Dumbbell Swings

[Jason Wu]

In BtGB, Coach mentions that one of his athletes was able to achieve a straddle planche after a period of time (I believe it was 6 weeks) doing dumbbell swings 2-3 times a week for 3-4 sets of 10 on each arm, whereas this was previously out of his reach due to a weak lower back. This is very helpful information, but does anyone know the weight of the dumbbell this athlete was using?

[Joshua Naterman]

You don't really think that matters, do you?

 

Swings are a nice warm up movement, but there's no magic number. I can do swings with 75 lbs easily, other people may struggle with 40.

Like anything else, you will get stronger as time goes on. Don't focus on numbers, and don't focus on the swings.

 

Focus on your foundation work, and if you think that swings will help you then put them in your warm ups.

[Chris Hobbs]

My interpretation of the swings was that it addressed a weak link and all of the other work was already put in. So, unless you have a weakness in the area that those swings would address I wouldn't expect similar benefits.

 

- Chris

[Jaros?aw Ruszkowski]

I'm doing swing workout after my F1 training to add some cardio and maintain my deadlift strength. But my main focus is to do perfect F1 workouts each time. If there is some doubt about my form i'm not doing anything.

For strength - add some (4-5) sets of 10 dead swings with weigth about 30% of your bodyweigth.

But i must mention that you should do swings ONLY if you know how to do them. They can hurt your lower back without proper form.

[Jason Wu]

My question wasn't worded very clearly. You are definitely right that there is "no magic number" that will work for people of any weight; obviously, if you weigh 200+ pounds then 75 pound dumbbell swings would perhaps just feel like a warmup to you, but this would be completely different story for someone who weighs a mere 120 pounds or so (like me!).

I was really asking what dumbbell weight - relative to my own bodyweight - would be appropriate if I wanted to start building sufficient lower back strength for the straddle planche like the athlete that Coach describes, assuming I already have the necessary shoulder girdle strength. I am currently nearing the end of a 6x10 sec advanced tuck SSC, so perhaps it is a bit premature for me to already begin thinking about building lower back strength for the sPL. However, BtBG says that progressions past the advanced tuck are generally the point where lower back strength starts to be the limiting factor in planche work, so I wanted to get started early.

I'm doing the dumbbell swings purely as a supplement for my foundation work; they are not replacing anything. However, even though it is "just" supplemental work I still intend to take it seriously as a part of my training, and this means following the template that Coach prescribes in BtBG. He says that they are an "excellent supplement" to planche training, and I am inclined to believe him. Because of that, I actually think it matters very much to follow the reps and sets (the "numbers") that he lays out; however, the only missing element for me is the weight of the dumbbell that I should be shooting for as a goal.

Edit: Didn't see your reply, Gray - thanks for the help!

[Joshua Slocum]

The side-lever training in foundation 1 and the mobility elements for straddle-planche should be all the back conditioning you need. Is there any reason you want more than that? It's quite a bit already and if you do much more you'll be liable to hurt your back. 

[Joshua Naterman]

I'm not sure where the 30% of BW comes from, but why not 40% or 50%? I think that this kind of goal has the potential to detract from the focus on the basics.

 

To me, all the mobility elements like Xiaopengs, windmills, and if you perform them, db/kb swings, all are done to wake up the body and teach it movements. When a weight feels too easy, I grab (or make) a heavier one. I don't have specific goals, and I'm not particularly convinced that any specific goal is ideal when it comes to these things. Specific numeric or percentile goals tend to have people focusing on a specific long-term thing, when the reality is that as long as proper form is observed, and sufficient food is eaten, strength will increase and the weight will go up periodically.

 

There's no way to know how many people swings will help, maybe a lot or maybe very few, but I like them and use them in warm ups at least once per week. I have no goals for them, never have, and never will. You don't need lots of sets. You'll be better off doing one set in your warm up than you will be if you try to do 2-3 sets of however many reps, simply because there is already a good bit of work done that covers much of this area. One set per training day is enough to see benefits, but not enough to detract from the main work.

 

That was the intent of my message.

[Peter Sbirakos]

Swings are an interesting beast. Many strongmen in the early 1900's performed feats of strength with extremely heavy one arm dumbbell swings. You can search the 'net and see plenty of historical pictures. A lot of these men went on tour displaying these and other feats. From around the 1980s, the one arm swing (note, one arm, not two arm) evolved as a supplementary exercise along with other supplementary exercises such as squats, deadlifts plus running to assist the Girevoy Sport lifters. The intent of the sport is to last 10mins for a given kettlebell(s) in either the biathlon or the longcycle event, most reps wins. So training involved high volume low intensity jerks and snatches done with a slow tempo and as competition approached, training would change to high intensity low volume work done with a fast tempo. To be sure, it is a brutal and tough sport. And also to be sure, champion Girevoy Sport Lifters have a phenomenal work capacity. Imagine continuously jerking 2x32kgs for 10mins straight?!

But coming back to swings, they are used simply as a supplementary exercise to develop additional work capacity for the sport of Girevoy ie generally a heavier kb to what one would jerk or snatch in competition done for reps.

[Joshua Naterman]

That is a really, really awesome bit of history. I don't know anything about Girevoy. Very interesting, thanks!

[Nic Branson]

GS events today for men consist typically of :

 

Long Cycle 2 KB clean and Jerk for 10 minutes. You set the bells down and you're done.

 

Biathlon: Snatches with a single bell ONE hand switch allowed no setting the bell down for 10 minutes. Arm with the lowest reps is counted. Then with a minimum of an hour break you do Jerks. Two bells from rack to overheads for total reps in 10 minutes.

 

Womens events are slightly different.

 

Swings are used for general endurance work and some heavy work for power. One note 30% of BW is ridiculusly light even for a novice unless they are very overweight. That will quickly be passed, even for high repitition work.

 

NOTE: Posted for some clarity this is not really a GST discussion at this point. If you wish to continue this discussion I will move the topic to a more aproppriate forum.

[Peter Sbirakos]

Girevoy is still very much a fringe sport. Although there are many kettle bell enthusiasts out there, (whereever out there is) there are not that many training in Girevoy and even fewer attempting competition. I'm part of the Australian Girevoy Sport Association (paid member) and I would hazard a guess that there are less than 200 members in the whole country.

But it's just another sport that has its fan base and like any other sport, it takes time to master it. Stating the obvious, right?

Nic, your call on whether to move this thread.