Minimum carb daily consumption for gymnastics?

[Martin de Jesus Ponce Robaldino]

Well i know it might be a little hard wuestion to answer, specially as everyone is different in a lot of aspects, but probably it can be a range in which the carb consumption may not decreasse protein sinthesis or increase fat gains. and obviously different kind of workouts cause different demands in carb consumption....

I'd like to knwo your opinions, how many carbs do you consume each day, working out or nonworking out days...

Thanks for the opinions =)

[Lindahl]

Typically around 320-370 grams of carbs. Depends on how much fat/protein I've ingested that day, but I try to keep carbs pretty high as I find it helps me in the gym.

And don't worry about certain ratios being "better for protein synthesis" or "better for fat loss". It doesn't work like that. If you want to lose fat, stay on a caloric deficit. If you want to build muscle, stay on a caloric surplus. You can ingest 50g of carbs a day and still build muscle or gain fat, or you can ingest 500g a day and lose muscle/fat. It all depends on the rest of your diet.

Just make sure you're getting enough protein/fat in your diet, as those are the essentials. Fill the rest up with carbs..or fat or protein, whichever you like.

[Coach Sommer]

I am currently at the Olympic Training Center for our latest Jr National Team Camp.

After years of meticulously evaluating what and how much the athletes' consume during intense training, I have come to the educated conclusion that they most enthusiastically eat anything that is not nailed down. :wink:

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Philip Chubb]

Around 75-90 grams a day at most. This is with 6-8 hours of training.

[Daniel Burnham]

Around 75-90 grams a day at most. This is with 6-8 hours of training.

That may be minimum to function but not enough to support good performance in the sport. The amount of carb (glycogen) needed for 6-8 hours of training is huge. Try it with that amound of carb intake and see how you feel after 1-2 weeks.

[Blairbob]

Coach Sommer I have heard an old funny story about what lifters ate at the OTC...upon careful study and conclusion, it was found that one lifter was getting the bulk of their calories from cherry pie.

Maybe the cherry pie is really good there.

[Philip Chubb]

Around 75-90 grams a day at most. This is with 6-8 hours of training.

That may be minimum to function but not enough to support good performance in the sport. The amount of carb (glycogen) needed for 6-8 hours of training is huge. Try it with that amound of carb intake and see how you feel after 1-2 weeks.

After 1-2 weeks, I felt decent. After nearly 4 years of doing it, amazing. Even if optimal performance did require a higher amount than this (and I don't believe it does), there are other health markers I am looking for as well.

[Martin de Jesus Ponce Robaldino]

Around 75-90 grams a day at most. This is with 6-8 hours of training.

That may be minimum to function but not enough to support good performance in the sport. The amount of carb (glycogen) needed for 6-8 hours of training is huge. Try it with that amound of carb intake and see how you feel after 1-2 weeks.

After 1-2 weeks, I felt decent. After nearly 4 years of doing it, amazing. Even if optimal performance did require a higher amount than this (and I don't believe it does), there are other health markers I am looking for as well.

Sounds good.

How much protein do you consume everyday?

What do you consume before, during and after workout?

thanks for answering

[Philip Chubb]

I eat around 6 meals of organic meat and berries. Before workouts I eat meat. During workouts I don't eat anything. After, I use coconut milk, berries and whey protein. Night is usually a sweet potato before bed to put me to sleep.

[Joshua Naterman]

I am currently at the Olympic Training Center for our latest Jr National Team Camp.

After years of meticulously evaluating what and how much the athletes' consume during intense training, I have come to the educated conclusion that they most enthusiastically eat anything that is not nailed down. :wink:

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Hahaha, that's good... nails are hard to chew. I know. :oops:

[Joshua Naterman]

Now, staying on topic:

It depends heavily on how long your sets are and how long your rest periods are. There are certain specific set/rep schemes that simply don't require anywhere near as much carbohydrate as others.

Before the rest of this post, I want to clarify something: The primary potential health issue, speaking of long term premature organ failure specifically, is that super low carb diets force a higher rate of GNG and direct amino acid oxidation and thus a higher level of nitrogenous waste than the kidneys can safely handle according to known research. Again, this is a chronic issue that will not affect healthy people with no underlying kidney disease or genetic vulnerability in this area for decades. Decades. There is just not anywhere near enough data to support the long-term adoption of such a diet from a health and longevity perspective.

You typically want to have at least 110g of carbs per day no matter what, just to cover what your red blood cells and your white and grey matter require. Your red blood cells, for obvious reasons I hope, are 100% anaerobic. They cannot use oxygen. That means all they can consume is glucose.

The main issue with these diets comes with large anaerobic training loads because that's where you start developing a large carbohydrate requirement that cannot be fulfilled any other way. Ketones cannot be processed anaerobically. This is a key, key point to remember.

I am all about giving the body what it needs, and not more, and that is 100% based off of what you are doing at the time. This is where you will see your best results.

That doesn't mean you can't have good results in some areas with low carb high fat diets, but your high intensity anaerobic performance (particularly anaerobic glycolytic performance) will be subpar.

If you want to prove it to yourselves, go low carb for at least 2-3 weeks and then do a few 400-800m sprints. Train that way for as many days, weeks, or months as you like until you feel like you're making major improvements if you want to. Then take just 1 week and load up on carbs. Now go run them again. You will not be the same athlete. Your times will blow the old times out of the water. That's not even showing how much improvement you'll see if you actually keep getting enough carbs and training the long sprints, which is even more impressive.

Obviously for this to mean anything you need to actually push it. You won't notice much of a difference if you're jogging.

With diet, the single most important thing for an athlete who wants to grow bigger and stronger is a caloric surplus at the right times. Second is having raw materials present at the right times. Third is making sure you aren't wasting those raw materials.

Happy training

[Philip Chubb]

Poliquin, who has been training people for decades, still considers it a myth that high protein will do that. I am not saying you are wrong since I haven't seen any studies proving either way, but considering that fact and that our ancestors were likely low carb this way, I'm sure it will be a long time before we can even notice. I'll be sure to write my experience with it in a few decades though. I am actually interested to see what happens.

Naterman's Note : Poliquin still stands by the research and recommends that you not exceed 2.8g of protein per kg of bodyweight. That's a lot of protein, but not unlimited! This note is here so that people understand Poliquin's position. He is a big name, and I believe it is best to put this here so that no one makes a mistake and goes overboard.

[Joshua Naterman]

Poliquin, who has been training people for decades, still considers it a myth that high protein will do that. I am not saying you are wrong since I haven't seen any studies proving either way, but considering that fact and that our ancestors were likely low carb this way, I'm sure it will be a long time before we can even notice. I'll be sure to write my experience with it in a few decades though. I am actually interested to see what happens.

I am still on the fence about what I am about to say, but consider this:

There appears to be an upper size limit above which the limitations of protein absorption rates will actually make it impossible to hurt yourself with dietary protein. Specifically, protein absorption limit seems to be about 25og per day, if everything is perfect.

2.8 g/kg is what we consider the safe limit. 256.8 g of protein/(2.8 g/kg)=91.7 kg. At that weight, theoretically, you are no longer able to absorb more protein than your body can safely use.

What you CAN still do, assuming that is true and that such a protective limitation exists, is cause excess nitrogen waste through gluconeogenesis. That's where the main danger is, in my opinion, because you have enormous potential for harm. This is essentially what kills diabetics when they go untreated with diabetes-induced ketoacidosis. It is a runaway reaction that reaches maximal rates and produces absolutely obscene amounts of nitrogenous waste. Kidneys shut down in a few days to 2 weeks, depending on severity, and then of course death follows very soon after.

Non-diabetics shouldn't have nightmares about this because it won't happen that way for us. What can happen is that failure to meet minimum carbohydrate requirements can add to the nitrogenous waste from a high protein diet, which is substantial but safe, and create a situation that is NO LONGER SAFE for long term applications.

That protective limitation may not be real, so I highly suggest that you stay within 2.8 g/kg.

In my opinion this issue is all about understanding the science behind how our systems work and obeying those parameters.

They allow for a very, very large range of diets that can be safe and effective.

[Martin de Jesus Ponce Robaldino]

well. in my case i opened this topic in order to know what coud be a significant difference, in order to perform.

I'll explain my situation.

Some months ago i was in kethosis. The main problem i found were recovery times between workouts. I used to workout twice a day and the only thing i got was weigh loss as i wasn't getting enough protein. I didn't know that i had to use probably a lot more of protein in order to get a positive protein synthesis. My daily requriments are between 3300 and 3600 calories on workout days (talking about one workout in a day). I used to put in my mouth aprox 4500-5000 calories in a day, and i was still losing weight. I tough it was fat only, the problem came when i got injuried.

I was losin muscle, i was consuming aprox less than 80 grams of carbs, and probably around 1.5-2 g/kg of protein, considering that my weigh is 73 kilo, the only result i got, was a loss of strength and weight (muscle mass ) i drop to 68 kilo in two months, eating huge amounts of food.

Then, i began to investigate, and to make some research, i found that as the aminoacids are oxidated, then the body had to get too much more protein in order to don't enter into a catabolic (protein degradation) state.

I'm not saying that we can't be in a low carb diet, as we can be, but at least in my case, it's very expensive as meat in any case) is expensive.

Then i changed again into a more balanced ratio of carbs:fat. And then began to get stronger again, but, as gymnastics depends more on phosphocreatine system than the glucolytic one, my doubt was about the minimum amount of carbs for perform in gymnastics.

In my case, reps and intensity vary from 60-90% and from 1-5 or 6-12 reps, depending on what i'm looking for. So i'm not deppending only in the phosphocreatine system....

So, Slizz, in your experiencie, for a combined system that uses both glycolitic and phosphocreatine system, training 4 5 times a week, and considering a weight of 162 lbs at 5'11'' , what could be a good approach to a minimum daily intake of carbs???

[Joshua Naterman]

What you are asking for is a personal consultation. You can PM me and I will quote you a price, and we will probably have to wait until Thanksgiving break (third weekend of November I think). I don't get that detailed for free.

[Blairbob]

Alex, what level do you train? You did say 6-8 hours? Does that include event work? Are you a competitive gymnast (USAG, JuniorElite, NAIGC/collegiate club, Elite or collegiate)? I did look at your profile but I didn't feel like going through 910 posts.

[Martin de Jesus Ponce Robaldino]

What you are asking for is a personal consultation. You can PM me and I will quote you a price, and we will probably have to wait until Thanksgiving break (third weekend of November I think). I don't get that detailed for free.

hahah , ok ok , i have no money for buying extra meat man.... XD

Thank you anyway Slizz...

[Philip Chubb]

Sounds good.

How much protein do you consume everyday?

What do you consume before, during and after workout?

thanks for answering

I don't actually count the amount. I usually will end up eating 2 pounds of beef or 2 steaks and a pound of beef through the day when I have time to cook. I don't eat as much as most people actually think.

I do use about 25 grams of whey protein after which is followed by more meat but that's as far as it goes for me counting anything.

2.8 g/kg is what we consider the safe limit. 256.8 g of protein/(2.8 g/kg)=91.7 kg. At that weight, theoretically, you are no longer able to absorb more protein than your body can safely use.

What you CAN still do, assuming that is true and that such a protective limitation exists, is cause excess nitrogen waste through gluconeogenesis. That's where the main danger is, in my opinion, because you have enormous potential for harm. This is essentially what kills diabetics when they go untreated with diabetes-induced ketoacidosis. It is a runaway reaction that reaches maximal rates and produces absolutely obscene amounts of nitrogenous waste. Kidneys shut down in a few days to 2 weeks, depending on severity, and then of course death follows very soon after.

Yeah I get a little less than that since I am at 75 kilos last time I checked. I also am doing several things to help with the acidity problem which explains the berries and the glutamine. I mentioned Poliquin because I asked recently when I went to become a Biosignature practitioner. I do remember hearing those numbers. Next time I can, I will ask if he's seen anyone go above them.

Alex, what level do you train? You did say 6-8 hours? Does that include event work? Are you a competitive gymnast (USAG, JuniorElite, NAIGC/collegiate club, Elite or collegiate)? I did look at your profile but I didn't feel like going through 910 posts.

You would have gone through them for no reason at that . I am only recreational and occasionally compete at one of those competitions for people who missed the age. I tumble and do strength work on rings for the most part since I don't like most of the other events. I spend most of the day at the gym working on that, hand balancing, circus arts like corde lisse, floreio, MMA and strength training. That is where the 8 comes from.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Alex, how do you have the time to train 8 hours a day? Do you have a night job?

[Joshua Naterman]

Well, sounds to me like you're not in any short term danger lol...

I do think it would probably be good for you to get extra carbs after your workouts to stave off unnecessary GNG, and I have no idea if you do that or not.

Anyhow, based on your activity level I do think you'd benefit from more detailed analysis but as long as you are happy with how you do things I'm happy for you.

[Philip Chubb]

Alex, how do you have the time to train 8 hours a day? Do you have a night job?

It's easy. First, work as a trainer and train with your clients. They'll enjoy having someone suffer with them and you'll have more time to train.

Next, don't get married. But if you do, convert them to training all day as well. The couple that trains together, stays together.

Last, don't have much of a social life. Going out all night sucks compared to training. You need those 8-9 hours to sleep a night.

I do think it would probably be good for you to get extra carbs after your workouts to stave off unnecessary GNG, and I have no idea if you do that or not.

You don't have to tell me twice. If that means I can rationalize having another sweet potato during the day then I am all over it . I'll just make sure my body fat doesn't go up but if it won't affect me negatively then I'll try it! There is no low carb dogma here. I just use what works.

Edit: This totally slipped my mind. I guess I just expected everyone to know somehow :oops: , but I forgot to mention that every week I do either once or twice a carb refeed. Usually like rice or more sweet potatoes or higher carb fruit like mangos. That may also help too.

[Joshua Naterman]

Without question that helps. That refeed (and the extra sweet potato on other days) will do you the most good if you get your fastest digesting carbs right after your training sessions. Especially higher intensity ones.

You are probably about as lean as you are ever going to get, based on that picture you posted of your back, so I don't expect any change either up or down for you. For most people this strategy will actually make them leaner.

You know, after reading the last post I keep thinking "This.... IS... SPARTA!!!" Glad you have a life you enjoy! That is the most important thing in my opinion.

[Philip Chubb]

Thanks Joshua! I actually stopped going zero carb before after you posted something similar though I still do low and refeeds now. Keeps the sugar cravings at bay. The point of 400-800 is definitely true. I have tried that. With refeeds, I am able to easily outrun the classes I teach. Without them... ehh.... :?

You know, after reading the last post I keep thinking "This.... IS... SPARTA!!!" Glad you have a life you enjoy! That is the most important thing in my opinion.

Haha thanks! I hope this may help me get down to 5%.

I hope this helped OP.

[Nic Branson]

5% cringe.....I was at 4.2% once and will never go there again on purpose. Power to you if your body tolerates it! Just watch your immune responses and cognition.

[Philip Chubb]

5% cringe.....I was at 4.2% once and will never go there again on purpose. Power to you if your body tolerates it! Just watch your immune responses and cognition.

I envy you. But perhaps it would be wiser for me to say the leanest I can get without negative effects.