are gymnasts who train their whole life stronger? no one could answer this question

[lisiflex]

Hi, my name is Alex and I am just posting a topic on my girlfriend's account, because I don't have much time yet to register!

I have a very importat question and hope someone's is able to answer it. I searched the internet, read books and asked a bunch of people - but no one can give me a good answer!

Imagine:

You have a 20 year old gymnast, who has been doing gymnastics for his whole life.

And

You have a 20 year old guy who was quite sporty but started working out with gymnastic strength exercises about 1 year ago.

Both can do the same amount of pull-ups, leg raises, and a straddle and pike press handstand, etc.

So just seen from the strength perspective and not considering any skills - could an expert (doctor or coach or whatever) tell which one has done gymnastics all his life and which one just started recently?

Are there any signs in/on/around the muscles? Will of them loose the strength earlier when not in training?

Or are 10 pull-ups always 10 pull-ups, without any difference, no matter how long you have already been doing them. 

[Murray Truelove]

I imagine you would see a difference in mobility, flexibility and the recruitment of stabilisation muscles.

I can't find the post but there's one where coach mentions the number of top level athletes Who had a background in gymnastics. Beyond the incredible strength there's a lot of carry over and adaptability to other sports. I think this comes from the increasing complexity of movements in gymnastic training.

[Andrew Lim]

The non-gymnast dude is about to hurt himself.

 

doh it's the elbows again 

[Jon Douglas]

At 20? The gymnast would have reached 10 pullups before 10 years old and gone on to much harder stuff by then.

[James Janssen]

Properly trained gymnasts have connective tissue strength that I'm sure person 2 doesn't have after just one year of GST. The skills a gymnast performs is what strengthen that tissue; tumbling, swinging elements etc.

[GoldenEagle]

Yes, a gymnastic coach will notice the differences from simply looking at the athlete's muscle build.

[Frankincensed]

People who train all of their lives doing anything, including working a farm , can have a thing that has been called "positive strength". I don't know how to describe it except you will know it when you feel it. It's like their starting point is your ending point. Their resting strength just is so high that it's not a problem to whip off the things you have to heavily exert yourself to do. Not sure if this makes any sense biomechanically, in termsof the nervous system or even if it can be measured, but it can be experienced.

 

Not sure why it's an important question. Money riding on it?

[Connor Davies]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure even I could spot the difference.

 

It's a subtle thing, but there are a huge variety of markers that could give it away.

 

I remember hearing an anecdote about a physical therapist (don't remember his name, and anyway he's dead now) that could real your whole history just by looking at you.  Simply from the way you stood, he could tell you what your sport was, and what kind of injuries you'd had in the past.

 

Now that guy was the best, but you don't need to be that good to recognise quality of movement.  Watch this if you get a chance, and pay attention to his press to handstands.  There's a level of grace there that is lacking from almost every press to handstand I've ever seen.

 

Even though your numbers might be the same, it doesn't mean you're doing the same thing at all.  Anyone who's had that 'aha' moment in regards to pelvic tilt during the first six front lever progression of F1 will know what I'm talking about...

 

Edit: Oh, and to answer the name of the thread:  yes.  Gymnasts who train their whole lives are hella strong.  Maybe they can't deadlift a thousand pounds, but as far as strength/weight ration goes, they're the strongest people on the planet...

[Matthew Proulx]

Are gymnasts who train their whole life stronger? Yes, but this has more relation to skill than just strength. To ask it as a general question there is no general answer. Anyone who has spent a good amount of time(quality time) doing something, is going to be generally more skilled and most likely "stronger" than the person who has spent less time. Of course there are rare exceptions but I doubt at an elite gymnast level there is someone who is a rare exception who didn't train a long time to get there. Now just because someone has been doing something for 20 years does not mean they are any good either, you have to take into account the quality of their training, if they are an amateur or professional.

[Pedro Otero]

I think a more interesting question would be, if both of them are equally smart about training from now on, would the gap between them change at all over time? How much catching up is possible? Where will each of those theoretical people be in 10, 20, 30 years, in relation to each-other?

[Coach Sommer]

The gymnasts who had trained their entire life would be MUCH stronger due to connective tissue adaptations to dynamic work.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[silverback78]

Good afternoon coach.

 

I've weight trained for the last 15 years but in those years, I would spend months on calisthenics. I enjoy them more and find they fit me better. I've always flipped as a kid, climb trees, played on monkey bars, and was always real flexible. 

 

36 years old now and I'm again tired of weightlifting. Suffered ligament strain in the shoulder area and now I'm dedicating my workouts to calisthenics again. Also taking classes in Biology and Anatomy so when you mentioned how gymnasts have stronger connective tissue than a weight lifter, can you go into some detail on why? I understand dynamic movement but you go into the science of why?

 

 

[Bryan Wheelock]

Silverback78 it's because of all the straight arm strength work and volume of work among other things.

[Daniel Burnham]

Good afternoon coach.

I've weight trained for the last 15 years but in those years, I would spend months on calisthenics. I enjoy them more and find they fit me better. I've always flipped as a kid, climb trees, played on monkey bars, and was always real flexible.

36 years old now and I'm again tired of weightlifting. Suffered ligament strain in the shoulder area and now I'm dedicating my workouts to calisthenics again. Also taking classes in Biology and Anatomy so when you mentioned how gymnasts have stronger connective tissue than a weight lifter, can you go into some detail on why? I understand dynamic movement but you go into the science of why?

Look up Davis's law for soft tissue.

[silverback78]

BigB: Thanks for the response. I will research on why straight arm does more for the connective tissue than weight lifting. If you have any direction on where to look, I'd appreciate it. Hard to shift through the garbage when it comes to the internet.

 

Daniel: Will do! Thanks!

[silverback78]

Couldn't you apply Davis's Law to weight training too or am I misunderstanding the law? It seems like stuff like Planches, HS holds, L sits is what make calisthenics/gymnastics superior for soft tissue strengthening right? Can you not implement this with stuff like OHP by holdling it at full extension? 

 

Another question, sorry if I'm asking too much, but for combat, is the strength gained through calisthenics/gymnastics better for combat or is weight training?

[Bryan Wheelock]

I had 10 years of combat sports experience, I wish I'd known about gymnastics. We climbed ropes and had rings. No one knew how to develop ring strength so we didn't use them.  We were doing olympic lifting, but I don't think anyone knew what a Front Lever was so we never even tried it. 

 

We sent people to nationals every year.

 

That said, we would have don't even better if we'd done GST.

 

GST is about getting strong at angles of poor leverage. 

Since grappling is almost all about getting better leverage than your opponent, the benefits of GST are obvious.

 

This is a double edge sword, most adults that learn GST  will tweak their elbows if they don't follow the correct progressions.

 

This is even more likely if you weigh over 200lbs. Everyone thinks they can handle more load than they think.

 

For a demonstration, do a Pushup then try a Pseudo Planche Pushup with you hands at your waist and you will realize which is harder and which stresses your elbow more.

[silverback78]

Makes sense. I'm not a big guy. I'm 6 foot with shoes on and about a 172lbs. I'm a newbie to the holds and gymnastic training but not to general calisthenics. After years of weightlifting, I'm pretty sick of it. I've gained strength and size but I've never really enjoyed the result other than feeling good in clothes. Don't get me wrong, I still want to be muscular but not huge. I just want strength and even moreso, the ability to move my body more ways than I can imagine. My old man, who's my role model, has Parkinson's and watching him struggle sometimes to walk, has made me change my thought process on what's strength and what do I want for the rest of my life. I still want to look good in shirts but I want to look good in shirts while doing a human flag you know ? 

 

As a former personal trainer, all I do is research. I came across Coach Sommer years ago but never had the money to buy anything. LOL, still don't but I'm researching. Maybe one day. Funny thing is, I came across Ido Portal a year ago and have been enamored by his philosphy. I remember reading one of his tutorials and he credited Coach Sommer so I came back to the website. I had an AHA moment when I went to my daughter's best friend bday party and it was at a local gymnastic gym.  I monkeyed around a little with the rings and unsucessfully tried to do an iron cross after doing some dips (HOLY COW).  The coach then wanted me to try climbing a rope with legs horizontally extended and not in use. I did and climbed to the top with ease. Did that a few times and a feeling I had after doing it, was great. My muscles were work but it felt better than working them with weights. Finally, after straining the ligaments in my shoulder doing partial bench press (which I absolutely have always hated but bench pressed because I thought, "work the back, must work the front too for muscular balance), that I'm done with weights for a while. Maybe forever who knows? Plus my favorite exercise over the last 15 years? Dips and pullups with weights or without. 

 

So here I am, trying something old (did strictly calisthenics for 6 months years ago) but with something new (gymnastics). I haven't quite figured out how to start a routine. I did upper body monday, lower today with some jumps,  some weighted front squats (following a bit what Ido says about the lower body needing squats), SLS's, GHR's, and reverse hypers and will hit upper body today with some minimal straight arm work focusing on not on failure with straight arm holds but total muscle contraction. I don't know if that's a correct routine but I'm having to self experiment. Next lower body will be sprints. I wish I could afford Coach Sommer's stuff but I'm just an 36 year old husband/father of 4 who's in college right now. Budget should be a 4 letter word.

 

Sorry for the rant. Thanks for the info man. Any other advice, feel free to inform me. It'd be much appreciated. 

 

BTW, I mention combat because I come from a military background and always taught that your training better be applied for a lot of things but self defense should be one of them.

[Josh Vogel]

Hi Silverback,

I don't have a ton of experience with gymnastic training as I've only been doing Foundation one and handstand one on and off for around a year. I've been doing Brazilian Jiujitsu for 10 years though and since I've been consistent with the courses I've noticed a lot of benefit in my grappling ability. First, from the static positions I notice that I'm able to maintain a solid structure in relatively static grappling positions much much better, with better whole body connection. The joint prep and mobility work is giving me much better range of motion and stability in my shoulders, wrists and lower back as well. This has resulted in me feeling less brittle and easy to injure as well as the connected and solid feeling I mentioned earlier.

Hope that helps some!

[silverback78]

Makes sense. I know some MMA fighters who use gymastic exercises into their workouts. I also follow some of what Scott Sonnon does and he's an advocate of it as well.

[Laura McNally]

For the hypothetical, also keep in mind some selection bias.  Someone who is an elderly 20 and has been doing gymnastics his whole life is someone who hasn't fallen away from the sport because of injuries caused by poor mechanics or stupid training.  That means this 20yr old is likely someone who moves well and has had a smart coach.  That person is always going to be light years ahead of a sporty dabbler who is neurologically gifted enough to quickly pick up on skills.