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Jono

Muscle-ups without False Grip

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Jono

BtGB talks about how kipping/speeding through the transition is a sub-optimal technique but a necessary evil for beginners. Is the false grip also considered a sub-optimal technique regarding the muscle-up? If it is, then where does eliminating this grip take place in the progressions? Before wide grip? After?

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Tyler Gibson

I don't know what coach or most gymnastics coaches would have to say on the subject, but I consider false grip muscle ups to be beneficial rather than detrimental to progress. Performing false grip muscle ups from a dead hang requires a degree of strength and flexibility in the wrist and forearm. Also if you watch olympic gymnasts they all start their routines in a false grip.

 

As far as progression goes, I think coach usually advises mastering narrow, shoulder width, and wide muscle ups before moving on to more advanced variations like weighted muscle ups. 

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Piotr Ochocki

 Also if you watch olympic gymnasts they all start their routines in a false grip.

But not because they want to impress with harder version of muscle-up ;), just because they need false grip for the "proper" stuff they will be doing in their routine.

 

Jono - just don't worry about that, first get good muscle ups (no kip, eliminate pike, etc), then try wider ones (all with false grip), when you get to this level and your elbows will be fine then you can play with no false grip ones if you want, but when you get to that level of strength you will most likely be concentrating on more interesting stuff on rings than no false grip muscle-ups.

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Joshua Slocum

There are a lot of ways to augment the difficulty of the muscle-up: wide-arms, no lean, L-sit, and no false grip all make the muscle-up harder. There's really no structured progression for adding these on. If you've mastered the false grip muscle-up, you can try a harder variation. If you've mastered several harder variations, you can try combining them. Ultimately I wouldn't focus too much on muscle-up variations, though. There are several leaps in difficulty that are hard to bridge with just muscle-up work, and there are a lot of other strength areas that you need to devote time to as well. Maintain a healthy variation in the movements that you train, and revisit harder muscle-ups every few cycles when you feel you've made significant gains in strength.

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Jono

Thanks. I have an obsession with MUs at the moment. I can do shoulder width rings/bar with no hip pike, just a forward lean. I'll move onto wide grip soon.

 

The reason for so many questions lately is that today someone commented on my shoulder width false grip reps saying "next step: no false grip" and it got me confused. I was thinking "don't you mean wide grip next?"

 

Having only recently switched over from "calisthenics", I'm unaware of most ring moves lol. I'm hoping to completely switch over to gymnastic style training ASAP. The only things I have in mind at the moment are going through the MU progressions, nailing a legit dead hang OAC, and going through the static progressions using the steady state programming. I'll develop a better program in the future hopefully.

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Alessandro Mainente

in my opinion the mu without false grip exists in the most of cases with kip. the reason is that is not possible switch the grip if you grab the bar/rings with  the finger. 

what you can do is use a sort of half-false grip, the idea is not maintain the rings bar over the wrist but grab the bar/ring with the entire palm of the hands in this was i can do the transition without change the grip. i use them on the rings simply because i need to pull more down then with false grip and of course i need more strength.

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Brian Li

in my opinion the mu without false grip exists in the most of cases with kip. the reason is that is not possible switch the grip if you grab the bar/rings with  the finger. 

what you can do is use a sort of half-false grip, the idea is not maintain the rings bar over the wrist but grab the bar/ring with the entire palm of the hands in this was i can do the transition without change the grip. i use them on the rings simply because i need to pull more down then with false grip and of course i need more strength.

Slow MUs without the "half-false grip" and false grip are possible too. I've done them before even starting with neutral wrists. The idea is to start flexing the wrists to get more of the palms (only upper palm and not the whole palm) above the bar/rings during the transition to get into a support grip for the dip. It's crazy hard and the degree of wrist flexion you start with from hang changes the difficulty dramatically with neutral wrists being the hardest. The "half-false grip" slow MU you were talking about is not much more difficult than slow false grip MUs and is a progression towards the true no-false grip slow MU even though its nowhere near as difficult.

 

Check this thread to read more about the slow no false grip MUs:

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/9017-slow-no-false-grip-muscle-ups/?hl=%2Bslow+%2Bfalse+%2Bgrip+%2Bmuscle

 

 

 

To the OP: I can't answer your questions, but I remember Coach Sommer saying that when you get to the point where you can do wide no lean MU without the false grip then the use of MUs as conditioning would be very far far behind you.

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Alessandro Mainente

i call what you are showing in the vids the half false grip. usually i do the pull movement using only the fingers to grab the support so the palm is never involved. the only one time i did the mu starting from fingers grip i got a little injury on the wrists. so i prefer to to do a movement with less stress as possible...

but i'm not saying that the NO false grip MU doesn't exist..is very hard to do

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Brian Li

Did you do a MU with only fingers before? I mean how can you dip with only fingers and no palm? Have you personally seen or heard of someone who've done a true no false grip MU without the "half-false grip" then? I would like to know if it's even possible.

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Alessandro Mainente

no never...i tried it but during the movement to reach the transition the sensation over the wrist was bad! i don't know anyone who can do that!

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Brian Li

I almost freaked out when I thought you said you've done slow MUs with only fingers lol. I don't think it could be possible with only fingers as how would you get to support without palms?

 

Now what about a slow MU with only neutral or extended wrists through the entire transition and no false grip? Do you think that would be possible? I've tried to do that many times and always failed. I always have to flex the wrists to get into support or else failure...

 

The best I've done with slow no false grip MUs are starting with neutral wrists (irc) and flexing to where the rings ran diagonally from upper palm to upper middle palm to get to support. I also paused before initiating the transition if that made any difference. They were extremely difficult and I think I only managed 2-3 consecutive ones. Sometimes the first one would feel easy, but I will fail all the subsequent reps.

 

The hardest part of this type of MU is changing from hang grip to support grip, the transition still requires more strength than false grip MUs of course. I'm not sure how beneficial this type of MU is, but I don't think it transfers well to a no lean wide MU like Andreas's. However when I got to this level, slow false grip MUs (narrow and wide-ish ones) were a joke and I could basically sleep in the transition.

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Jono

I think I know what you mean about needing to flex the wrist starting from a neutral grip. I don't think it'd be possible with fingers, unless you adjusted on the way up.

 

I can't wait 'til going through the transition on wide reps feels like nothing. I have the same problem as you. My stairway bar will limit how wide I can go, but I'll still be able to go pretty wide when the time comes.

 

When you say you aren't sure how beneficial the no false grip MU is, and how it probably doesn't transfer over to no lean reps, that's what I was thinking at the time. I got confused by the guy who said "next step: no false grip". I will progress to wide grip throughout the year hopefully.

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Brian Li

It's because I was doing them narrow and some slightly outside shoulder width grip which requires some extent of leaning to get through. The wide no lean MU requires an even wider grip I believe so that's why think it won't transfer greatly. Of course, there should still be some decent or at least some transfer to the wide no lean one. Technique could be different too. Also, the hardest part of the slow no FG MUs I was talking about were in the ability to switch from hang grip to support grip.

 

Well, slow no false grip is a step above slow false grip ones as it is significantly harder depending on variation and degree of wrist flexion.

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Jono

I tried a slow wide bar muscle-up today for the first time. They were pretty wide (didn't think my stairway pull-up bar would allow it). I can do them, but I need a small hip pike. Going to stick to regular shoulder width until I can do 3x5 with no hip pike. I can probably already do that, but it'd be a big strain. When it gets easier I'll move to wide.

 

One thing I noticed during the wide rep was that my elbows were to the sides (like the Aguilar MU), and I was pressing down much differently to the narrower variations. It felt pretty awesome actually.

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Brian Li

Nice! With or without a false grip? 

 

About ditching slow no false grip MUs, I think you shouldn't dismiss them so fast because wide no lean MUs could also be done slow without a false grip, but you might want to develop one with a false grip first.

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Jono

With a false grip. :P  I don't think my wrists would like it if I'd tried one with no FG (I might not even be able to do a no FG wide rep yet). Having said that, I think I can do a no FG MU with a shoulder width grip, but wide might be pushing it at the moment. This was the width I was doing. My elbows came close to the wall, but it's just about ok.

 

http://s16.postimage.org/i8024quc5/3_16_2013_001.jpg

 

I was thinking I should move to no FG after I've become proficient at wide, as I don't want to stick at shoulder width for too long.

 

I've been thinking really far ahead, to how I'm going to make them even wider in the future. I could do it on the park I guess. Coach said that the wider you get, the more it begins to mimic the straight arm pull to iron cross; so does that mean I should be working towards eventually doing them with a super wide grip (i.e. a few inches of pull-up ROM)?

 

I'll post a video when I'm better at them!

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BodyTrain

I have an question.

Today I got my rings (so happy about it) and tried the MU without false grip and was far away from doing it. But on a bar I can peform 4-6 reps. So are the ring MU´s much harder than on a bar ? Or is it just me ?

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Jono

I'm pretty sure that slow bar MUs are harder than slow ring MUs for pretty much everybody, but I could be wrong. Were you using speed/momentum, or going slow through the transition?

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Jono

Tried the non-FG earlier today. Kind of rushed because I didn't want to tire myself out. Huge forward lean. I don't think it's possible to stay on "fingers" either lol

 

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Brian Li

Very nice Jono! Those are really hard especially with an even slower tempo. Have you tried it on rings yet. I don't think that lean was really huge for a bar muscle-up. It looked about standard. A no lean one would have to be done with a triceps intense dip at mid-transition or a wide grip on rings.

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Jono

Thanks! I think I can do them slower, but it does make it a bit harder. Not tried it on rings yet! I found that the more slippery the grip is, the easier it is. My bar is quite slippery, so I guess that helped.

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Alessandro Mainente

great job i think that the palm grip is good to try that version. i could do that on rough bar and is difficult change the grip as you are doing. on the other side on smooth bar is easier

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Brian Li

Yes, a smoother grip definitely makes it easier to switch from hanging grip to support grip.

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Jono

I think if I allowed my grip to switch before trying to do the transition, I'd be able to do it with zero hip pike.

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