hip flexors vs abs

[Katharina Huemer]

My goals are some L-hangs to V's on bars, V-Sits for some secs and Press Handstands.


I do a full body routine 3 times a week, which takes about 70 mins in total.
10 mins warm-up and prehab
20 mins legs
15 mins arms
15 mins L-sits
10 mins stretch

For L-sits I do:

3x3 L-Sits as  long as possible
3x3 V-Sits as long as possible (tucked)
3x3 V-Sits as long as possible (1 leg out) each leg
3x  twisting from side to side in an L-Sit.

So, that's obviously not very much, at least my abs don't really feel exhausted after that compared to my legs or arms! And I guess this won't really help me with leg raises. But I don't know how to integrate my usual ab routine to this plan?

For abs I used to do 10-12 minutes really super intense exercises without any breaks (hollow body rocks, planks, crunches etc, I vary this from time to time.) 
Then I did some V-Ups till failure.

After that, I did 
3x20 hanging leg raises (as high as possible)
3x20 hanging knee raises
3x L-Hang as long as possible

I wanted to continue with this, until I could make all 20 leg lifts completely up to the bar. Then I wanted to go for them with ankle weights or try on stall bars.

Will all together be to much for 3 days a week?
Should I do hip flexors on one day (L-sits and leg raises) and abs on the other (hollow body rocks, crunches...)? So 6 days a week?

If my abs feel a little weak due to the work out the day before, is it better to rest them or to train over the "tiredness" of the muscle so that it gets more stimulated and grows faster?
 

[Connor Davies]

First of all, don't worry about crunches.  At best they're a weaker version of a hollow hold.  Planks as well, I view them these days as shoulder training more than core training.  Doing them on one arm can work your obliques quite nicely, but that wont help you with V sits.

 

The thing is that all of your stated goals involve compression, rather than strength in the stretched position.  So hollow rocks are nice (and body levers are even better) but you really need to be working on building up strength in the end of your ROM.

 

Personally I like L hangs because you can hold them after you lose compression, but that's the opposite of what you're looking for here.  (There's also some stuff about integrating lat and core activation, but we'll ignore that for now).

 

If you can hold a good L sit on the floor, by all means work that as a priority.  I can't get much good work out of them because I lose compression, but if you can hold them for a decent amount of time you can really get some good work in there.  Make sure you keep your palms flat on the floor.

 

There's 2 types of L sits.  The 'advanced' version requires you to keep your hips underneath your hands, but letting your hips sink further behind your hands requires you to improve your compression, so either one would be good for you.  Obviously to improve further to middle split hold you will need to master the advanced version.

 

You need to hit compression with both static and dynamic work, so follow your L sits with your hanging leg raises.  Do them on stall bars or get someone to support your back, but avoiding leaning back or pulling with your back during the raise is important.

 

Apart from both of these, you need to work active compression from an easier position.  Seated leg lifts are great for this.  I would probably suggest doing these during your warmup.

 

Apart from building up the active strength to pull into the position, you need to build the passive flexibility to reach the position in the first place.  Obviously I would need more details about your current stretching routine before I gave any real advice on this, but mastering the pancake should be your priority if you haven't already.

 

At their most basic press handstands require more lower back strength than ab strength.  This line blurs somewhat once you start working on L press handstands and above, but the point is you won't build up enough strength with hanging leg lifts.

 

You need reverse leg lifts.

 

You can do them with your lower body hanging off the edge of something at first if you really need to, but you should aim to start them from a headstand position.  Once you get decent at that, you can work them from a handstand position against a wall.  Then you're pretty much there.

 

Don't worry so much about hip flexor vs abs strength.  It's pretty hard to isolate one vs the other, and it's non-functional to do so.  If you're working one hard, you're working the other hard too.  Remember, it's all about compression.  That's what's going to get you where you want to go.

 

And don't train your core every day.  Train it hard enough, and you'll need a day off.  Trust me.

 

And finally, here's something a little bit more badass than L-V hanging leg lifts:

 

[ForzaCavaliere]

Sounds like you do a lot of work for your abs lol. 

 

If I understand it correctly, I don't think you're getting enough rest to develop enough strength as opposed to endurance. 

 

You say you did 15 mins of L-Sits, which consists of 

"3x3 L-Sits as  long as possible

3x3 V-Sits as long as possible (tucked)
3x3 V-Sits as long as possible (1 leg out) each leg
3x  twisting from side to side in an L-Sit." 

 

Which equates to 3x3+3x3+3x3+3 = 30 reps of L-related-holds, each to failure ("as long as possible"), in 15 minutes!?!?!? Do you rest for like, 0 seconds or something?

 

If you go to failure, you need a lot of rest. Going to failure is quite taxing on the nervous system, which would take more time to recover than not pushing to failure each set. Considering every hold goes to failure, and you do that 30 times per training session (in addition to whatever else you're training since you say you're doing full body workout), and you do that 3 times per week, I wonder how long you've been training this for and if you've made a lot of progress? In my opinion, this sounds like overtraining, but if you've been seeing results then I guess you should continue.

 

I don't think you need to include 2 sets of workouts per day for your abs (you mentioned incorporating another ab workout in). Concentrate on 1 or 2 exercises and master them, and once that's done you move onto the next 1 or 2 (harder) exercises. 

 

If your arms are exhausted (from L and V-sits), but your compression is not tired, you can continue with compression based exercises without using the arms (like drop sets). Just sit down with your legs together straight in front of you, put your hands next to your knees and lift and hold your legs as high as possible for time. 

[Katharina Huemer]

Sounds like you do a lot of work for your abs lol.

If I understand it correctly, I don't think you're getting enough rest to develop enough strength as opposed to endurance.

You say you did 15 mins of L-Sits, which consists of

"3x3 L-Sits as long as possible

3x3 V-Sits as long as possible (tucked)

3x3 V-Sits as long as possible (1 leg out) each leg

3x twisting from side to side in an L-Sit."

Which equates to 3x3+3x3+3x3+3 = 30 reps of L-related-holds, each to failure ("as long as possible"), in 15 minutes!?!?!? Do you rest for like, 0 seconds or something?

If you go to failure, you need a lot of rest. Going to failure is quite taxing on the nervous system, which would take more time to recover than not pushing to failure each set. Considering every hold goes to failure, and you do that 30 times per training session (in addition to whatever else you're training since you say you're doing full body workout), and you do that 3 times per week, I wonder how long you've been training this for and if you've made a lot of progress? In my opinion, this sounds like overtraining, but if you've been seeing results then I guess you should continue.

I don't think you need to include 2 sets of workouts per day for your abs (you mentioned incorporating another ab workout in). Concentrate on 1 or 2 exercises and master them, and once that's done you move onto the next 1 or 2 (harder) exercises.

If your arms are exhausted (from L and V-sits), but your compression is not tired, you can continue with compression based exercises without using the arms (like drop sets). Just sit down with your legs together straight in front of you, put your hands next to your knees and lift and hold your legs as high as possible for time.

Thanks to both of you for the great advices!

I can just hold an L-Sit for about 20 secs and V-Sit not even 10, so that's why I don't need that much time!

I will now do this L-Sit thing + 10 mins of planks, V-Ups and hollow body rocks till I can't do one good V-Up anymore. Then I rest and do some handstands or smth and then go to the bar and do the leg raise thing. I do this only 3 times a week.

one more question:

when I do the leg raises on stall bars, I don't have full strength due to the prior workout. Will this hinder the progress?

Is working out "tired" muscles worse?

[Katharina Huemer]

First of all, don't worry about crunches. At best they're a weaker version of a hollow hold. Planks as well, I view them these days as shoulder training more than core training. Doing them on one arm can work your obliques quite nicely, but that wont help you with V sits.

The thing is that all of your stated goals involve compression, rather than strength in the stretched position. So hollow rocks are nice (and body levers are even better) but you really need to be working on building up strength in the end of your ROM.

Personally I like L hangs because you can hold them after you lose compression, but that's the opposite of what you're looking for here. (There's also some stuff about integrating lat and core activation, but we'll ignore that for now).

If you can hold a good L sit on the floor, by all means work that as a priority. I can't get much good work out of them because I lose compression, but if you can hold them for a decent amount of time you can really get some good work in there. Make sure you keep your palms flat on the floor.

There's 2 types of L sits. The 'advanced' version requires you to keep your hips underneath your hands, but letting your hips sink further behind your hands requires you to improve your compression, so either one would be good for you. Obviously to improve further to middle split hold you will need to master the advanced version.

You need to hit compression with both static and dynamic work, so follow your L sits with your hanging leg raises. Do them on stall bars or get someone to support your back, but avoiding leaning back or pulling with your back during the raise is important.

Apart from both of these, you need to work active compression from an easier position. Seated leg lifts are great for this. I would probably suggest doing these during your warmup.

Apart from building up the active strength to pull into the position, you need to build the passive flexibility to reach the position in the first place. Obviously I would need more details about your current stretching routine before I gave any real advice on this, but mastering the pancake should be your priority if you haven't already.

At their most basic press handstands require more lower back strength than ab strength. This line blurs somewhat once you start working on L press handstands and above, but the point is you won't build up enough strength with hanging leg lifts.

You need reverse leg lifts.

You can do them with your lower body hanging off the edge of something at first if you really need to, but you should aim to start them from a headstand position. Once you get decent at that, you can work them from a handstand position against a wall. Then you're pretty much there.

Don't worry so much about hip flexor vs abs strength. It's pretty hard to isolate one vs the other, and it's non-functional to do so. If you're working one hard, you're working the other hard too. Remember, it's all about compression. That's what's going to get you where you want to go.

And don't train your core every day. Train it hard enough, and you'll need a day off. Trust me.

And finally, here's something a little bit more badass than L-V hanging leg lifts:

thanks for your advice as well! helepd a lot! maybe you can answer the question I posted down below as well - is working out "tired" muscles hindering progression?

If my goals are Leg lifts on stall bars - should I work them when fully rested at the beginning or end of workout?

[Connor Davies]

Is working out "tired" muscles worse?

...Yes?

 

Umm, don't do like, 10 minutes of planks before attempting to reach max compression on hanging leg lifts. 

 

Like I said before, but I'll repeat it, don't bother with hollows and planks.  They're bodyline exercises, not maximal strength building exercises.  Sure, they're good to train, but a 10 minute plank doesn't equal a good hanging leg lift.  They're really not related.

 

Start with exercises the exercises that require the most compression, then move to ones that require less.  This way you're teaching your body that it's safe/comfortable to move into that ROM.  If you're only ever doing half leg lifts because you're tired, your body is going to think that's its full ROM and you'll lose the ability to do them with full ROM, even if you're getting 'stronger'.

 

It's the same order moving from stronger to weaker.  You need to make sure your body knows it can perform these things.  Admittedly, there's a case for doing this kind of stuff when you're tired, but only after it's already mastered.  Not to develop it in the first place!

 

Hollow rocks and planks make for a good warmup, but try to keep the reps/hold times low.  You should feel 'pumped' not tired after you do them.  If they're not helping you to perform better, you're doing too much.

 

So, using the exercises I mentioned above, you would start with maybe 5 minutes total (including rest time) of hollows and planks just to warm up your core.  Maybe move straight into seated leg lifts.  They're good for activating compression, without heavy load, so your body knows you can do it.  Think of them like hollows and planks, part of your warmup.

 

Then I'd say move straight into hanging leg lifts, or V sits.  It really depends which one you find harder, and which one you really want to focus on.  Alternate them every week if you want.  But either way, you want to do them both before L sits, because they both involve more compression.

 

V ups on the floor are an easier version of hanging leg lifts, so they would come at the end of your workout.  I'd say do them after the L sits, if you really want to activate that compression while exhausted.  But, you should only do this if you're not going to lose ROM.  If you really consider V ups as mastered then it makes sense.  But if you're struggling for compression doing them first, do them before your L sits.

 

Don't worry about hanging knee lifts.  They're a useful tool to get up to the bar if you can't raise up there with straight legs (tuck up, extend and lower down) but you shouldn't need to train them with high volume.  You've already got hanging leg lifts for that!

 

It seems to me like you're trying to build endurance, rather than strength.  Remember, the world record for a plank is over 80 minutes!  But I'm pretty sure that guy couldn't press to handstand, if you get my point...

 

From what I remember, you train in a gymnastics facility don't you?  Shouldn't you already have a Coach who should be pointing these things out to you?

[Connor Davies]

Oh, just occurred to me.  What kind of ROM are you looking at with the hanging leg lifts.  Can you touch your feet to the bar, and can you touch your feet to the bar on stall bars?  (There's a difference)

[ForzaCavaliere]

Yeah as Bipocni said, you should put the harder exercises first. 

 

It all comes down to goal/exercise selection. 

 

If you want to develop the strength to do your aforementioned moves, shouldn't you be putting your training for them towards the beginning of your workout, and making the hardest of these exercises the first ones to be completed, when you're freshest and have the most strength, as opposed to the end of the workout where you will have less ability to complete quality reps?

As an example, I am able to do 1 arm pullup isometric holds at the top. If I wanted to train to be able to train to complete a full 1 arm pullup, would it be a good idea for me to use all my energy doing heaps of reps of normal pullups and then afterwards doing an isometric 1armpullup hold? No, that sounds like a bad idea to me. I would be too tired to hold the position effectively, meaning I'm not really getting any stronger at it.

 

Your order of exercises should reflect the priority of your goals: if you want to go L-hang to V-hang the most, then put the corresponding exercises towards the beginning of your workout, and if you want a V-sit secondmost, then put that training after your L-V-hang training. 

[Daniel Burnham]

The order should be in priority of goals sure but that doesn't always mean that you should put the hardest thing first.  It also doesn't guarantee the predicate that we actually know the best progressions for our goals .  That is why foundation set these things up for use with a specific way to follow.  

 

In your case you need two things.  More strength in the L-sit (arms).  20 seconds is not long enough.  Also if V-sit is your main goal you should start working the compression drills.  This is active compression mind you and not just static pike holds.  This comes mostly from the hip flexors though abdominals will be working also.