Keilani Gutierrez Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) Hey guys was going through Youtube looking at Trigger point therapy videos and found this cool one that explains the basics(so that means to find something that might help you specifically might not be contained within this video that im posting) behind trigger points. wish I had found this months ago to better understand what I was doing by rolling my muscles. check it out! (so that means to find something that might help you specifically might not be contained within this video that im posting, this is only for educational purposes albeit, there are better sources to start filling in the bigger picture, so it's more like entertainment. ) P.S. always consult with your medical professional what treatment to undergo, if you have any pain or injury. you are not a doctor(if you are, this does not apply to you) and neither am I. Edited February 12, 2014 by KeilaniG 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Schwab Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 That was super interesting!I had actually been thinking about giving rolling a try but dont know enough to know which sources for getting started are reputable.Any you would recommend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Malin Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Vet your sources before accepting any treatments on the internet as sound--this is not an effective approach based on science. Trigger points involve both the local tissue and the nervous system. To treat only one will not only be ineffective beyond a temporary relief, but also tends to make the issue far worse down the road. Soft tissue can and should be treated with a variety of techniques. Each has their own specific purpose and physiological effects on the targeted tissue. To simply use one tool for everything is just as effective as training an iron cross with only bent arm work: not at all. The below articles have extensive literature to reference and will get you much further in the treatment of TP. SCIENCE OF TRIGGER POINT THERAPY. PART I:https://www.scienceofmassage.com/dnn/som/journal/0903/medical.aspx Part II:https://www.scienceofmassage.com/dnn/som/journal/0905/medical.aspx Part III:https://www.scienceofmassage.com/dnn/som/journal/0907/medical.aspx Part IV:https://www.scienceofmassage.com/dnn/som/journal/0909/medical.aspx 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keilani Gutierrez Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 Cory I was reading through those articles as well, I was more intrigued by just looking at the animation of how a tiny muscle fiber can relate tension throughout a muscle group just because I had never seen it in animation, but then again, what exactly is being construed that is misleading? thanks for the reminder to keep reading through the journal. surely the focus of trigger point therapy and how to undergo it's programming can't exactly be portrayed in 4 minutes on youtube, exactly like the Foundation Series, which is why courses exist. knowing that my next question would be, aside from the links you gave above, what kind of questions should I be asking myself to make the effort into investigating trigger point therapy more fruitful, in your experience? or in what direction should I be moving towards? (like what areas in neuroscience? for example) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Abernethy Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 In defence of the original post - I found the animation interesting and helpful in visualising what trigger points are - also I agree with Cory in that a holistic approach is usually necessary.[i didn't have the sound on so I don't know what was said.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Schwab Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Thanks Cory! I had forgotten you had posted these not too long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Malin Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Cory I was reading through those articles as well, I was more intrigued by just looking at the animation of how a tiny muscle fiber can relate tension throughout a muscle group just because I had never seen it in animation, but then again, what exactly is being construed that is misleading? thanks for the reminder to keep reading through the journal. surely the focus of trigger point therapy and how to undergo it's programming can't exactly be portrayed in 4 minutes on youtube, exactly like the Foundation Series, which is why courses exist. knowing that my next question would be, aside from the links you gave above, what kind of questions should I be asking myself to make the effort into investigating trigger point therapy more fruitful, in your experience? or in what direction should I be moving towards? (like what areas in neuroscience? for example) Animations are only as helpful as they are accurate. The video does not really give the cause of or larger picture to which trigger points belong. That along with ineffective treatment technique make it a poor resource. Now, I'm not saying everything in the video is false, but again it's trying to train an iron cross with bent arm strength. For your studiesTrigger points are simply a point on a larger spectrum of disfunction called reflex zones. Reflex zones are areas of soft tissue with local abnormalities which are formed secondarily to the original cause. What's important about this and what many psuedoscience literature ignores is the CNS. Your central nervous system uses the segmentation of the spinal cord to control particular tissues. For example, the lat trigger point is innervated by the C7 segment of the spinal cord. What this means in treatment is that you have to address this origin/innervation first and then the local area. If you want to go more in depth with all this, I would start with -Pseudo-metamer structure of the human body-Segmental structure of the peripheral nervous systems-Head’s zones Tests for Trigger PointsMovement Test: patient gains full range of motion when pressure directly on TPCompass Technique: find the angle with most pain when pressure is applied Science-based Trigger Point Therapy (not a self-applied process!) 1) Inhibitory regime of massage therapy (2-3 minutes effleurage and kneading w/moderate speed, same pressure/direction)2) Activation of central control trigger via active conversation (posterior column of spinal cord going to hypothalamus) 3) Application of permanent electric vibration (60/70-100hz and soft contact area) for 1 min at same angle of trigger point entrance. It is essential to use "true vibration" (side-to-side) rather than a thumping/percussive vibration.4) Application of the ischemic compression5) Move vibrator next to TP, replace with finger to do compression. Stop at first sensation of pain. Hold 10-15 sec or until there is less pain. Increase pressure. Repeat. 3-4 applications to reach the bottom of trigger point. Hold at bottom up to a minute. Exit quickly. Postisometric Muscular Relaxation (PIR) Phase6) Isometric muscle contraction against the operator’s resistance7) 3-5 seconds targeted muscle relaxation8) Passive stretching of the muscle in the direction opposite to its contraction First time: 90 degrees or halfway in ROM. Second time: 1/2 of previous ROM. Three stretches total and look for muscle shaking. The reason that I am so against inaccurate trigger point information is that it is one of the few ways to create harm through bodywork. For a single example, excessive application of pressure during TPT can spark myogelosis formation (that hard and elastic property, which rolls under finger under pressure). This is something you can't easily get rid of. Trigger point therapy pseudoscience and associated techniques is very popular for practitioners because it markets well. This should have been your red flag because everyone has an explanation and a technique or workbook they're eager to sell you, but a quick vetting of sources will reveal a sandy foundation for it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keilani Gutierrez Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 Cory, thank you for the unbelievable amount of feedback and direction! The reason that I am so against inaccurate trigger point information is that it is one of the few ways to create harm through bodywork. For a single example, excessive application of pressure during TPT can spark myogelosis formation (that hard and elastic property, which rolls under finger under pressure). This is something you can't easily get rid of. Trigger point therapy pseudoscience and associated techniques is very popular for practitioners because it markets well. This should have been your red flag because everyone has an explanation and a technique or workbook they're eager to sell you, but a quick vetting of sources will reveal a sandy foundation for it. I can see that this is the real reason of why you asked me to vet my choices! this phenomenon that you call out( myogelosis formation) is something i've felt in my body (mostly in my neck and my legs, because that's where it's been easiest for my uneducated mind to come to that conslusion) sometime's it'll leave when I do releases, other times, not so much and sometimes not at all. it feels like an elastic cord that is harder than my muscle per ce, running through it and other times i'll just have a random tender spot that i've been very sure wasn't caused recently by bumping into something or a fall riding my bike. (actually, once I had an incident with my hamstring where I fell onto my back while doing a headstand and landed on my tippy toes and suddenly my hamstring developed a long bungee cord of tension and shortened it by a huge margin. my knee couldn't bend past 90 degrees. it was like this for around a few days and went away. (i used crutches and didn't follow any rehab protocol. surprisingly, my stiffest leg is my right leg.) i don't know if this was the same phenomenon, but it does open my eyes, a little bit more to how vast medical subjects can be....chemical beings are so fascinating aren't they? #awestruck P.S. would getting this type of treatment fall under medical insurance? I make trips to U.S. and am planning an upcoming trip to a GB seminar and would like to appreciate the opportunity to be on U.S. soil to be seen by a professional, if it were possible, i'd like that to be you. I rather give you my money. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Abernethy Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Wow@Cory - much more to trigger points than meets the eye. Thank you for your posts on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Malin Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 P.S. would getting this type of treatment fall under medical insurance? I make trips to U.S. and am planning an upcoming trip to a GB seminar and would like to appreciate the opportunity to be on U.S. soil to be seen by a professional, if it were possible, i'd like that to be you. I rather give you my money. It varies drastically by state within the US. If you're lucky the paperwork trail is only a mile long. If you have someone who can reasonably follow directions, TPT isn't too difficult to have done. The major requirement is having the tool to produce true vibration between 60-100hz. Hitachi makes one, but otherwise the market is limited on these. In any event, I've never taken money for performing bodywork at a GB seminar and never would. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keilani Gutierrez Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 It varies drastically by state within the US. If you're lucky the paperwork trail is only a mile long. If you have someone who can reasonably follow directions, TPT isn't too difficult to have done. The major requirement is having the tool to produce true vibration between 60-100hz. Hitachi makes one, but otherwise the market is limited on these. In any event, I've never taken money for performing bodywork at a GB seminar and never would. noted. thanks Cory, you're awesome and something special. #thumbsup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randeep Walia Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Cory- I'm not going to lie, I find this thread to be really frustrating! I had been looking at TPT as the be-all-end-all for curing some of my lower back pain and this information comes along and challenges everything. I guess it is never that simple. I had a trigger point myofascial massage that really helped a lot in terms of dealing with my back. I was getting ready to drop $500 on a series of treatments with this therapist, but it was strictly massage. None of the "science-based" items that you mentioned were used. If I am searching for this type of practicioner what does my google search look like (I'm also in the Atlanta area if you have specific recommendations). I currently foam roll often and was planning to purchase a lacrosse ball to start working on my glutes and pecs. Do the dangers you have referred to mean that I shouldn't do this type of therapy without learning more about the right therapeutic techniques first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Malin Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Cory- I'm not going to lie, I find this thread to be really frustrating! I had been looking at TPT as the be-all-end-all for curing some of my lower back pain and this information comes along and challenges everything. I guess it is never that simple. I had a trigger point myofascial massage that really helped a lot in terms of dealing with my back. I was getting ready to drop $500 on a series of treatments with this therapist, but it was strictly massage. None of the "science-based" items that you mentioned were used. If I am searching for this type of practicioner what does my google search look like (I'm also in the Atlanta area if you have specific recommendations). I currently foam roll often and was planning to purchase a lacrosse ball to start working on my glutes and pecs. Do the dangers you have referred to mean that I shouldn't do this type of therapy without learning more about the right therapeutic techniques first? The issue isn't at all about the technique, it's about correctly identifying the problem to begin with. When you know the physiological processes causing something, choosing the correct tool/technique becomes simple. Don't take my word on the science, follow up on the referenced studies at the bottom of the articles I linked and decide for yourself. My honest recommendation is to build yourself a clear clinical picture of your lower back pain rather than blindly trying therapies. It's not hard to provide temporary relief to an issue, but it's a dramatic and immediate difference when the primary issue has been resolved. If it's truly solved it won't come back ever unless you manage to do something to create the issue all over again. That's why it's also important to know what to stop or change in your lifestyle/training to accompany the therapy. Unfortunately, I do not know many therapists back East. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedro Otero Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Unfortunately, I do not know many therapists back East. Any chance you know one in LA/SoCal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Malin Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Any chance you know one in LA/SoCal? A couple, actually. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedro Otero Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 A couple, actually.Oh man, please hook me up! I desperately need to figure out what's wrong with my upper back/shoulder; and fix it. Been a bit terrified of picking the wrong person and getting screwed even worse.There's a damn spot back there that used to only bother me after prolonged stiff sitting, but has lately been interfering with my handstands, and even extended plank work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Malin Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Oh man, please hook me up! I desperately need to figure out what's wrong with my upper back/shoulder; and fix it. Been a bit terrified of picking the wrong person and getting screwed even worse.There's a damn spot back there that used to only bother me after prolonged stiff sitting, but has lately been interfering with my handstands, and even extended plank work! Sure, shoot me a PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Schwab Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Would you happen to know any in the DMV area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankincensed Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 This is a counterpoint article worth reading as well, from a practitioner. http://saveyourself.ca/articles/trigger-point-doubts.php and this is the guide referred to within. http://saveyourself.ca/tutorials/trigger-points.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Malin Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Would you happen to know any in the DMV area? Not off the bat. My practice is limited to a set number of clients and for 18 months the majority of it was dedicated entirely to Coach's athletes. I spend the majority of my time working directly on GB projects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Malin Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 This is a counterpoint article worth reading as well, from a practitioner. http://saveyourself.ca/articles/trigger-point-doubts.php and this is the guide referred to within. http://saveyourself.ca/tutorials/trigger-points.php This author appears to be unaware of Head Zones, Professor A. E. Sherbak, Dr. O. Glezer, or Dr. V.A. Dalichowork's collective works, or the basic physiological interactions between soft tissue and the nervous system. None of those are just-published so there's a stark lack of thoroughness by the author. The articles and associated references I linked earlier can and should be evaluated on their own merit. I don't use the Russian Medical Massage concept because it's a trend, I do so because I achieve predictable clinical results. TPT is simply a single tool of many in the MM arsenal that happens to be both popular and widely misunderstood/applied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankincensed Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 This author appears to be unaware of Head Zones, Professor A. E. Sherbak, Dr. O. Glezer, or Dr. V.A. Dalichowork's collective works, or the basic physiological interactions between soft tissue and the nervous system. None of those are just-published so there's a stark lack of thoroughness by the author. The articles and associated references I linked earlier can and should be evaluated on their own merit. I don't use the Russian Medical Massage concept because it's a trend, I do so because I achieve predictable clinical results. TPT is simply a single tool of many in the MM arsenal that happens to be both popular and widely misunderstood/applied. By counterpoint I didn't mean against your information, but counterpoint to the author's own positive support and practice of TPT. Personally I've had good results receiving TPT as well. I got the feeling that he was expressing the current undersanding in layman's terms. It may be that the Russians are at the head of the pack when it comes to understanding and working with these things. Of course, Russian research was heavily politicized, so isn't always viewed as equal to western research - which is without bias of course! And really, as a layman it would be impossible to distinguish fact from fancy in this area. Bottom line is if it works, it works...how and why is secondary. But thanks I do appreciate your mentioning this stuff and I will take a further look into it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teresa Zorich Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 The publication that published the articles Cory mentioned in his first post has written a follow-up article! Here it is: Ischemic Compression: To be or Not to Be? Science of Trigger Point Therapy https://www.scienceofmassage.com/2011/10/ischemic-compression-to-be-or-not-to-be-science-of-trigger-point-therapy/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie B Edwards Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 On 2/12/2014 at 3:18 PM, Scott Malin said: The major requirement is having the tool to produce true vibration between 60-100hz. Hitachi makes one, but otherwise the market is limited on these. Greetings, Is the Hitachi tool listed above the "Magic Wand"? Thank you for your time. -Jamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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