MN/PE6 for so long time

I had family members push my legs to vertical using a broom. Good for knowing that my hips can accommodate the shape, but pretty useless for gaining strength in that position. I have zero power when I attempt to lift my legs more than 45 degrees above horizontal.

Ravn- would you care to submit a video showing a few reps of you doing PE2 and/or PE3 for review here. I would be interested to see if not enough mobility here could be causing issues with this...

I'll record a few sets tomorrow or Wednesday. Ironically my passive flexibility is decent, but my active pike is rubbish. I would think the two were related, but apparently that's not necessarily the case.

Comparing it to the F1 video it looks to me like you don't sit up as high. I think you need more compression.

Murray Truelove said:

Comparing it to the F1 video it looks to me like you don't sit up as high. I think you need more compression.

I think you are right . At the moment I'm working a combination of these and isometric HLL, but my main focus is hamstring stretches. I won't be able to move forward until my pike mobility is significantly better.

 

I have been cycling various pike stretches to see which are most beneficial. Seated pike stretches are difficult to load when doing them solo, so I don't really use those anymore. I still do Jefferson curls, but it's as if I've milked them dry: I just added 10 kg's to a total of 42 kg, but it doesn't give me a lot of extra ROM. Right now, stall bar vertical pike hangs (MN/PE7>iM) done PNF-style with hands and feet as close as possible seem to have the biggest impact on the hamstrings, but it will probably be a while before I see improvements in ROM. I think I'm at a point where all the low hanging fruits have been picked, and from here on, it will be very hard work to get additional ROM gains.

 

I wish that the next GB course coming out was S1, I really, really need it. If there's one big take home message from the good old BtGB days, it is that I'm absolutely rubbish at doing my own programming, and here I am, trying to put together a stretching routine, on which the progress of the Foundation series depends  .

Seriously though, why is it so hard to gain compression? Passive flexibility is here, it's just a matter of active flexibility. If active flexibility is strength throughout the ROM, why doesn't it come while working on the exercises if passive flexibility is already here?

Bro said:

Seriously though, why is it so hard to gain compression? Passive flexibility is here, it's just a matter of active flexibility. If active flexibility is strength throughout the ROM, why doesn't it come while working on the exercises if passive flexibility is already here?

Hmm, check out my video above, the standing pike. What appears to be decent ROM, is aided greatly by gravity, since gravity counters the tight hamstrings, right? But in straddle-ups, we have to fight both hamstrings AND gravity. The only thing to do, is to take the tightness of the hamstrings out of the equation, I just wish I knew how. Stretching feels like spinning wheels atm.

Yeah I totally agree, hence why I say it's good passive ROM. I agree active flexibility is not there yet, I'm pretty much just ranting at how hard it is to get it.  ​ 

I know.

 

I point the finger at myself when I question the sense in doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

 

Maybe it's time for for the gb.com crew to come up with an official and radical approach to the pike compression problem that so many here are troubled by? Perhaps an essay in the F1 forum detailing how to work up to the required amount of compression; I personally suspect that while the mobility in F1 is adequate for kids and teens, it may not be aggressive enough, or provide enough time under tension to reverse the tightness and decrepitude of adult hips. Surely Coach and co. will also have an interest in the trainees moving forward to prove that the courses do work?

 

Basically, I'd like an official comment on the following statements:

 

A: The mobility in F1 is adequate, you just need to do it for a very long time for the effects to occur, and you need to do it harder. If that's the case, I will do just that.

 

or...

 

B: Some people may need *special* ( ) treatment to gain the required compression to be able to move forward with the MN progressions.

 

As for A, some people have indeed been doing MN2 for a year now, and have not achieved mastery yet. I don't know if that is an acceptable time frame for an adult, seen through the eyes of a coach - I'll leave that judgment to the pros.

 

I know that the standard answer is to stretch, or to get Kit's book, but personally, I just need a set of instructions for stretching. Dabbling with a homemade stretching program doesn't cut it, after all we are trying to achieve a manna here. If I may quote from the F1 page in the shop:

 

"Integrated Mobility exercises are provided for each and every step along the way throughout all of the Foundation Courses. Never again will a lack of mobility be responsible for poor gains in GST. "

 

Right now, it is precisely a lack of mobility that is responsible for my poor gains with respect to the manna progressions. The rest of the progressions are going great. I think it's fair to expect, given this quote, that GB students do not have to go out and acquire additional mobility material, in order to achieve the goals in F1-4.

 

Last thing: I'm not saying that it's Coach's responsibility that I have poor compression - That's obviously my responsibility. What I am saying is that I, and a bunch of others, need assistance in overcoming the compression issue - Or in the words of Dan John, someone saying: Do this!

I'm about to start MN2 in a couple of weeks. My flexibility is an issue (can't touch my toes) but my compression has improved loads from when I started PE1. I got some tips back then that essential involved practising compression: on your back pull the knees to the chest, in a ball on your front try to compress, at the bottom of a squat (deck squat). Doing these improved my deck squat and my tuck up but it's taken months (I think my flexibility made progress slower).

As has been said else where slow progress is still progress. And once you get the flexibility/mobility everything later will just be a matter of strength training.

Hey chaps, 

 

For a novel way to stretch hamstrings, I've found if you hang from a chinup bar, lift your feet up and put your soles on the underside of the bar. Then work on straightening the knees. Like an upside-down standing pike stretch, if that makes sense.

 

When you get straight legs, then work on actively pulling into the pike, and try to pull your feet off the bar, so they just gently rest there. It works pretty well for me as a warm up for MN PE6... 

 

Dave

Murray Truelove said:

As has been said else where slow progress is still progress. And once you get the flexibility/mobility everything later will just be a matter of strength training.

Yep; My only concern is that I may not be making progress, in other words: No progress is still no progress.

Ravn said:

Yep; My only concern is that I may not be making progress, in other words: No progress is still no progress.

I know what you mean. I've been at the beginning of H1 for ages. I hope once the mobility finally catches up I'll start to make good progress through both courses.

FL, HBP and RC for instance I've started making progress in line with the schedule and not having to repeat any micro-cycles like I had to work a lot of the PE1's.

Ravn, I think your issue that is holding your back is that you're not properly mastered MN/PE2 and MN/PE3, and because of that your results with subsequent PE's aren't what supposed to be.

 

I truly believe that MN/PE1, 2 and 3 are the building blocks about compression and active flexibility both pike and straddle, and must be properly mastered in order to advance safely.

 

I'm not an expert of course, but is what I see. For example, if in MN/PE3 you're not achieved the same pike compression on the floor and with a more easy leverage, how are you going do the same in MN/PE6? 

 

Again, is what I see.

 

Agree with you about we really need adress our lack of mobility, and therefore Stretch courses are on the way, Coach knows about our zombiness. In the meantime, there are a lot of resources... what Coach said in the podcast:

 

"People decide on their own level of success. If they're serious they're gonna find a way to make it happen, they're gonna find the time, the intensity, the resources. If they're not serious then there's no amount of hand holding in the world that's gonna make it happen"

 

If right now the resources are Kit's material, mobility material all around internet, Foundation mobility... then all that matters is read read read and practice practice practice.

 

We've been zombies all our life, and now in a short period of time (1 year is nothing) we want to have the same mobility that gymnasts... oh boy, we've to earn it!

 

/2c

Adriano Augusto said:

Ravn, I think your issue that is holding your back is that you're not properly mastered MN/PE2 and MN/PE3, and because of that your results with subsequent PE's aren't what supposed to be.

 

I truly believe that MN/PE1, 2 and 3 are the building blocks about compression and active flexibility both pike and straddle, and must be properly mastered in order to advance safely.

 

I'm not an expert of course, but is what I see. For example, if in MN/PE3 you're not achieved the same pike compression on the floor and with a more easy leverage, how are you going do the same in MN/PE6? 

 

Again, is what I see.

 

Agree with you about we really need adress our lack of mobility, and therefore Stretch courses are on the way, Coach knows about our zombiness. In the meantime, there are a lot of resources... what Coach said in the podcast:

 

"People decide on their own level of success. If they're serious they're gonna find a way to make it happen, they're gonna find the time, the intensity, the resources. If they're not serious then there's no amount of hand holding in the world that's gonna make it happen"

 

If right now the resources are Kit's material, mobility material all around internet, Foundation mobility... then all that matters is read read read and practice practice practice.

 

We've been zombies all our life, and now in a short period of time (1 year is nothing) we want to have the same mobility that gymnasts... oh boy, we've to earn it!

 

/2c

Adriano, I agree with what you say, largely.

 

There's one major flaw in your self-help argument, though. From what I have read, many people have gotten Kit's book, but still seem to be stuck. Buying extra materials does in no way guarantee success. I already bought a course. I don't believe in scouring the internet for resources on stretching any more. I've read tons. Besides, if I may be a little cheeky, if you didn't believe the slightest in "hand holding", why did you bother buying F1? Couldn't you just have made it by yourself? 

 

The one person I do trust on this matter is Coach. I know that I have the work ethic to achieve a good pike compression, but I lack the methodology to apply that work ethic, hence my call for an official GB MN stretching routine. Again, my own fitness programming skills are rubbish, I have not had the experience to make myself qualified in this field.

 

It is my impression so far that the mobility in F1 has absolutely made me more mobile overall, but not to the degree specifically required to master MN2/3/6. I could/should go back to MN2/3 and keep plugging away, but, unless I'm totally wrong, that won't fix my tight hamstrings all by itself.

Ravn said:

Adriano, I agree with what you say, largely.

There's one major flaw in your self-help argument, though. From what I have read, many people have gotten Kit's book, but still seem to be stuck. Buying extra materials does in no way guarantee success. I already bought a course. I don't believe in scouring the internet for resources on stretching any more. I've read tons. Besides, if I may be a little cheeky, if you didn't believe the slightest in "hand holding", why did you bother buying F1? Couldn't you just have made it by yourself?

The one person I do trust on this matter is Coach. I know that I have the work ethic to achieve a good pike compression, but I lack the methodology to apply that work ethic, hence my call for an official GB MN stretching routine. Again, my own fitness programming skills are rubbish, I have not had the experience to make myself qualified in this field.

It is my impression so far that the mobility in F1 has absolutely made me more mobile overall, but not to the degree specifically required to master MN2/3/6. I could/should go back to MN2/3 and keep plugging away, but, unless I'm totally wrong, that won't fix my tight hamstrings all by itself.

I have not mastered MN 2,3, and 6 yet either, so this is simply my understanding or flexibility from Coach's writing, exercise science, and Martial Arts training (Bill Wallace's stuff especially).

Kit's book will definitely help you improve passive flexibility if you actually put in the time with it. He has actual spelled out stretching routines (in fact the book is pretty much laid out like a course with lesson plans that you are advised to progress through) as well as suggested stretches for specific sports.

But passive flexibility does not guarantee active flexibility, and in fact the two aren't necessarily all that correlated. Passive flexibility will give one potential ROM that they can build strength through though and will almost always exceed their active flexibility ROM, so it's still a good thing to develop.

The F1 mobility exercises are a mix of passive flexibility based (MN, RC, SLS, and SL) and active flexibility based (FL, sPL, and HBP) exercises. Generally the ones that are passive based involve more active flexibility in the PE's (MN for example) and the ones that are active are more don't have as much active flexibility in the PE's (HBP is pretty much all passive mobility based). So I actually think that F1 will pretty much take care of your mobility needs for F1, if you put in enough effort and time into it and it does actually cover the necessary bases.

I think it's also important to realize that active flexibility is pretty much strength training and can be quite intense. Also depending on your level of strength in your agonists (say for example your quads, hip flexors, and Rectus Abdominus in MN PE5), it may take you quite some time working very hard before you achieve the required strength to be able to compress into a hanging Pike with your toes to the bar (but as long as you are continually trying to maximally compress using the right muscles your body should adapt over time). Only then would it make sense to start adding lots of volume IMO (Coach has even said that invreasing volume and intensity simultaneously is a recipe for stagnation at best or injury at worst).

But like the course and Adriano said, you've gotta actually master the earlier ones before trying to master the later ones.

Ravn, I wish I could give you advice for this. It's clear watching the video you posted that you're really struggling with PE2 and PE3. Are you really able to do 5 sets of 15 reps on these at that pace? I hope you get some good advice but here's what I recommend.

 

Your next manna session, start at the beginning do a mastery test of MN PE1. This should be good preparation for the next two Manna elements, especially if you do this at the same speed or even a little bit faster than the video. I feel that if you can demonstrate mastery through this entire thing then you should have enough of a foundation to crank out some quality reps for PE2. I am hoping you discover some weakness in this early stage that will reveal problems in later elements. I recommend filming yourself here to guarantee your form and doing the mastery test for the week (ie, at least two workouts).

 

So if you demonstrate mastery here, try Straddle V-Ups again. Here you are working on getting smooth controlled reps. If you still revert to the way they are in your video where you are slowly pushing through the entire ROM then make sure you are engaging every muscle in your body while you are laying prone. Squeezing the abs, engage the glutes, etc.

 

I know this requires eating a little crow, but the good news is if you do find deficits here in the early stages and work through them I think you will start zipping through the subsequent elements pretty quick

IcedDante said:

Ravn, I wish I could give you advice for this. It's clear watching the video you posted that you're really struggling with PE2 and PE3. Are you really able to do 5 sets of 15 reps on these at that pace? I hope you get some good advice but here's what I recommend.

Your next manna session, start at the beginning do a mastery test of MN PE1. This should be good preparation for the next two Manna elements, especially if you do this at the same speed or even a little bit faster than the video. I feel that if you can demonstrate mastery through this entire thing then you should have enough of a foundation to crank out some quality reps for PE2. I am hoping you discover some weakness in this early stage that will reveal problems in later elements. I recommend filming yourself here to guarantee your form and doing the mastery test for the week (ie, at least two workouts).

So if you demonstrate mastery here, try Straddle V-Ups again. Here you are working on getting smooth controlled reps. If you still revert to the way they are in your video where you are slowly pushing through the entire ROM then make sure you are engaging every muscle in your body while you are laying prone. Squeezing the abs, engage the glutes, etc.

I know this requires eating a little crow, but the good news is if you do find deficits here in the early stages and work through them I think you will start zipping through the subsequent elements pretty quick

Do you suggest that I increase the tempo? I have been doing them at this pace to kill momentum. Yes, I've done 5x15 for MN1,2,3. Doing them faster would make them prettier, but also easier, in my opinion.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by tensing every muscle in the body when laying prone - what would that achieve?

I won't mind going back and reassess mastery, but I still think I need to do something about the stretching. Do I increase the hold times? I keep reading that stretching should make you sore, but I was only sore to begin with. I don't get any doms in my hamstrings anymore, even though I stretch hard with a flat back.

By the way, a recent post from Coach over in the Stretch 1 thread gives me reason to believe that I'm not totally off in suggesting that the F1 mobility on it's own may be (to some people) insufficient to achieve the course goals.

Very interesting discussion.

 

Ravn, I would like to know if you have completely mastered the first Im elements of the Manna progression, and I mean doing them like the athletes in the course;

It is difficult to me to believe that with mastered Jefferson Curls, Pike leans and weighted Pike at the level showed in the videos you have all this difficulties with the first Manna pe exercises, maybe you have not done this well enough.

 

Second I can give you another suggestion: chek if you have tight hip flexors and even a moderate anterior pelvic tilt, if this is the case to achieve a good compression is very difficult if not impossible.

I would try this: perform one set of the first two or  three manna pe exercises, then make a good stretching for the hip flexors and after that perform the exercises again and see if there are differences and improvements, if that is the case you have to work on opening that muscles.

 

 

Ste'

Stefano Baral said:

Very interesting discussion.

 

Ravn, I would like to know if you have completely mastered the first Im elements of the Manna progression, and I mean doing them like the athletes in the course;

It is difficult to me to believe that with mastered Jefferson Curls, Pike leans and weighted Pike at the level showed in the videos you have all this difficulties with the first Manna pe exercises, maybe you have not done this well enough.

 

Second I can give you another suggestion: chek if you have tight hip flexors and even a moderate anterior pelvic tilt, if this is the case achieve a good compression is very difficult if not impossible.

I would try this: perform one set of the first two or  three manna pe exercises, then make a good stretching for the hip flexors and after that perform the exercises again and see if there are differences and improvements, if that is the case you have to work on opening that muscles.

 

 

Ste'

The iM's are according to standard: Unlike my PE's, the iM range of motion is as good as in the video. For the weighted pike hang and JC I use 42 kg's, and my wrists are lower than the soles of my feet. The only deviation is that I'm standing with a slight straddle on two chairs, and lowering a kettlebell between them, as I don't have access to an olympic bar. The straddle is roughly shoulder width.

I'll give your hip flexor combo a try, see what happens.

Ok, given this and watching your straddle pike video I note that you have a good flexion of the superior part of the spine but you are lacking for the lower one so I think there could be the possibility that you have mastered those IMs range using principally the flexion of the high part of your spine and not the lower one where you appears to be carent in mobility.

I suggest you to check even this and eventually to remaster the IMs focusing on using also the flexion of the lower back where you need to gain rom.

 

About the hip flexors tightness another inconvenient of it is that they put the harmstrings more in tension than normal moving the pelvis in anterior tilt and reducing in doing so the elongation possible for them. 

 

Ste'

Stefano Baral said:

Ok, given this and watching your straddle pike video I note that you have a good flexion of the superior part of the spine but you are lacking for the lower one so I think there could be the possibility that you have mastered those IMs range using principally the flexion of the high part of your spine and not the lower one where you appears to be carent in mobility.

You may have a point, but I have been trying to keep a flat back in the pike, to divert the stretching to the hamstrings specifically. I'm no expert, but it is often mentioned on this forum that people will compensate in the pike for tight hamstrings by rounding the back, thereby stalling their hamstring flexibility progress.

 

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong...

Ravn said:

You may have a point, but I have been trying to keep a flat back in the pike, to divert the stretching to the hamstrings specifically. I'm no expert, but it is often mentioned on this forum that people will compensate in the pike for tight hamstrings by rounding the back, thereby stalling their hamstring flexibility progress.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong...

You're not necessarily "wrong", but you're not seeing the whole picture.

Hamstring flexibility actually has nothing to do with the spine's curvature one way or the other and everything to do with the angle between the pelvis and the femur.

The cue to keep the lower back flat during hamstring stretches is designed to get someone to Anterior Pelvic tilt (which results in hip flexion) rather than flexing forwards from the spine (and either not flexing the hips or even Posterior Pelvic tilting/extending the hips) and thus is a useful cue in the beginning to get people to actually stretch their hamstrings.

At a certain point though the hip joint will reach it's maximum degree of flexion/Anterior Pelvic Tilt (which somewhat varies depending on the individual's proportions) and in order to continue to increase pike flexibility (which is actually more than purely hamstring flexibility) the spine will have to begin flexing forwards (including through the lumbar spine).

Also, during a passive stretch like a seated or standing pike stretch the abdominal muscles and quadriceps muscles can be largely relaxed, which results in a greater possible degree of actual hip flexion and a flatter back. In an active stretch though where the abdominals and quadriceps muscle contract to pull the body into the pike position there is generally going to be a greater degree of spinal flexion.

Ok, thanks Keegan. I knew that pike can't be performed with a ruler down the back, I just thought that the primary focus should be the hamstrings. Your explanation gives some consolation, because I think that I can still gain quite a bit of spinal flexibility, since I haven't focused as much on that yet.