Combining Powerlifting with Static Holds/Gymnastic's training!

[Skoy91]

Hello Gymnastic Bodies community!

 

I'm going to apologize in advance for my very long post.

 

I'm currently looking to combine my current Powerlifting routine with some Gymnastics training!

Without overtraining or injuring myself.

 

Here's some background info on me:

 

Gymnast when I was 8 to 10 years old.

Did Gymnastics in High School for 3 years.  Did Pommel Horse, Still Rings and P-bars.  Trained 6 days a week 3 hours a day.  However I only weighed 105lbs and was not very strong at all by any means.  I think I had a bench press max of 90 lbs.

Been Weighlifting/Powerlifting for about 4 years now.

 

I'm 5'10-5'11 about 150lbs, +- 3lbs.

Age 21, will be 22 in August.

 

Here's an example of my current strength/volume/workout:

 

Bench Press - 185x5

Full Squat - 205x5 (well past 90, my butt almost touches the ground.)

DL - 295x5 (front grip no wraps)

OHP - 115x5 (resting at collar bone full RoM.)

Pendlay Row - 170x5

Wide Grip Pull ups + 75lbs on belt for x 5 reps. (25+ body weight, wide grip.)

Weighted Dips + 80lbs 3 sets of 8 reps. (over 40 body weight dips in one set.)

L - Sit: 20-30 seconds 

I can do a Front Lever Raise

And Muscle Ups with Kip

Russian Dips/Korean Dips/Swinging Dips

Can do two floor circles (lackluster form.)

Can do frontlever raises.

Did a straight arm straddle straight leg press to handstand

Tuck Planche for 10 seconds.

73 military push ups in 1 minute.

Wall Handstand - 1-2 mins+? Wall Handstand Pushups - over 10 after a lifting shoulders prior.

(Cannot hold a free standing handstand, working on that :\)

 

I currently workout 3 days a week with Bill Starr's 5x5 intermediate on M/W/F for about 1.5 hours.

(Will switch to T/Th/Sat when I begin training in Judo again, which is 2 hours a day, M/W/F, not very muscle intensive mostly cardio.)

which consists of:

 

Full Squat, BP, Pendlay Row on Monday & Friday (on Friday I do 3 sets of weighted dips, barbell curls, and skullcrushers, recently added 3x10 Russian Dips at the end.)

On Wednesdays I do light squats, Weighted Pull Ups, Overhead Press, Deadlift in sets of 4. (Also added Incline Barbell Press for 2x8 lowering the bar to neck/clavicle)

 

I added Front Lever progressions and L-sits on Monday, Planche Progressions and V-sits on Wednesday, and Handstand progressions with L-Sits again.

 

I'm starting to have elbow pain and tendonitis which reminds me of the pain I got when I was training as a Gymnast doing circles for hours on end.  I'm starting to think it was from all the straight arm work and dynamic movement involving me throwing my elbows forward (muscle up.)

 

I bought a pair of gymnastics rings, plan on building some parallettes, there is a park nearby my house with a pull up bar (I also own a door one.) and parallel bars.

 

I'm sorry this is a long post and it sounds like I'm tooting my own horn, but I would really appreciate some input from anyone who has successfully combined Powerlifting with Gymnastics training without over training.  Now that I might be starting Judo up again as well I would like to structure training so that I do not injure or hurt myself in the long term.  I use to do a bodybuilding split, but I prefer to train like an athlete/powerlifter and perform mostly compound lifts.  I have no idea what kind of volume I should have without over training or what exercises I should perform.  I also need exercises to help me improve my mobility so I can perform these exercises efficiently.

 

My goals:

Be able to advanced bodyweight exercises. (Planche, FL, Iron Cross, Handstands, Press Handstands etc.)

Gain strength without too much size and loss of mobility. (lb for lb strength, athletic performance (Judo.)

While still being able to increase my lifts or at least maintain them.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, Achieving these goals without injuring myself, I'm patient and don't care how long it takes me to achieve.

 

If I have to completely structure a new workout I am all for it, one thing I noticed is that there is not very much lower body work. When it comes to bodyweight exercises (that I know of.)  I've done pistol squats (those are really hard and hurt my knees because they bend over my feet.)

Any input would be appreciated!

 

Thanks, 

 

Stephen.

 

[Skoy91]

Bump.

[Connor Davies]

As far as lower body work strength training goes, there's basically just pistols and natural leg curls.

 

If you really want to combine weightlifting and gymnastics, the general consensus seems to be to combine gymnastics for the upper body with the Olympic lifts for the lower body.

 

There's a really great thread about it somewhere around here, do some searching...

[James Proce]

Stephen,

 

I am a powerlifter, 46yrs old, 210lbs, and working on a 500lb bench and currently 3 wks out from AAPF Nationals.  

 

I had the same idea as you to use the gymnastics skills to strengthen my shoulders in order to help with my benching.

 

The focus of these forums is specific to the different gymnastic skills and programs (sold thru the site). The vast majority of those people on the forum are focusing on the gymnastics skill and are not trying to cross train gymnastics skills and powerlifting

 

So, unless your questions are "SPECIFIC" to one of the gymnastic skills, you probably won't get the feedback you are looking for.

 

I will say this, from what I read, you do not seem like a "powerlifter" and i would say you are overtraining.  That's probaby why your elbows are hurting.

 

If you have any specifc questions related to powerlifting training you can send me a PM.  I can't really offer any advice about incorporating the gymnastics skills as I am still trying to figure that out.. I can tell ya what I am doing, but for skills specific questions, there are others on these forums that are much more knowledgeable than I am.

 

regards,

 

jim

[Parth Rajguru]

You won't achieve your goals by combining upper body weight training and gymnastics strength work: they are 2 very different stimuli that cause different adaptations. Pick one and train it. Iron crosses, full planche, etc. are not accomplished by people who never train for them.  It doesn't look like you're a competitive powerlifter, and your strength in the lifts aren't that high (in absolute terms). It would be quite easy to maintain/improve those numbers without training them at all.

 

Judo and other martial arts practitioners benefit greatly from the well-rounded development of the upper body that Gymnastic Strength Training™ provides. Martial arts should focus on weak links (such as scapular strength and grip strength) along with traditional, bent arm strength training.

 

I suggest you focus exclusively on Gymnastic Strength Training™ for a few months and test your weighted movements at the end. See where you are, and if you don't like the results/training, you can always switch back. I would recommend that you keep the weighted lower body training in. Olympic lifting and gymnastics are a potent combination for a complete athlete.

 

I suggest you do some reading on this forum. This topic has been answered a few times. Here are a few links to get you started:

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/2507-gymnastics-and-bodyweight-sc-supperior-to-weight-lifting/

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/53-gymnastic-work-vs-classical-strength-work/

[Skoy91]

I'm not a competitive power lifter, but I do consider myself a power lifter because I only train with a low rep scheme.  I have not tested one rep maxes in a very long time but I guess them to be anywhere from 1.5-2.5 times my bodyweight.  I'm also tall, people think that I weigh close to 175 when realistically I weigh 145-150.  My sensei use to make me practice with 175lb+ judoka, one time a 220lb because my strength level is so high and that I could compete at the 175lb lvl and do very well even though I weighed 145 at the time.

 

One question is that how will I be able to maintain the mass that I have if I'm repping well over my bodyweight in these lifts.  

 

For example chest, without being on the rings for 5 years I could still get on them and do 10 dips shoulder to fists while being very very sore from the workout the previous day.  The only thing I can think of is planche progressions, but it's a static hold and not a compound movement.  

 

Also with a horizontal pulling movement, I do row's at 90 degrees from the floor with well over my bodyweight, yet pulling from a tuck lever is considerably easy and the intensity is not there.  

 

For shoulder work I agree handstands are probably the best, but that is once I can do free standing handstand push ups, I do not have the balance, but can over hand press my bodyweight.  Wall handstand push ups are not difficult for me.

 

I do understand that I must keep deadlifts and squats in my routine, not doing so would be absolutely ridiculous.

 

I'm worried that there will not be enough intensity by strictly doing gymnastics upper body work and losing mass, because while I feel like I have the strength the balance and some core strength is not there.  For example I could do 200 push ups and 60 pull ups in a workout, but that will do very little for me in terms of top end strength/hypertrophy...

[Parth Rajguru]

The movements that you are easily able to perform (ring dips and tuck FL rows) are very basic. If you were talking about full lay front lever rows and planche pushups, that would be a different story. You are still only at a basic level of gymnastic strength. There are significantly harder bodyweight movements that can be trained. For example, you can do basic ring dips, but can you do RTO dips? How about tuck planche pushups? Adv tuck FL rows? Rope climbs? The list goes on and on, and each movement can be progressed to harder levels.

 

The reason that you can't hold a handstand is that you've never trained for it. It is a weak link and will hold you back in developing higher levels of gymnastic strength. It seems odd to me that after 6 years of gymnastics you are still unable to hold a handstand.

 

Again, I will make the suggestion: try training with gymnastics only for 3 months. Test your bench press and other lifts at the end of those 3 months. See what happens, evaluate your progress, and plan accordingly. The only way to know for sure is to do it. At the end of the day, if you want to be a better MOVER, the only way to do that is to MOVE. If you only want general strength, then powerlifting, bodybuilding, and even machine training will get you there. They are not optimal in my opinion, but if you don't care for mobility, balance, etc. (you seem to), then you don't need to use Gymnastic Strength Training™. If you are going to use Gymnastic Strength Training™, do not use powerlifting, it will not allow proper adaptation.

 

Look at the physiques of guys like Steve Atlas, Yuri Marmerstein (on the forum), Ido Portal, professional gymnasts, etc. They all are very muscular and lean. Gymnastic strength training absolutely supports muscle mass. Of course you need higher levels of strength for hypertrophy to occur, so stop pontificating and start training.

[Skoy91]

going from 105lbs to 145-150lbs mostly muscle, I'm about 8% bodyfat, really messed with some of my balance haha.  I can do those compound movements you said, tuck planche push up, adv FL row, I just cannot hold the static hold long enough to where I can rep it out.  I have the strength to do the compound movement for multiple reps but cant do the static hold for extended periods of time to actually perform multiple reps while keeping the tension on the muscle.  

 

What I am saying is if I could perform those movements it would give me enough intensity, but since I cannot hold those movements.  

I agree that it would be better for me to transition into those movements and drop upper body lifting once I can perform the static holds.

 

But in the meantime how would I progress the static holds a long with my weight lifting without injury.

[Parth Rajguru]

You obviously have weak straight arm scapular strength(SASS). Weight training doesn't transfer well to this area. But the problem with what you are suggesting is: you are aiming for a moving target. It's like having a clogged sink: you need to turn off the faucet before you can unclog the drain. WIth the approach you are suggesting, you will never catch up with your stronger bent arm strength. You have to realize that there is more than just strength that has to be developed with bodyweight training. Balance (not just in handstands), coordination, mobility, joint prep, etc. are all essential. A weak link in those will prevent you from moving forward.

 

Your goals ALL involve SASS, which you don't have much of. Your current training doesn't develop SASS. Either change your goals or change your training.

 

Focus on your weakest link (SASS) and maintain your bent arm strength. After 2 months, see where you are and plan accordingly. You will easily be able to maintain muscle mass while maintaining bent arm strength. In the mean time, prioritize your SASS and program accordingly. You can't make significant progress in too many areas at one time, you need to prioritize your training.

[Skoy91]

Actually, you are right, my SASS and core are very weak which is what I noticed after today's workout.  I will be focusing on those two elements.  Thank you for your time and input, Raja it is much appreciated!

[James Proce]

Training low reps DOES NOT make you a powerlifter...  take the advice previously given... Focus on weight training or gymnastics skills.  Based on what i've read, I'd suggest you stick to the gymnastics stuff...

[Jaros?aw Ruszkowski]

I'll write it once again. If somebody wants to add some weigthlifting to their gymnastic training, he should stick to barbell squats (back, front, zercher) and sometimes deadlifts. The whole upper body is stressed enough, that adding additional stimuli would create opportunity for the injury to happen.

[Connor Davies]

Alternatively, if your goals are more powerlifting orientated, you could focus almost entirely on powerlifting but include some static holds at the beginning of each workout....

[Blairbob]

"Training low reps DOES NOT make you a powerlifter." Yep. That might be more like Olympic Weightlifting. Powerlifting tends to vary from low reps for the big lifts and high reps on the assistance stuff besides juiced or geared or natural or non geared lifting.

 

 

 I, as well, would barely call you a PowerLifter. While it's true you are doing the strengthlifts, most Powerlifters be they conjugate users or other programming work out A LOT differently. Way more assistance exercises. It's kind of semantics really to call you a Weightlifter, Olympic Weightlifter, PowerLifter, etc. 

 

 I wouldn't do weighted dips and russian dips on the same day when you are probably overhead or bench pressing. Look into more lighter rep assistance work as 1 arm DB rows or presses. High rep scheme like 15 reps so the weight will be relatively light.

If you really want to develop these BW movements, I would go for something more of the like of BW for upper body and barbell/DB as assistance and the opposite for lower body- barbell for strength and DB/KB and BW as assistance.

Traditional Judo generally would use a lot of BW movements for strength but in recent times, simple barbell strength is often added such as squats and pressing and deadlifts and pullups (well that is BW).

Don't do kipping muscle-ups. Use a different progression. Those can be a bit harder on the elbows because of the quick motion powered by the kip.

But you are probably trying to do a lot of upper body with all the gymnastics straight arm stuff and bent arm stuff besides the barbell pressing.

I'd honestly switch to DB pressing either overhead or bench (neutral or turned out). Load is lighter than a barbell which is a good thing. Also works more of the stabilizers. Since you are not competing in Powerlifting, it's not a big deal to not use a barbell (besides the way a DB moves compared to a BB is different).

For now, try elevating your heels for pistols and work on ankle flexibility.

[Skoy91]

Update:

 

So I decided to lift two days a week and do upper body M/F and Lower Body T/TH with weightlifting all my Main Lifts have stayed the same. Lost a little size. 

 

Good news:

-is that I've moved to higher difficulty elements in all areas

-my joints and connective tissue feel better and stronger

-my arms have grown a lot (stubborn body part that would not grow) 

-considerably leaner

-most of all my core has become a lot stronger. 

 

Once I can perform the advanced elements, I don't think I'm going to need to do any weightlifting at all other than Deadlifts and Olympic Squats!  So glad I found this community.  Hopefully soon I can buy handstand one and the foundation series!

[Blairbob]

Pretty much, those are still good movements to do if you are doing Judo. Most judoka I know generally just bench, squat, and dead maybe power clean vs doing the olympic lifts.