Flexibility, Strength and Muscle Imbalance

[kintelary]

There is a correlation between strength and flexibility, which I am still looking into.

What I am asking here is what role muscle imbalance plays in active flexibility??

Most of us have one stronger side, one stronger plane, etc. How does this affect flexibility and when conditioning, is it important to consciously seek to balance strength in muscles (Quads/Hams, Bis/Tris, etc)?

Discussion please.

[braindx]

Uh, depending on the type of imbalance there is often a disparity in flexibility. For example, pitches often have decreased external and especialyl internal rotation on their dominant pitching arm as compared to non-arm.

As far as strength imbalances yes it's important to see some semblance of balance especially between any of the anterior/posterior muscles around a given joint. Affecting flexibility... depends, heh.

[Neal Winkler]

Yes, you do want some balance between front/back but the ratios may not necessarily be 1:1. Obviously, you want to try and achieve 1:1 between side/side.

[braindx]

Yes, you do want some balance between front/back but the ratios may not necessarily be 1:1. Obviously, you want to try and achieve 1:1 between side/side.

NONE of them should have 1:1 ratio. Quad/hams shouldn't have 1:1 to be optimal nor should the calves/anterior tib areas or posterior/anterior torso.

Shoulder anterior/posterior might be the only one where it is optimal to have the 1:1 ratio just because the deltoid is actually "one" muscle even though it has anterior/lateral/medial aspects.

[Gregor]

hams shouldn't have less then 60% of quads strenght to avoid injury.

[kintelary]

Much of the strength and muscle mass possible on various muscles is based on the leverage and purpose of movement.

If you say 60%, because Quads are obviously larger muscle mass than Hams, just as Triceps are larger muscle mass than Biceps, then does that mean I will develop the ability to lift my bodyweight with my Hams, but easily more with my Quads?

Again, if I can lift my body weight with one Hamstring, I should be able to lift my bodyweight with one Quadricep??

If I can do this, will it represent a 60% difference? Will it represent a 1:1 ratio? Or will it just be developed in the proportion that it should be??

[braindx]

I've heard 75%:100% for hams/quad strength.. namely cause there's 4 muscles in the quad and 3 muscles in the hamstrings. If you want to be powerful athletically though you can always use more hamstring & glute strength/power, heh.

Similarly, tris vs. bis is three heads of the muscle vs. two heads to he muscle. Ratios I don't know for this one.

Basically, dominant anterior strength leads to bad things... quads tend to lead to knee problems, chest/anterior delts lead to hunched forward posture and pain, etc.

However, too strong posterior chain leads to no problems at all. Have you ever heard of any injuries of someone with too strong hams/glutes or a too strong back? Hell no. If anything, aim to overstrengthen your posterior chain muscles.

[kintelary]

There is also the issue of leverage.

If we just go off of muscle... 4:3 or 3:2 is you are saying it matters how many muscles in the movement.

But, Quads and Tris are more powerful because they are the pushing muscles... having a different leverage than Hams and Bis, which are pulling muscles.

Still, the focus I was looking for is if flexibility is hindered if there is an imbalance in the strength of opposing muscle groups.

You suggest that more injuries exist from a stronger Anterior than Posterior and if Posterior were stronger, one would assume a set of problems we are not familiar with because of the rarity of the situation.

So, I conclude from the information given that we need to strengthen all of the muscles that work opposing movements in a balanced way to produce ROM and flexibility without the hindrance of opposing muscle grups being overpowering.

Maybe true, maybe not. Mostly discussion.

[braindx]

Well, not really since if you take a look at any of the athletes lifting a CRAPTON of weights (such as the world record DL holder) and look at his strength in his back... you don't really see any problems there.

But yes, if muscles are too strong they can have some impact on flexibility. Hence, why it's always good to train flexibility after workouts especially strength ones.

[Neal Winkler]

Anyone here (Coach, Ido, braindx, Gregor, ect.) have any standards as far as bodyweight exercises go, in terms of balance?

For example, what should be the ratio of dead-hang pullups to handstand pushups? Or, planche pushups to front lever rows? Bulgarian dips to curl variation? Front lever hold to planche hold? ect. ect.

[Nick Van Bockxmeer]

well pull ups are much easier than handstand push ups and front levers are significantly easier than planches.

I wouldn't be too concerned, as long as you are working every plane somewhat regularly. Its only if you work one to the exclusion of the other that you are bound to run into trouble.

[Gregor]

HS push ups:pull ups 1:3

planche PU:FL rows 1.5:1

FL hold:planche hold 2:1

Something like that...

I've never had a thought about that before...

[Neal Winkler]

Thanks Gregor! That's definitely a good start.

[Daniel Jorgensen]

HS push ups:pull ups 1:3

planche PU:FL rows 1.5:1

FL hold:planche hold 2:1

Something like that...

I've never had a thought about that before...

What are those figures based on? experience, empirical data or biomechanics?

And howcome is front back-ratio reversed in the static hold compared to the dynamic movement? Thats seem quite wierd to me :?:

[Gregor]

experience...

[Daniel Jorgensen]

experience...

Sweet, but can you maybe elaborate on that we should more planchePU than FL pulls; but at the same time do more FL holds than planche holds.

[Gregor]

experience...

Sweet, but can you maybe elaborate on that we should more planchePU than FL pulls; but at the same time do more FL holds than planche holds.

Planche hold is defenitly harder then fron lever, but all pulls are much easier then push ups.

[Daniel Jorgensen]

experience...

Sweet, but can you maybe elaborate on that we should more planchePU than FL pulls; but at the same time do more FL holds than planche holds.

Planche hold is defenitly harder then fron lever, but all pulls are much easier then push ups.

Thank you

[Neal Winkler]

Posture is a good guide to muscle balance/imbalance.

If you know the ways that your posture is messed up then you can program exercises appropriately.

A lot of work has been done on this with weights, but I'm not so sure how to do it with gymnastics exercises as they don't follow the same pattern of muscles worked. Sometimes I'm not even sure what the main muscles are that are worked in some of these exercises.

[Nick Van Bockxmeer]

Sometimes I'm not even sure what the main muscles are that are worked in some of these exercises.

I would say the opposite, bodyweight exercises let you know exactly what muscles you are working.

[Joshua Naterman]

I just want to make a few clarifications. The guy who started this thread stated that quads are "pushing muscles" and therefore stronger than hamstrings. That is not true. We, as people, classify a leg extension as a "push" the same as a pushup. However, muscles can ONLY pull. Muscles can only produce force by pulling on a bone, never by pushing against it. Therefore, every skeletal muscle in your body is a pulling muscle. The "muscle strength" is largely determined by the amount of muscle, comparatively speaking, as well as leverage, which is based on where the tendons attach to the bones, as well as the placement relative to the plane of motion.

Second, if your hamstrings overpower your quads, you can tear your quads. It has happened to sprinters. The balance is important. It is not ok to have a vastly stronger posterior, that will cause injuries just as a vastly stronger anterior will.

Third, as far as postural correction, the exercises we do are not as effective as specific therapeutic movements, which do usually involve only bodyweight. Of course, strengthening our muscles is important too.

[terpol]

I'm wondering how to determine muscle balance between the hams and quads. I don't have access to weights so only ghr/hamstring curls and weighted sls. I am not far from being able to do an unassisted hamstring curl with no pike and during an sls (rm is +40lbs) i feel it mainly in the glutes and then quads/hams so i'm concerned of overpowering my quads.

From what i can find out a lot of the quad tears are in the rectus femoris. I've been doing Coachs hips extensions since i started training and have pretty good active flexibility now and therefore rectus femoris strength. I think this would help to prevent tears?, and good passive and dynamic flexibility.

[Joshua Naterman]

What I'm going to say applies ONLY to testing the strength, this would be a very inferior way to develop it and I am not recommending it at all.

Use a machine to test the strength. See how much you can do on a single leg hamstring curl and a single leg "leg extension." Test each leg using a machine at the local gym. If you don't have a membership you can just tell them you want to check out the place and that you're thinking about joining and they'll give you a free workout at the very least, usually a free week.

I've read that you want something around a 3:4 ratio between hamstrings and quads, respectively, so if you can do 150 on a single leg hamstring curl then you should be able to do 200 lbs on a single leg "leg extension."

I believe that it's ok to have up to a 1:1 balance as well, though this is very unusual from what I've read. Hamstrings that are stronger than quads can actually cause quad tears, which it seems you're aware of, and quads that are much stronger than the hamstrings are responsible for most hamstring injuries in sprinters and similar athletes.

This needs to be performed on machines from the same company and product line if possible, which is usually how gyms are set up anyways, to ensure accuracy. That's going to give you the best overall idea of how you are doing with your strength balance. I don't know of other reliable methods, obviously going to a physio lab and using isokinetic machines would be ideal, but good luck being able to do that. If anyone else has a better or comparable method I'd love to hear it, and I'm sure the previous poster would too!

[terpol]

thanks for replying. I'm only aware of quad tears because of your post before me. I had believed what is often said that you can't have too strong a posterior chain but I guess any muscles can become imbalanced.

testing on a machine sounds good, unfortunately theres no gym where i live so i'll have to travel a bit to get to one.

I tried today Idos beginner Shrimp exercise holding 10kg for a counterweight (long legs, can't balance). I did a comfortable 5, feeling it more in my quads than an sls, especially if i lean forward as much as i can and stand on the edge of something so my other leg can drop down as low as possible. Still though i feel it more in the hams/glutes. Any technique ideas to incorporate the quad more? I was thinking of heavy partial sls to focus on the quad.

[Joshua Naterman]

I have noticed that the shrimp is much harder on the quads as well. I have long-ish legs as well, my femur is longer than my upper body by an inch or two, and the shrimp is fairly hard for me. I need to ask Ido to post a guide for shrimp technique, because I don't actually know what the "right way " is. It seems that maintaining a straight bodyline with enough forward lean at the start to balance, and to use no momentum to stand up, is the way to go, but I dont know for sure.