The Post Workout Window

[gravy]

I'd like to discuss the post workout window aka anabolic window. If you have anything to say, please provide something to back up your claims (research/studies).

My stance: If you have a good preworkout meal and have some glucose intake during the workout, there's no need to freak out if you're unable to immediately chug down some brotein. The body doesn't magically stop muscle protein synthesis 30 minutes post workout. Muscles are still sensitive to protein intake up to 24 hours after training.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19478342

Furthermore, the body preferentially breaks down carbohydrates, then fats, and ultimately protein if the former two are depleted.

www.virtualmedicalcentre.com/anatomy/metabolism/26

simple explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starvation_response#Process

Exercise depletes carbohydrate stores, and as many have mentioned in the past, carbohydrates are the most important thing to have after exercise. But even so, a solid pre workout meal and glucose intake during training eliminates the need for urgent carbohydrate/protein consumption; granted that you're not doing prolonged, intense exercise (marathon, triathalon).

If you're unfamiliar, this might be helpful: Some background to get familiar with metabolism and terminology.

[alec_ar]

Cool stuff. Personally I am a huge fan of juicing--for overal health, wellness and fitness. There's nothing that I love more than to have an intensive, carb-sucking workout and then juice up a nice variety of fruits and veggies. It increases the pump! Lately for me it's been beets, pineapples, grapes and pomegranates. Seems to be a pretty potent mixture.

Some fruits and veggies, I believe grapes in particular, tend to be high in carbs so I think it's a decent approach post-workout. The bromelain in pineapples is a wonder for tissue healing, and I personally believe that juicing these mixed with the blood strengthening beets really speeds up recovery time (and injury time when that unfortunately happens). There's also been studies that suggest the enzymes found in raw foods like fruits, veggies etc...also can help build collagen and strengthen connective tissues I'll usually add a whey and amino acid blend for the additional nutrition. That's my post-workout routine anyway!

[gravy]

Cool story.. But you didn't comment on the anabolic window.

[alec_ar]

Yea my comment probably doesn't really fit here except for your point about exercise eating up carbs and the body needing carbs post workout. I don't have anything in depth to add about the anabolic window post workout other than the fact that my personal view is that replenishing my systems with juicing/whey seems to help me stay anabolic, pumped and energized post-workout. Just posted that to add my two cents on what to consume after a workout but since it seems like you're picky on the types of responses you want, I'll relocate my energies elsewhere.

[gravy]

Anyone have counter arguments/evidence against my post?

[Cole Dano]

I'm absolutely not an expert on this. Hopefully Josh will have some facts and figures for you.

My understanding of the window is that it's not that urgent to fuel up within seconds of workout completion. The windows duration is approximately three hours long. So that's far from urgent.

I don't think there is any doubt that the body will use protein whenever it gets it, but the uptake to muscle is better during the window. However the uptake of carbs to muscle is vastly better during the window, which is why it is the time to consume high GI carbs. With low GI carbs be preferred at other times.

I like that juicing idea BTW! Man I need to get a juicer!

[gravy]

Where'd you get the 3 hour window from? Any source possibly?

And does anyone have any findings on this topic? I still hear a lot of talk about the "30 minute post-workout window" in forums and real life.

[Larry Roseman]

I'm going by memory here, and memory that has been year by year becoming more "flexible", but here's my take. Most of the talk about this window is theoretical. Meaning, there have been no studies comparing over a long-term, muscle development of different groups featuring use of varying anabolic windows or no window at all. What has been noted is that a certain amount of daily protein and energy per kg is required in order to maintain and develop new muscle tissue (and even that amount is subject to debate). In terms of protein, you probably know it starts at .8g/kg and goes up from there to 2.2g/kg or so.

What we do have are studies, of various exercise protocols under varying conditions that show that muscle protein synthesis (MPS) increases following resistance exercise when protein or protein + carbs are consumed. First note that during resistance exercise within the exercised muscle MPS drops to virtually nil, and takes about an hour for to change from that baseline. It seems the reason that MPS stops during resistance exercise is that the machinery of the cell is largely recruited for energy generation and not for manufacturing and folding proteins during exercise. That "delay" until MPS resumes is often what is refered to as the start of the anabolic window. So to make the most of that window, it is best to have some AA in circulation when that MPS starts up again.

Studies though, often are fasted, meaning that there are no fresh amino acids in circulation or in the amino acid pool in between muscle cells (interstitial fluid). In real life you typically will have had a meal within a few hours, and there will be residual AA available. So when the machinery kicks into MPS gear, there will be something for it to work with. In which case, if you are not fasting before exercise the start of the window is less of an urgency, typically.

Fasting studies,from what I recall, do show that after 3 hours injestion of protein will cause MPS to rise in most subjects. However, older subjects (50+) may not have a response with this long of a delay , and 1-2 hours is more appropriate.

The far side of the window is also subject to debate. I've read that up to 48 hours MPS can be elevated.

However this has also been desribed as only for new trainees or people who were detrained and are re-training. In other cases I've read 24-36 hours. Josh recently refered to 24 hours for training to failure and 6 hours for not. I don't personally always have access to the exercise protocols in the abstracts however that sounds reasonable. It coincides pretty well with the average duration of digestion of a mixed meal as well.

In theory the timing of protein after workouts *should* make a difference to long-term muscle protein acretion but it's not proven (by controlled studies) that it does that I'm aware of. In practice, it's a common belief and it seems to help. Quite clearly even with a shorter 6 hour period of elevated sensitivity following exercise there is a good chance you will find some part of that with meal-derived amino acids. And even without exercise MPS will rise following meals and both could explain partly why the start of the window may not matter quite as much as we think it does.

So in short, if you have the opportunity to eat before or right after a workout by all means do, but don't sweat it if you don't. As long as you hit your daily macros you should be fine. Until proven otherwise that is!

Note also that MPS accounts for about 80% protein balance equation. 20% is accounted by protein catabolism (destruction). Using strategies that reduce protein catabolism, such as appropriate use of carbs and/or casien, and keeping pure cardio sessions under 50 minutes - stuff like that should also make a difference - in theory.

[Joshua Naterman]

Where'd you get the 3 hour window from? Any source possibly?

And does anyone have any findings on this topic? I still hear a lot of talk about the "30 minute post-workout window" in forums and real life.

Yes.

The second article you reference specifically mention failure.

protein ingestion stimulated rates of myofibrillar protein synthesis above fasting rates by 0.016 ± 0.002%/h and the response was enhanced 24 h after resistance exercise' date=' but only in the 90FAIL and 30FAIL conditions[/quote']

Notice it is only the fail groups please.

The first doesn't actually say very much except that there's nothing special about taking protein by itself, which is well established in all literature.

There is also a literal s#%tpile of literature for you to read in pubmed about comparing protein + carbs to just protein or just carbs on resting protein synthesis as well as post-workout protein synthesis. If you want references, go search for "carbohydrate+protein drink muscle gain" or something like that. I'm not going to quote half of Pubmed on this. There is, however, one link a few paragraphs down.

The bottom line of that research is simply that if you don't have protein and carbs together, it doesn't really matter which one your body gets in isolation: the effect will be the same.

This is exactly what was found here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17313263

Protein + creatine + amino acids PWO are no different than carbs PWO.

Can you tell me what the problem is? Don't worry, I'll save you one reply. The problem is that they did not even think, or thought but chose not to, include a group that got the carbs + protein.

Do you know why? Because that research already freaking exists and they KNOW that the protein + carb beverage works better for overall nitrogen balance and muscle building! The two main reasons are simply that you are 1) fulfilling calorie requirements with the carbs which allows the protein to be used nearly exclusively as a muscle-building substrate instead of a possible energy source and 2) the large insulin spike significantly reduces muscle protein breakdown. It appears that the muscle protein breakdown suppression is most likely the single largest contributor between the two, especially if you are otherwise consuming enough food and protein.

Of course, the carbs also help replace what you burn during exercise and this significantly enhances recovery.

source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3464665/ This also happens to support my idea that you need to KEEP eating plenty of moderate doses of protein (20-30g) quite often throughout the rest of the day you work out, and preferably for up to 24 hours (in cases of high volume and/or training to failure).

It ALSO shows that immediately PWO is when you get the GREATEST increase in muscle protein synthesis.

I don't know how many times I'm going to say this, probably a lot between now and they day the internet capsizes, but you need carbs and protein together to get the most substantial results.

If you happen to have proteins active in your blood when you take your PWO carb drink, assuming you're smart and make it a 6% solution to maximize absorption speed, you will probably not have to take protein with the carbs.

However, knowing that whey's active blood time is something like 90 minutes from ingestion, if you have gone more than 90 minutes then it might be a good idea to take more whey... especially if you took your whey right before a 90 minute workout without enough energy in your Pre-WO meal/shake along with your intra-workout shake to offset what you burn.

More evidence in favor of professionals realizing nutrient timing mattering:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21793766

Evidence showing that researchers are slowly moving towards exactly what I am telling you is the likely relationship regarding energy sourcing and PWO meal:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17402492 Please read the last sentence in the conclusion twice.

Reference for not having a giant serving of protein:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19699838

Offtopic reference:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22000743 This one simply points out somewhere in the middle of the abstract that low carb diets do not enhance endurance performance.

Finally, you need to try and keep in mind that these numbers will change with body size and workout volume/intensity.

If you don't go to failure, OR you don't have a large volume of non-failure work, you see a shorter "anabolic window."

This is why I personally will always advocate regular training to failure: You have a larger period of enhanced muscle protein synthesis to take advantage of and that means better gains if you eat right.

Since I will never advocate NOT eating right there's no sense in me not advocating training to failure.

Training to failure also gives you more of an opportunity to lessen the impact of not being able to eat right away PWO since research shows enhanced protein synthesis for at least 24 hrs and up to 48 hours in some cases.

Non-failure workouts cause you to return to baseline muscle protein synthesis response much more quickly, within 4-6 hours. (obviously this is mediated to some extent by volume: 20 sets is going to give you a longer recovery window than 5 sets on the same muscle groups).

If you miss 4 hours of a 24-48 hour window, it's whatever: You've still got 20-44 hours of goodness.

If you miss 4 hours of a4 hour window, well... you f-ed up son.

See what I mean?

[gravy]

source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3464665/

This is exactly what I wanted. Thank you.

Most of the stuff you posted was in agreement with mine. The important thing you specified was with regards to prolonged exercise to failure. It makes sense that shorter, less intense training equates to less sensitivity to protein. I usually train for over an hour, more close to +/-90 minutes, and twice a day. So accordingly my food intake has been ridiculous.

I am still under the impression that an anabolic state closing after 30 minutes is an absurdly small period of time, especially if an athlete is training seriously. My friends who are into body building are adamant about having their protein shake within 30 minutes after their last rep. The sense of urgency seems silly to me. I think the human body gets less credit for regulating different mechanisms than it deserves. And who chooses not to eat within 2 hours of intense training? I'd become a zombie if I did that.

I mentioned the progression of carb->fat->protein breakdown for energy because I've read and heard people say that if you don't consume protein within the anabolic window, your body starts breaking down muscle tissue/protein; which just seems highly unlikely.

[Joshua Naterman]

No, not muscle right away. That takes 10-12 hours, according to most sources. At first it's protein from more immediately labile sources. Extra organ mass mostly. The potential issue I see is that you end up having to replace that protein, and to some extent that's going to interfere with muscle protein synthesis because they both require protein but we have limited protein uptake ability.

In my book, it's worth doing what is possible to avoid intentionally relying on labile protein since it clearly does not have the same effect as dietary protein on muscle protein synthesis, quite possibly due to the large difference in rate of introduction to blood. I suppose I simply prefer not to build up unnecessary debts.

The sense of urgency is real, as I just mentioned in my last post. It just isn't absolute. It doesn't close, necessarily, but you can reduce the CATABOLIC state by about 50% by enough carbs + 30g protein. Since 0.6g carbs per kilogram per hour showed a serum insulin level of 18.6 micromoles/mL and research shows it takes 30 micromoles/mL and 18.6/30=0.62 it follows that (0.6g/kg)/0.62 = 0.96 g carbs per kg body weight per hour of working out is what will give the appropriate insulin response.

Because insulin response to dietary carbs is not linear it may be closer to 0.8-0.9, but I have found that 2-3 pop tarts, which is 72-108-ish grams of carbs, is what makes me feel the best after a workout and also what seems to give me the best results depending on how long and hard my workout was. For me, that's fairly in line with these theoretical levels extrapolated from the research. I"m 102 kg and my workouts typically go from 40-80 minutes.

You have a limited period of time to take advantage of. Do you take advantage of 100% of a limited resource or 70%?

The anabolic state doesn't close, but sensitivity decreases within those 30 minutes and if you want your best results you'll want to take advantage of that window. If you're fine with good results instead of great results, which is perfectly fine, you are ok waiting a bit.

Now, something to keep in mind here is that no one has ever done a study showing how these singular measurements of muscle protein synthesis transform into muscular gain over the long term (6-12 weeks).

You're basing your opinions on ideas that not only don't line up completely with the current body of research.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18535123

We found that muscle FSR increased in the EAA + CHO group immediately following EAA + CHO ingestion (P < 0.05), returned to basal values during exercise, and remained unchanged at 1 h postexercise. Muscle FSR decreased in the fasting group during exercise and increased at 1 h postexercise (P < 0.05).

At first glance, this makes it sound like there wasn't a big difference, but if you go through the study and look at all markers of protein synthesis they are ALL quite a bit higher in the pre-exercise fed group throughout exercise and even after. This was a single shot study, and had very specific parameters with one goal: to find out if exercising in a fed state prevents the known reduction in muscle protein synthesis (MPS) known to happen in fasted states. The answer? yes, it does.

In the discussion:

We cannot completely explain the discrepancies between that study and our present study, but it should be noted that several differences in study design exist. For example, in the prior study (29) the authors used a smaller dose of EAA + CHO than we did, and they provided the nutrients immediately before exercise, whereas we administered the nutrients 1 h before beginning exercise. In addition, it is difficult to determine if muscle protein synthesis was actually increased in the aforementioned study (29) because it was not measured directly. In addition, the ingestion of whey protein immediately before exercise (31) also resulted in similar increases in nondirect measures of muscle protein synthesis and anabolism. Therefore, we cannot rule out the possibility that intact protein ingestion before exercise may have produced different results than what we have reported in the present study

They realize that the timing of their nutrient exposure to the experimental group has a potentially significant effect on net MPS.

Importantly, they did NOT use food PWO to increase MPS once again, or to even see if there is an effect in this regard. There is no reason to think there would not be, given the parameters shown, since at the end of exercise we are basically looking at baseline mTOR activity in both groups.

Maximal MPS in response to feeding with any specific nutrient mix doesn't seem to be affected by anything except proximity to exercise, so I don't see any evidence anywhere to suggest that the pre-feeding has any effect whatsoever on the PWO response to food.

Therefore there is no research currently existing to support your opinion, and furthermore your "Pre-workout meal" does not have an ingestion time specified, and this too is an important variable.

Food for thought, as it were.

It's true that our bodies are excellent at mitigating unfortunate circumstances, but this should not be mistaken as the ability to get similarly great results from ideal and non-ideal circumstances. It's no disaster if you can't do things perfectly, but all other things being equal (genetics, drug status, etc) you'll be at a competitive disadvantage to someone who does PWO nutrition perfectly.

So, since your bodybuilding friends are in a competitive mindset, it is in fact not crazy at all for them to be focused on PWO windows and the like. Changes are pretty good that they could be doing things even better than they are, particularly in the area of specific nutrient combinations and sustained exposure to food after the workout, but they're on the right track in terms of maximizing benefits.

You are also drastically oversimplifying what happens with energy sourcing. What you have posted is a blanket statement regarding carbs, fats and proteins as energy sources and is not entirely accurate. At rest, for example, you preferentially burn fat and not carbs.

There is a specific need, and therefore consumption pattern, that changes in known fashions according to relative exercise intensity, and THAT is what matters.

You're going to have to be a lot more specific and better informed if you're going to come in here and post a thread that basically says "Hi guys, I know how this crap works. See if you can prove me wrong."

1) That's rude and shows a lack of social grace (something I've been guilty of in the past and have worked hard to correct), so I would appreciate it if you could be a bit better about that. I feel that everyone who wants to be a relevant part of this community, myself included, owes the community a constant effort to improve on their communication skills and internal mindset.

2) I don't have the time to be everyone's personal tutor, though I seem to try anyways. I'm getting away from that. Most of what I have posted for you would have been easy for you to find. It took me about an hour, and I have 21 other tabs currently open that I'm going to read after my finals are finished this Thursday. That is why I always seen to be pretty on to of this area: I am constantly learning. I don't see any reason for anyone to function differently when it comes to areas they are interested in.

If you're interested in this area, my first suggestion is to start searching for this stuff on PubMed and Google Scholar and whatever other educational resources you can find, and read until there's nothing left. That may take you a few weeks to cover the majority of what is known on this subject if you're reading for several hours per day, but it will also leave you with a very solid understanding regarding current research in this area of nutrition. At that point you will be able to ask much more pointed, and much more relevant, questions that will help all of us a bit more.

No disrespect is intended with the above paragraph, but the PWO window has been beaten to death. At this point I'm doing misinformation control, and that is not my favorite thing to do. I will be making a sticky after finals to hopefully permanently ( who am I kidding?) take care of this PWO business for a long time to come. This was a good post, but it was also confrontational in tone and that's not my favorite thing to deal with here. Regardless, it has helped me make an outline for the PWO article so you have my thanks for that!

[Larry Roseman]

Glad Josh answered you specifically.

I largely agree with Josh except that last statement about being *OL by missing the window.

Optimum glycogen replenishment is more time dependent than protein timing is for muscle growth, which is a long, long term process.

There isn't any scientific evidence that the body won't even out the curve over the course of the day.

Meaning, if you hit the window, breakdown may increase later in the day. Or if you miss it, it still

can increase following a later meal. Even though everyone agrees it increases following exercises.

The labile tissues play a role here as a buffer and provide EAA that avoid muscle breakdown and

faciilitate repair, though they most be replenished later.

The training to failure study sited I believe also used detrained subjects. That does not automatically translate into a 24 hour window for actively training subjects. Training to failure has additional safety risks and shouldn't in my mind be done as a rule, on this basis alone.

So to me it's not a bad idea to hit the window, but it's still up in the air whether it's accompishing much different in the long run. (As Josh noted in his now-noticed follow-up post that came up without the warning that appeared in the old board). I personally do it for carbs and protein and am not arguing against it, just trying to highlight its somewhat speculative nature. Usually, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle...

[Joshua Naterman]

FIN: I ran across a failure study that used trained people and found similarly extended windows of enhanced protein sensitivity.

As for the window I mentioned, I think we can agree that if you have a 24 hour window and you miss the whole thing then you wasted that opportunity completely. If you miss a small part of it, you only waste a small part of the opportunity.

What I was trying to point out, and in a long post it's easy to lose track of what I'm saying, was that if you have a 4 hour window because you only did 3 sets and not to failure then you did in fact apparently miss out on the adaptation time for that exercise. Because the window length changes based on stimulus according to the research I'm referencing, I do think it's fair to say that you need to know what your window is.

What we DON'T know, and what I would love to see, is whether or not protein sensitivity STAYS high for the whole window if you keep eating or whether there is a given maximal adaptation per window and once you reach that point the window simply shuts down. I don't know, and I'd honestly expect for the window to remain in effect as is for the most part, but who knows?

This business of anabolic window length being dependent on exercise intensity and volume (more accurately percentage muscle recruitment times the repeat bout effects) is actually a very interesting potential loophole, because it means that you could potentially get similar training effects from multiple non-failure sessions per day (particularly with things like handstands and other high leverage statics) by eating immediately after each training session. There's always a window of enhanced potential MPS but the further from failure you get and the less volume you do the less time you seem to have to reap benefits.

Granted, this won't be practical for most people, but it is interesting to think about. I have seen my shoulders grow quite a bit over the past 2 months just from handstands and support work, but I am careful to apply these feeding principles very precisely.

[Cole Dano]

That's really interesting Josh, and I have a feeling it's a method that would work well for me.

On a practical note, if you plan ahead enough to stock up on some low cost, bulk carb source and whey it actually isn't much to any effort to get the feeding in within half an hour if you want to.

And even though one can be very precise with how many calories you burned how much you are taking in etc you can get good results without constantly calculating everything.

[Joshua Naterman]

Absolutely. Know your ball-park numbers and you're good. I know what my ballpark multipliers are, so it's pretty easy for me to nail things down without much effort. I only have to remember how many kilos I weigh, 30g of protein, and the approximate fraction of 1 hour I work out. For every hour I work out I have about 1g carb per kilo of body weight and 30g of protein. To me, it doesn't get much simpler than that.

[Larry Roseman]

Actually I did miss in Gravy's second study,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19478342 the point that pre/post-workout vs morning/evening protein supplementation made little difference over a 10 week period.. It's a decent amount of time to assess changes.

Results indicate that the time of protein-supplement ingestion in resistance-trained athletes during a 10-wk training program does not provide any added benefit to strength, power, or body-composition changes.

It's only one study, don't know if calories were controlled in any way, but may reflect that nutrient release from feedings overlapped the window, or that the window isn't crucial over the long term because of compensatory processes, or a combination of both.

Mainly eat, train, be happy!

[gravy]

No offense taken. In creating and posting this thread, I was open to the possibility that whatever I said is wrong. If I had 100% trust in my own ideas on the PWO window, I would not have created this thread. Why would I want to waste my time and other's time? There is no incentive for me to do that.

The PWO window has been beaten to death, but most of the time people just say consumption of X g protein/Y kg lean mass, in Z amount of time is optimal for gains and recovery. But where are the sources for the time, "Z"? Where is the data, the study methodology, etc.? It's usually not there; especially when discussing these things with my body builder friends and people in my gym who do not understand the fundamental concepts of metabolism, and do not read articles/studies done on metabolism. Everything they say is usually from word of mouth, from what their friends say or what the guy at GNC said. Or if a writer on a blog/website does mention, "recent studies/research on A show B and C", they often don't reference or link to the study.

I am more likely to believe things I read on the websites you mentioned, and what my Bio/chem professors say much more so than what my buddies do. And sometimes the procedures used to research these things have flaws, which generate data/conclusions that may be misleading/incorrect. But in being able to read and discuss the procedures, it becomes much more apparent how applicable and trustworthy the results are. And this is much more useful to me than hearsay.

I am studying this topic, which makes it even more interesting to me. Plus finals are next week, so this procrastination has utility.

Bottomline: If my tone was offensive, my apologies. However, I am open to new ideas and to refining and correcting my understanding of these concepts. Not all of these concepts are easy to comprehend, and my foundations are a little rusty.

---

My bad for steering the discussion in the wrong direction, I wanted to mainly focus on the urgency of protein intake within 30 minutes. Because carbohydrate intake PWO definitely reduces carb/fat/protein catabolism. A good amount of people I know have their protein shake (which has a very small amount of carbs) immediately after PWO and then don't have a carb/protein rich meal until later.

Sensitivity to MPS being highest immediately after exercise makes sense. However, you and others continue to state:

The anabolic state doesn't close, but sensitivity decreases within those 30 minutes and if you want your best results you'll want to take advantage of that window.

I guess I have been getting hung up on that number, 30 minutes. Maybe I am running the wrong seaches through scientific research websites ("30 minutes" anabolic, "30 minutes" whey, "30 minutes" muscle protein, etc.). And after 30 minutes, does sensitivity really drop that much? From the source you mentioned earlier:

Figure 1

Resistance exercise stimulates a prolonged elevation of muscle protein synthesis (MPS) that can remain elevated for≥24h (dashed lines). Thus, we propose that protein ingestion at any point during this enhanced period ...

Am I interpreting this graph correctly, when I say that the decrease in MPS is pretty gradual, and peaks close to 3 hours PWO?

I mentioned the preworkout meal because if carb stores are low going into training, chances are quality and output volume will suffer as opposed to having a carb rich meal preworkout. And if glycogen stores get depleted, fat catabolism would activate. I have personal experience with low blood sugar and impaired cognitive function during and after working out, so eating a meal prior to training and having sugar intra workout makes sense to me. However, this is personal anecdote, and you are correct in that I need sources and a specific time in which benefits of a preworkout meal would be necessary. I am not sure if this would be true, but if exercise quality and output volume increases with a preworkout meal, then it may be possible that it would have an effect on the sensitivity to MPS PWO.

Sidenote:

I always eat before exercise (to delay fatigue/decrease in focus due to hunger) and immediately after exercise (because I get extremely hungry). I do not however, consume whey protein or any protein/BCAA supplements. I eat 6, fairly large meals a day with snacks in between. And the meals are mostly high carb, but also protein rich. My sense of urgency is derived from the signals my body sends me. If I do not eat directly after working out, I feel like shit. If I do not eat prior to working out, I feel like shit. However, I am curious to know if listening to my body is enough, or if there are things I could be doing to further optimize my rate of progression. I am always trying to improve my programming+nutrition and find any holes wherever they may be. The topic of nutrient timing (protein in particular) has been on my mind for a while because of the frequency with which people talk about it, and the prevalence of protein supplementation in our culture. It's often hard to filter out the conflicting/poorly designed studies, broscience, and all the product pushing. These are things for which I do not care for. All I want is to further my training and get to that next level.

[Nic Branson]

Some good info here. The industry has people afraid to eat carbs even with all the research on the subject. I never train to failure on purpose nor do any of my athletes aside from an occasional specific plan. Personally I also train typically twice a day so keep in mind your training plan. Also your caloric needs overall at 140bs I still need 3k daily to maintain. Now I do both pre and post training. Post is often done right after I finish before stretching. Josh spelled out a ton, not going to add anything else on the matter.