One Arm Push Up And Chin Training...

Hi all.  First I want to the Coach Sommer for making all that professional knowledge available to us, as well as this great forum.  

I have a question about one arm push and one arm chin training.  I can't do either, and it's my goal to do at least the OAP before I move up to more complex skills.  My biggest dream right now is to be able to do a OAC.  

Right now, I am stuck in my routine.  I was doing Pavel's GTG with both the OAP and OAC.  For OAP, I was doing one hand assisted OAP, (one arm out to the side excerting as little force as needed). For OAC I was doing assisted OAC as recommened in BTGB, using a towel and putting my assisting arm 7 fists down the towel.  Both of these I was doing close to max singles as often as I could, but wasn't seeming to make any progress, as well as getting fatigued and easily injured.  

So now I am wondering if I should follow the steady state program in BTGB, that is, just do 3 x 3 or 3 x 5 reps 3 days a week, and continue doing that for 8 to 12 weeks, adding reps if needed, until later you move on to a harder version.

So basically that would mean doing less intense assisted OAC and OAP, for example, 4 fists instead of 7 fists, and more force on the supporting hand with assisted OAP for 3x3 or 3x5 reps.

Any ideas or suggestions?

In terms of Gymnastic Strength Training™, both one arm pushups and one arm chins are two skills that unfortunately have very little carryover for upper level Gymnastic Strength Training™ elements and your time would be much more productively spent focusing elsewhere.

The one arm chins in particular were disappointing in terms of GST.  Formerly my athletes alternated days on these with reverse muscle ups and I came to find out that they vastly preferred the one arm chin days - because they were so much easier!

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

All you are doing is progressions to OAP+OAC? If so, that's a very imbalanced routine that neglects vertical pushing and horizontal pulling.

The way I got my OAP was to progressively lower my hands until I was doing it close to the ground. Smith machine, power rack, boxes, chairs, stairs, anything works.

OAC I would get stronger at regular chins before doing any dedicated work.

Thanks for the reply. 

I know it seems imbalanced.  I am also doing v-ups (feet to head, back against flat surface), and was doing one leg squats until I got a knee injury.  As soon as my knee gets better I will start working the legs again.

 I have to admit, I am just obsessed with those two movements.  In terms of pure strength upper body strength, aren't they the pinnacle?  Or maybe I'm mistaken.  I thought at a OAC was much harder than a muscle up.  I just want to get these down before I start any dedicated skill work, such as planche, lever, etc.  The last time I tried to train both at the same time I got easily fatigued.

What was your routine for OAP?  Normal 3x3 sets or GTG?  As for chins, I can do about around 15 normal chins.

The OAC is a good pulling goal, but so is the Front Lever or the Iron Cross. A strict, legs together OAP is good too, but it has little carryover to Planche Push-ups and the like.

At the time I trained for my OA Push up (2009, I think) I knew very little about programming. I remember setting the bar to hip height, which gave me about 6 confortable reps before failure, and just did it. Something like 3 to 5 sets of 6. Probably stayed at the same intensity for a couple of weeks, and lowered it over the course of a month or two. When I tried it on the ground, I had it.

For OAC you can work on your weighted chin-ups up to 50-66% BW added before you start working on one arm negatives, to ensure connective tissue strength. Or work with the progressions outlined in BtGB book. There is a thread discussing it here: https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/4102-oap-oac-discussion/

Hmmm, that's interesting. Maybe it's improper execution but I personally find the inverted MU to be somewhat easier than the OAC. Still like it better though

MirrorMaze said:

  I thought at a OAC was much harder than a muscle up. 

It is. Coach was talking about the reverse muscle-up, AKA elevator.

How about this new workout:  (I haven't self tested where I am on these progressions yet but just listing the goals).  

M, T, Th, F

FBE                                     FSP  

Day  1:    HSPU/ OAC             handstand

Day  2:    v-ups / legs             manna

Day  3:     OAP/ row                back lever

Day 4:       dips/curls?             front lever

Routine would be steady state, 3x3-5 reps for 8 to 12 weeks, test, then move up the progression as appropriate.  For FSP, 10 x 6 seconds  (60s to 90s rest in between sets) for 8 to 12 weeks until a test.  FSP done before each FBE.

In the book, Coach says to pair a pull with a push, and a core with legs on each workout instead of just "waiting around for the next set", but wouldn't doing so result in overtraining since the time between say, Day3 OAP/OAC and Day 4 rows is too short?  

I'm trying my best to make sense of the Coach's knowledge and apply them to my goals, I would appreciate any advice on my routine.

I think you need to switch around the day 1 and 2 FSP.

Coach Sommer said:

The one arm chins in particular were disappointing in terms of GST.  Formerly my athletes alternated days on these with reverse muscle ups and I came to find out that they vastly preferred the one arm chin days - because they were so much easier!

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Out of curiosity, were your athletes doing real full OACs or assisted OACs and what were you having them do OACs for? I'm assuming biceps tendon and elbow conditioning based on the comparison with inverted MUs. If that's the case then I agree that they aren't as good as the inverted curls since OACs are more of a pulling exercise (back musculature than elbow flexors).

Full FL rows > OACs

I remember being able to do legs together one arm push-ups without training them and just by training things like planche and I also had some decent triceps strength from overhead triceps extensions. I've also gotten OAC without really training them and mainly training other pulling exercises like FL, but I its quite variable between people. I'm sure it can happen with a well rounded gymnastics strength base and program.

If you have the book, just go up the progressions normally, with time you'll be able to do them. I just tried them for fun a couple weeks ago and to my surprise, could do them pretty easily, hell, I can do them with one leg up, and also do them plyo style jumping and switching hands in the air. No need for specialized training, start with building the basics and you'll nail one arm push ups easily. I mean, I'm only up to the XR PPP pluses ( which are WAY harder than a one arm push up btw...). I can only imagine the amount of strength it takes to do planche push ups...one day...

Yeah, I agree.  Looking back on my routine it was too unbalanced and too focused on just one move.  I'm sure that with a new well balanced routine I'll get to OAP easily and much more.

Thanks for all the replies.

One arm push-ups aren't even the pinnacle of non-gymnastics bodyweight upper body pushing exercises, one arm dips are harder.

B1214N said:

One arm push-ups aren't even the pinnacle of non-gymnastics bodyweight upper body pushing exercises, one arm dips are harder.

I'm focusing on OAC and OAP because I believe these two moves (along with the pistol) have the advantages of being able to confer a lifetime of strength while being very convenient; able to be done any time and place (OAC you could just find a tree branch when walking about).  Moves such as the reverse muscle up or some others that require rings don't have the same convenience, and thus, lose their power in my mind, (but obviously don't lose their worth as builders of fitness and strength when you can do them). 

But I also see the value in doing a well-rounded workout and other static moves (which can also be done pretty much anywhere).  I suppose a one arm dip could be done just about anywhere as well... if you could do that for reps without injury I'd go for it.

you can do planche push ups anywhere you could do a one arm push up.   Although the planche will require significant amount of time more to achieve it also requires considerably more strength.

Even a tuck or flat tuck version of it would be a better goal I think.

Straddle press to handstand or 90 degree pushups are far more beastly pushing goals in my mind.  They're my dream, anyway.

As for the OAC, I'm not even going to start training it until I have a pretty solid front lever.

If you really want to do a one arm pushup, spread your legs as far as you can and twist your whole torso toward the pushing arm.  It'll be ugly as hell and barely count, but you'll get it out of your system.  I suppose you could work that and try to get your feet closer together, less twisting and such.

I'm not really sure how the gymnastics community (well, this forum) feels about starting ugly and perfecting your form later on.  I know they dissaprove for handstands.

Bipocni said:

... I'm not really sure how the gymnastics community (well, this forum) feels about starting ugly and perfecting your form later on.  I know they dissaprove for handstands ...

Being unable to perform something with at least reasonably good execution is a sure sign that you are in over your head and in all likelihood have skipped multiple pre-requisites.  Garbage does not magically turn into gold later, it remains garbage forever.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer said:

In terms of Gymnastic Strength Training™, both one arm pushups and one arm chins are two skills that unfortunately have very little carryover for upper level Gymnastic Strength Training™ elements and your time would be much more productively spent focusing elsewhere.

 

The one arm chins in particular were disappointing in terms of GST.  Formerly my athletes alternated days on these with reverse muscle ups and I came to find out that they vastly preferred the one arm chin days - because they were so much easier!

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

This is a very interesting aside. Would you mind elaborating on this?

I read this as being that you had high hopes for the potential of dedicated OAC work, but was disappointed by the lack of carryover in strength gain. Is that correct? And if so, what does that mean for the inclusion of assisted OAC in pulling/max bent arm days for those not ready for reverse MU training? Replacing them with cirques or more difficult rope climbs maybe?

I remember way back in the day when I read the Naked Warrior, I thought one arm pushups were cool, but I was able to master them fairly quickly and since haven't done them for years. 

I recently did a write-up for a friend that included some one arm pushup progressions so I had to bust them out again.  After a good amount of time training much harder pushing movements like planche pushups, handstand pushups, and hollowback press I can say that one arm pushups are useless. 

They are just awkward.  The pushup in general is a movement that has so many possibilities to cheat it, the OAP just multiplies them. 

More so, I have trained with hand balancers who can lower and kick up from crocodile, which is basically OAP to the extreme, and they have never done OAP to train for it. 

As far as one arm chin goes, a properly executed one with full ROM is very impressive, but it is a rarity.  It still seems more of a party trick than anything else.  Rope climb has a much greater carryover to pretty much everything else you can do. 

With Yuri's comments above on this. You just don't see a good carryover...

yuri said:

More so, I have trained with hand balancers who can lower and kick up from crocodile, which is basically OAP to the extreme, and they have never done OAP to train for it. 

This may be off topic but what exactly is a Crocodile? I just have difficulty imagining it

Robmob said:

This may be off topic but what exactly is a Crocodile? I just have difficulty imagining it

A one arm elbow lever.

Charm said:

This is a very interesting aside. Would you mind elaborating on this?

I read this as being that you had high hopes for the potential of dedicated OAC work, but was disappointed by the lack of carryover in strength gain. Is that correct? And if so, what does that mean for the inclusion of assisted OAC in pulling/max bent arm days for those not ready for reverse MU training? Replacing them with cirques or more difficult rope climbs maybe?

I would like to hear Coach's opinion too! In my opinion, the OAC and the inverted curl of the inverted MU should not be compared to each other even though you may categorize them as both bent arm "pulling" exercises. The reason is because the OAC is a compound pulling exercise that involves the lats and rear delts more than the biceps and the inverted curl is more of an isolation exercise that uses the biceps and elbow flexors as the prime movers and other muscles as stabilizers. I consider the two to be in different categories.

I believe rope climbs wouldn't be much different than OACs because cirques are basically a series of assisted OACs followed by a series of OAC negatives both alternating arms, but with a harder grip. Doing cirques won't get you the inverted curl or inverted MU, but both do help condition the elbows and bicep tendons for more advanced GST straight arm exercises.