...Is it OK? I find my body responds better to a little more volume.
I'm working to build my negatives against the wall up to 8 secs currently...Do you think it's OK to do x1 full HeSPU before I do negatives for each set? I feel like if I don't keep it then I ll lose it
I come from a climbing background, so I am much stronger in pulling than in pushing exercises. Hence I am putting somewhat more emphasis on the pushing work, in order to catch up.
I found that doing a the freestanding negatives were good for balance/skill, but that I needed more volume to also improve my strength. On average, I think I have spent 2-2.5x as much time on the HBP than on the other elements, and I like it.
Just to clarify, for assistance work in relation to negative HeSPU, I did this, after the main work sets:
2-3 freestanding HeSPU, just to learn the movement and prepare for the next exercise.
3 sets of 3-7 wall HeSPU, depending on how I felt.
10 PPP
Sometimes a max set of pushups.
I was just thinking this looks like a possible template from the old WOD's that used to be published on here
5 months later and I'm still working on negatives - have got them up to 10sec negatives now against the wall - slowly slowly!!!
UPDATE:
So the negative HeSPU took me about a year to master. Been on HBP17, freestanding HeSPU since early spring, I believe.
I've been doing singles for a looong, long time, not being able to actually get multiple good reps. I even worked HBP17 singles after I was done with my HBP16 work sets, beginning roughly 21 months ago.
However, for the past two months or so, I have seen rapid improvement almost from one workout to another, to the point where I got 17 good reps + 2 bad ones + mobility in 9 minutes. This also has a bit to do with changing my routine, I think. I now start the workout by doing HBP17 (BIG difference), and then later I do HBP18 for assistance work.
Yesterday's sets and reps:
ggggg
m
gb gg g
m
ggg g
m
gg g g
m
g = good rep, no spaces indicate consecutive reps.
b = bad rep
m = mobility
I'm so stoked right now, it's unbelievable!
I can actually imagine mastery of this element in ~6 months, which is huge as it has been a goal of mine for years.
Well done my man 
grats, yeah lots of people forget that to train this productively you need a surplus in pushing strength, against the wall 5x10 should be doable before seriously starting freestanding. You need dat volume when developing a skill ;D
Don't know if 5x10 is a prerequisite, but it certainly won't hurt. My progress with this is due to two factors, I think.
One, always pushing to finish the reps as quickly as possible, and two, being quite aggressive with assistance work.
Great to hear your update Ravn! So you're still pushing yourself to not have any rest between sets other than mobility?
DonGray said:Great to hear your update Ravn! So you're still pushing yourself to not have any rest between sets other than mobility?
Yup, but I get a bit of rest between the singles too. Focus is still on finishing the work as fast as possible.