NaterMania

jocke_a said:

I'm interested in trying this for a month too, but I have some questions if you don't mind helping me out.

I don't think I'll have the time to do all the exercises every day. Could I concentrate it to fewer holds? If so, which are the most important to work?

I could see myself skipping the split squats and going with the two-legged squats for leg work, but maybe that's not a good thing to do.

Could I skip the pushup and only work the dip, or maybe better, alternate them, or should I work both every day?

I'll try a workout now while I wait for your reply.

How's it going for you? Any more results since last post?

Ok, first off I am quite sorry to have disappeared after starting such a new program! I was the best man at my best friend's wedding and it was absolutely fantastic! Anyhow, the craziness is over for the forseeable future thank GOD! I will be more regular from here on out, both in regards to my posting and my digestive tract.

I am very new to this, but I am familiar with the concept behind the "extreme isos" so they weren't something brand new so much as a human application of the adaptations observed in avian muscle tissue. A weight was tied to a bird's wing for several weeks, in order to keep it in the maximally stretched position at all times. Before and after biopsies showed a 400-something% increase in the number of muscle fibers. Hyperplasia. The first proof that such a process can occur in an adult animal. There were then several workout programs supposedly designed around this concept by the muscle mags, but they're kind of crap.

The main difference between Jay's iso extremes and all other isometrics is in the possibility of hyperplasia and in the connective tissue development that can occur. There is also the advantage of building strength in the extreme stretched ROM, which will drastically decrease the likelihood of injury for the athlete that puts in the time, and what appears to be an extremely regenerative effect that athletes who build up to managing the pain for 3+ minutes seem to experience. It makes sense, since it is essentially a manual way to achieve what the ARPwave device can achieve, which is the relaxation of muscle knots and the lengthening of muscle tissue to pre-workout levels. Basically, after a workout your muscles undergo some concentric shortening that does not disappear. That is why, over time, you will get stiff if you work out and never stretch. Properly done, these iso extremes have NO CONSCIOUS CONCENTRIC CONTRACTIONS in the muscles being stretched whatsoever. Our bodies are pre-programmed to protect us against injury, and at that point of extreme stretch your nervous system automatically engages all available motor units to keep the muscle from going further. This is what provides the tension on the fascia and the tendons of the stretched muscles. As time goes on, that point of extreme stretch will go further and further.

As for what holds you should do, don't try and follow my program. It's massively time-consuming compared to the basics, which are the split squat and the push up. Those are the most important ones, because they will re-program the two most mis-coded movements. They are used in every push and pull, and the third is the chin up. With those three you're strengthening, stretching and re-programming the primary movers of virtually every single motion the body is capable of. That'll take 20 minutes total out of your day. Don't waste your time with the rest of what I'm doing, it is not necessary. I am doing all these things because I have developed crazy bad motor patterns through years of unintentional mis-use.

If you do those three correctly there will literally be zero fatigue. I have experienced this myself. It was like a light bulb went off when I finally did it right. It's more painful, but feels incredible the moment I was done. Furthermore, just that one week has noticeably changed my patterns. I feel my hamstrings and buttocks almost exclusively when I run, which I found out while I was jogging to meet up with my girlfriend while we were in Philly! My shoulder feels better than it did, but it's starting to revert since I haven't done anything in 4 days. I was also much more stable in my handstands. This stuff is good and useful when applied properly.

Brandon: The same place you read about it. I am currently on page 67 of the thread.

Saber: The only thing you have to be careful of with progressions is that if you intend to train one position but have to start in a different one to get to a 5 minute hold, you are being somewhat counter-productive. In that case you would be better served by getting into the desired position (if possible, if not there may simply be no choice but to be somewhat counter-productive) and accumulate the necessary time.

Isometrics in non-extreme ROMs are still awesome for the specific goals you're talking about, and they require much less recovery than kinetic efforts so that's a smart way to train.

When I reference weightlifting achievements, it isn't about the numbers themselves. I am impressed by the force generation those numbers represent! That force generation is something that all strength athletes train for, and is itself a key component of high rep ability. After all, if you can generate enough force to pull your body through a pull up in a fraction of a second, the whole rest of the time you're coasting on momentum and conserving energy, which translates to more pull ups. You still benefit from the extreme end ROM work to protect the joint by developing the connective tissue and muscular strength, and the beauty is that you can do it every single day without getting tired or "overtrained"! I know, I didn't quite think that sounded right two weeks ago, but now after experiencing it myself I know it to be true. I am surprised, to say the least.

cccp22 said:

**********Where(or what site) did you run across the iso extremes at? Where did you get 30-40% bw plus at? I trained with jay before the iso's. I believe they do what he says they do. WGF has a view point on them as well. Do you think James Colbert is correct in his understanding of LDISOS? In addition what about doing these on a vibration plate or someone using a vibrating wand on you ala inno-sport?

Brandon Green

I think James is absolutely correct. This could, in theory, be expanded to any extreme stretched ROM for any muscle. I have begun using this concept for my bicep tendon conditioning with great preliminary results. I'll need a few months straight to be able to even begin to say anything definitive. I am still working out things and figuring out exactly where this concept will be useful.

I am not familiar with inno-sport, but I think the vibration plate might be too intense for extreme isometrics. You're already in an extreme weighted stretch, essentially. I can see the possibility of injury if an athlete is doing the extreme isos correctly. I think they would probably have to turn into a bottom ROM hold, the difference being that you would be forced to use concentric contraction in the stretched muscles to protect them. Would this be useful? Almost certainly. Would it achieve the same effect as extreme ROM isometrics? I don't know. I tend to think that they would be synergistic more than one being an advanced version of the other. That, my friend, would be a pretty neat experiment for you to do with clients.

Blairbob said:

SLizzardman, what do you think about using the SLS as an isometric hold. Specifically, holding just higher than the bottom of the SLS?

Would you consider Horse stance training an isometric. Before I ever touched a BB squat, I had done plenty of Horse stance which is probably what helped me ramp to a decent BS and FS back in HS within 3 months.

Dude. Horse stance training is definitely an isometric! If done in such a fashion as to pull the hips down as low as possible, like an active horse stance stretch, then it could be an extreme ROM isometric, but performed with parallel thighs it's just an isometric. I would be absolutely shocked if that didn't have a lot to do with your rapid gains in the FS and BS. Many of the old training protocols make a lot of sense to me now. Not like they didn't before, but my more complete knowledge of physiology has me in awe of the intelligence behind the old ways.

I actually had a long talk with a capoeirista out here in GA about a week ago after a training session and as we were talking about different things, I explained the physiology behind what happens with isometrics in general and what happens with the extreme isos. He was really thrilled because he saw his early training in a completely new way. Drills that clearly helped him but for unknown reasons, very similar to the split squat extreme iso, now make complete sense to him and he can tell his students exactly why these are important. Little things like that are what improve our communities as a whole, so that was a very rewarding experience for me personally.

This is all very interesting. So if I wanted to do the three positions you talk about pushup/split squat/chinup what should I read to understand proper execution and how often to do these.

Thanks alot for the replies. Interesting stuff.

What are your thoughts on integrating these three basic iso's with the usual Gymnastic Strength Training™? You talked about the nervous system not being reprogrammed as effectively as when you drop all other training, but how useful would it still be?

Brendan Coad said:

This is all very interesting. So if I wanted to do the three positions you talk about pushup/split squat/chinup what should I read to understand proper execution and how often to do these.

+1. I love reading about new approaches and even though I'm sticking to basic BW routines for now, I'm filing away a lot of useful info for later use

slizzardman said:

jocke_a said:

I'm interested in trying this for a month too, but I have some questions if you don't mind helping me out.

I don't think I'll have the time to do all the exercises every day. Could I concentrate it to fewer holds? If so, which are the most important to work?

I could see myself skipping the split squats and going with the two-legged squats for leg work, but maybe that's not a good thing to do.

Could I skip the pushup and only work the dip, or maybe better, alternate them, or should I work both every day?

I'll try a workout now while I wait for your reply.

How's it going for you? Any more results since last post?

Ok, first off I am quite sorry to have disappeared after starting such a new program! I was the best man at my best friend's wedding and it was absolutely fantastic! Anyhow, the craziness is over for the forseeable future thank GOD! I will be more regular from here on out, both in regards to my posting and my digestive tract.

I am very new to this, but I am familiar with the concept behind the "extreme isos" so they weren't something brand new so much as a human application of the adaptations observed in avian muscle tissue. A weight was tied to a bird's wing for several weeks, in order to keep it in the maximally stretched position at all times. Before and after biopsies showed a 400-something% increase in the number of muscle fibers. Hyperplasia. The first proof that such a process can occur in an adult animal. There were then several workout programs supposedly designed around this concept by the muscle mags, but they're kind of crap.

The main difference between Jay's iso extremes and all other isometrics is in the possibility of hyperplasia and in the connective tissue development that can occur. There is also the advantage of building strength in the extreme stretched ROM, which will drastically decrease the likelihood of injury for the athlete that puts in the time, and what appears to be an extremely regenerative effect that athletes who build up to managing the pain for 3+ minutes seem to experience. It makes sense, since it is essentially a manual way to achieve what the ARPwave device can achieve, which is the relaxation of muscle knots and the lengthening of muscle tissue to pre-workout levels. Basically, after a workout your muscles undergo some concentric shortening that does not disappear. That is why, over time, you will get stiff if you work out and never stretch. Properly done, these iso extremes have NO CONSCIOUS CONCENTRIC CONTRACTIONS in the muscles being stretched whatsoever. Our bodies are pre-programmed to protect us against injury, and at that point of extreme stretch your nervous system automatically engages all available motor units to keep the muscle from going further. This is what provides the tension on the fascia and the tendons of the stretched muscles. As time goes on, that point of extreme stretch will go further and further.

As for what holds you should do, don't try and follow my program. It's massively time-consuming compared to the basics, which are the split squat and the push up. Those are the most important ones, because they will re-program the two most mis-coded movements. They are used in every push and pull, and the third is the chin up. With those three you're strengthening, stretching and re-programming the primary movers of virtually every single motion the body is capable of. That'll take 20 minutes total out of your day. Don't waste your time with the rest of what I'm doing, it is not necessary. I am doing all these things because I have developed crazy bad motor patterns through years of unintentional mis-use.

If you do those three correctly there will literally be zero fatigue. I have experienced this myself. It was like a light bulb went off when I finally did it right. It's more painful, but feels incredible the moment I was done. Furthermore, just that one week has noticeably changed my patterns. I feel my hamstrings and buttocks almost exclusively when I run, which I found out while I was jogging to meet up with my girlfriend while we were in Philly! My shoulder feels better than it did, but it's starting to revert since I haven't done anything in 4 days. I was also much more stable in my handstands. This stuff is good and useful when applied properly.

Brandon: The same place you read about it. I am currently on page 67 of the thread.

Saber: The only thing you have to be careful of with progressions is that if you intend to train one position but have to start in a different one to get to a 5 minute hold, you are being somewhat counter-productive. In that case you would be better served by getting into the desired position (if possible, if not there may simply be no choice but to be somewhat counter-productive) and accumulate the necessary time.

Isometrics in non-extreme ROMs are still awesome for the specific goals you're talking about, and they require much less recovery than kinetic efforts so that's a smart way to train.

When I reference weightlifting achievements, it isn't about the numbers themselves. I am impressed by the force generation those numbers represent! That force generation is something that all strength athletes train for, and is itself a key component of high rep ability. After all, if you can generate enough force to pull your body through a pull up in a fraction of a second, the whole rest of the time you're coasting on momentum and conserving energy, which translates to more pull ups. You still benefit from the extreme end ROM work to protect the joint by developing the connective tissue and muscular strength, and the beauty is that you can do it every single day without getting tired or "overtrained"! I know, I didn't quite think that sounded right two weeks ago, but now after experiencing it myself I know it to be true. I am surprised, to say the least.

********** How about a "new" paradigm for bodybuilders. anatomical adaption(stiffness of the spring ), plyo's(elasticity of the spring),heavyweights(maximal strength),hypertrophy.

Brandon Green

jocke_a said:

Thanks alot for the replies. Interesting stuff.

What are your thoughts on integrating these three basic iso's with the usual Gymnastic Strength Training™? You talked about the nervous system not being reprogrammed as effectively as when you drop all other training, but how useful would it still be?

Realistically, as long as you're doing a lot more reprogramming work than you are using the current motor patterns, you will still end up reprogramming your nervous system. it won't happen as fast, but for some people that's ok. With the WODS here, I don't think there will be any problems at all. As strange as it sounds, once you get to where you can do these properly (and that IS a skill that has to be learned, so don't feel bad if it takes a few weeks!) you'll get no fatigue whatsoever from them.

Furthermore, as Coach has mentioned in the seminars several times, men's gymnastics is primarily shoulder-girdle dominant, not hip girdle. More than anything else, the push up is important. Almost all other sports are dominated by hip girdle movements, so if you do anything outside of gymnastics you definitely want to do the lunge!

Also, these extreme joint angle holds aren't the only way to use isometrics to enhance your training results! They have unique effects on the body in terms of possible hyperplasia and certainly fascial thickening, along with preferentially recruiting fast twitch fibers for long periods of time, which leads over time to fast twitch dominance, which will allow you to reach much higher levels of strength AND do so more quickly than you would otherwise. More than anything else, these extreme isos should be considered pre-hab and re-hab.

One cool thing to keep in mind is that isometrics, just in general, prime the nervous system to recruit more motor units! If you do some isometric holds for the positions you'll be working out as a part of your warm up, you'll do better during your actual workouts as long as you don't go nuts with the holds! Plyometric work will further prime you for maximal efforts, so the best thing to do is get warm, do one or two hard isometrics for maybe 10 seconds, do a set or two of plyometric exercises(these have to be absolute maximum speed for the full effect, but that may be beyond you at first), and THEN do your strength work! You'll find you can do more, which will lead to better gains. You'll also be protecting yourself from injury.

Example: 10-20s weighted extreme iso push up, rest, 7-10s isometric (weighted if you need to) hold at sticking point during HSPU, plyo push ups or wheels OR reactive medicine ball drop for 2 sets of maybe 5-7 reps, rest 1-2 minutes and then go to your HSPU sets. You'll be stronger, your work sets will be more productive, and that means you'll be gaining more strength from that workout.

cccp22 said:

********** How about a "new" paradigm for bodybuilders. anatomical adaption(stiffness of the spring ), plyo's(elasticity of the spring),heavyweights(maximal strength),hypertrophy.

Brandon Green

The top bodybuilders already do something similar. You won't hear about it in muscle magazines because it's what works and that's not what they sell. If they did sell only truly useful info they'd only be able to make one or two new issues per year! If anything, there should be more emphasis on the extreme iso's for them and they should use isometric and plyometric work in their specific warm ups so that they can get the most out of every work set.

They should also do isometric holds at the sticking point, most extreme angle, and extreme end ROM for each primary exercise so that they can get stronger at those critical points. That's what will allow even more strength. This really applies to every strength athlete, but for the bodybuilder an increase in strength should be seen as the potential for more sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. These isometrics could be done in the middle of their recuperation, because isometrics cause almost no muscle damage, which means they won't interfere with the healing process.

slizzardman said:

cccp22 said:

********** How about a "new" paradigm for bodybuilders. anatomical adaption(stiffness of the spring ), plyo's(elasticity of the spring),heavyweights(maximal strength),hypertrophy.

Brandon Green

The top bodybuilders already do something similar. You won't hear about it in muscle magazines because it's what works and that's not what they sell. If they did sell only truly useful info they'd only be able to make one or two new issues per year! If anything, there should be more emphasis on the extreme iso's for them and they should use isometric and plyometric work in their specific warm ups so that they can get the most out of every work set.

They should also do isometric holds at the sticking point, most extreme angle, and extreme end ROM for each primary exercise so that they can get stronger at those critical points. That's what will allow even more strength. This really applies to every strength athlete, but for the bodybuilder an increase in strength should be seen as the potential for more sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. These isometrics could be done in the middle of their recuperation, because isometrics cause almost no muscle damage, which means they won't interfere with the healing process.

******** This has already been done overseas. check out in the forum section of verkoshansky.com "Block system in bodybuilding" and the response.

Somehow my reply to Brandon did not post.

I read the forum you mentioned, and the system mentioned is not what I am suggestiong. Parts of it is, but there is no fascial stretching or loaded stretches mentioned. There is also no mention of nervous system re-education. That means there is not complete anatomical adaptation, in the sense that there could be more done to prepare the body for greater strength and therefore untapped potential by not doing this. Obviously, this is speculative.

Your spring analogies are, for the most part, not relevant. Muscles are more like a cross between stranded ropes and pressurized hose.

The only time stretches are mentioned is when Sergey says he has his guys pause at the bottom of the ROM for 1-3 SECONDS, and that's just to make sure they're starting with dead weight and no elastic energy.

There is no mentioned use of isometrics whatsoever. I have emailed Sergey about his results, and if I get a reply I will ask further questions to make sure I am clear on what he is doing.

Hey Slizzardman, you've got me interested in trying out the 5 minute isos for the next few weeks. Until I get more fish oil, I think the only thing I should train is CNS re-education and joint prehab, which you appear to have good knowledge on. I'll be working on the squat and push-ups isos and possibly chin-up isos where I can find a bar.

Please keep us updated with your results.

Dude it is going great! My push up hold is at 4 minutes before I have to take a knee and my shoulder is feeling GREAT! My pull up is over 2 minutes with the first hang, and as I have made improvements in my form that too is helping my shoulder a lot!

If you're primarily going for gymnastics, I'd mostly focus on pull up, push up, and lunges. That's it. You can use other positions for re-education of specific movements, and I'll post more on that later. Right now it's shopping time!

If you want more well-rounded ability then you'll probably want to work on wall squats, bulgarian squat, GHR(natural or not, but really this is a weighted pike stretch if you're not doing natural. Weighted pike is what is going to do the most good for the specific purpose of fascial stretching and encouraging hyperplasia) and german hangs as well.

How did you upload the excel document of your workout? Mines all on excel but when I tried uploading it onto my workout log it was having non of it. Maybe because its the newer version of office? (2007).

hahaha, I take a screen shot! Just bring up your excel document and when everything is on screen, hit the "print screen" button once. It's usually on the upper right portion of the keyboard near the F12 key. That takes a snap shot. Now open up an image editing program and a new blank picture. All that's left is to hit ctrl+v! Or you could click on the "edit" menu and select "paste" to pop it in. Now you just save the pic as a .jpg or .gif and upload!

slizzardman said:

Dude it is going great! My push up hold is at 4 minutes before I have to take a knee and my shoulder is feeling GREAT! My pull up is over 2 minutes with the first hang, and as I have made improvements in my form that too is helping my shoulder a lot!

Have you started using added weight yet, or just BW? It sounds like you are making progress quickly. A couple questions:

I was also wondering why 30-40% of one's bodyweight added for the iso. Wouldn't wearing a 60 lbs weighted vest would make a Pushup iso a lot harder than a Squat iso?

Would you follow a kind of progression like 5 minutes of chin-up and move onto 5 minutes of pull-up then 5 minutes of wide grip pull-up? Perhaps one would do this as one progress through FSP progressions. Or did you choose normal pull-ups for a specific reason?

slizzardman said:

and german hangs as well.

I think 5 minutes of german hang is categorized under "cruel and unusual" punishment. :twisted:

slizzardman said:

Somehow my reply to Brandon did not post.

I read the forum you mentioned, and the system mentioned is not what I am suggestiong. Parts of it is, but there is no fascial stretching or loaded stretches mentioned. There is also no mention of nervous system re-education. That means there is not complete anatomical adaptation, in the sense that there could be more done to prepare the body for greater strength and therefore untapped potential by not doing this. Obviously, this is speculative.

Your spring analogies are, for the most part, not relevant. Muscles are more like a cross between stranded ropes and pressurized hose.

The only time stretches are mentioned is when Sergey says he has his guys pause at the bottom of the ROM for 1-3 SECONDS, and that's just to make sure they're starting with dead weight and no elastic energy.

There is no mentioned use of isometrics whatsoever. I have emailed Sergey about his results, and if I get a reply I will ask further questions to make sure I am clear on what he is doing.

******* I realize that is missing critical parts to the more evolved training system that i have alluded to.

But he is further along than the traditional system and at least employing some drops.

Brandon Green

slizzardman said:

Dude it is going great! My push up hold is at 4 minutes before I have to take a knee and my shoulder is feeling GREAT! My pull up is over 2 minutes with the first hang, and as I have made improvements in my form that too is helping my shoulder a lot!

If you're primarily going for gymnastics, I'd mostly focus on pull up, push up, and lunges. That's it. You can use other positions for re-education of specific movements, and I'll post more on that later. Right now it's shopping time!

If you want more well-rounded ability then you'll probably want to work on wall squats, bulgarian squat, GHR(natural or not, but really this is a weighted pike stretch if you're not doing natural. Weighted pike is what is going to do the most good for the specific purpose of fascial stretching and encouraging hyperplasia) and german hangs as well.

*********** Any loss of maximal strength in pecs or delts?

Brandon Green

schlaffmann said:

slizzardman said:

Dude it is going great! My push up hold is at 4 minutes before I have to take a knee and my shoulder is feeling GREAT! My pull up is over 2 minutes with the first hang, and as I have made improvements in my form that too is helping my shoulder a lot!

Have you started using added weight yet, or just BW? It sounds like you are making progress quickly. A couple questions:

I was also wondering why 30-40% of one's bodyweight added for the iso. Wouldn't wearing a 60 lbs weighted vest would make a Pushup iso a lot harder than a Squat iso?

I am ready to start adding weight. Once my check clears I'll be ordering an 80 lb weight vest off E-bay. It's 139! Good design too, very similar to MiR. I AM making pretty good progress, largely due to my fairly high acceptance of pain. I'd say tolerance, but you have to go beyond tolerating to expecting and accepting the pain. It's not like a tear or anything, just... different.

I have been wondering the same thing about the squat, but the wall squat is mostly to re-train the glutes and hamstrings. The free squat that I have been doing is different, and I have no idea what the effect of the weight vest will be on either. I haven't done any wall squats yet.

These aren't holds, so there isn't much of a strength component. It's more of a nervous system adaptation and stretch exercise. The extra weight just enhances the stretch. It's no different than weighted pike, the weight allows you to accomplish more of a stretch and place more stress on the stretched muscle than you could do with just muscular tension, and it won't hurt you unless you get really stupid with it.

Would you follow a kind of progression like 5 minutes of chin-up and move onto 5 minutes of pull-up then 5 minutes of wide grip pull-up? Perhaps one would do this as one progress through FSP progressions. Or did you choose normal pull-ups for a specific reason?

I... don't know. I've started doing some regular pull up work. The two really help open up the shoulders, as the progressive resistance encourages muscle lengthening. These aren't static holds, they are a continuous stretch. You are constantly trying to get more stretched! The FSP are different altogether. I meant to type chin up, but I am doing both now so I guess it doesn't matter

Now, when I feel like my shoulder can do it properly, which should be pretty soon, I will start doing pull up and chin up isometrics with my scapula retracted and protracted, maybe two holds each of 10-30s. That will be to train the muscles to be strong in the given position, and to train my nervous system to send more action potentials to the retractors and protractors when I use them. That will create a base of neurological strength as well as physical changes in the muscle tissue(hypertrophy) that together should prepare me to far surpass my previous bests fairly quickly. Of course that will require ongoing maintenance.

slizzardman said:

and german hangs as well.

I think 5 minutes of german hang is categorized under "cruel and unusual" punishment. :twisted:

Yea... it is. I'll let you know how THAT goes... I can tell you right now that I am expecting that to be the slowest stretch to progress. When I get past 3 minutes I'll probably start loading it slowly, a few pounds at a time.

The basic idea here is that if you train your body to be strong and efficient in the ways that you need, acquisition of skills becomes very easy. It ends up being much more efficient than chasing specific performance goals instead of spending a good chunk of the time on "general" conditioning that is geared towards building the physical and neurological abilities that are called upon to perform the skills. That's what Coach is having us do through the basic strength, but I believe that these weighted stretches help to enhance that base and build a different facet of basic abilities that allow even basic strength to accrue much faster.

cccp22 said:

slizzardman said:

Dude it is going great! My push up hold is at 4 minutes before I have to take a knee and my shoulder is feeling GREAT! My pull up is over 2 minutes with the first hang, and as I have made improvements in my form that too is helping my shoulder a lot!

If you're primarily going for gymnastics, I'd mostly focus on pull up, push up, and lunges. That's it. You can use other positions for re-education of specific movements, and I'll post more on that later. Right now it's shopping time!

If you want more well-rounded ability then you'll probably want to work on wall squats, bulgarian squat, GHR(natural or not, but really this is a weighted pike stretch if you're not doing natural. Weighted pike is what is going to do the most good for the specific purpose of fascial stretching and encouraging hyperplasia) and german hangs as well.

*********** Any loss of maximal strength in pecs or delts?

Brandon Green

No idea, I haven't tested them. My handstands are massively improved, though.

Something that many people on that WGF thread missed, perhaps because the training effects were not clearly explained, is that the loaded stretches do not create strength on their own. They simply help contribute to fascial stiffness, muscle length, and muscle fiber count. The reason they have to be done long-term to get the most out of them is that these adaptations are made only after repeated stress. The reason you should be continually adding load is that at some point your body has built enough new fibers and enough fascia to adequately deal with the stress. So, then you add more. This is literally just like a factory. We make more and more fibers, and stiffer and stronger sheaths for them. It is still up to the trainee to then take these raw materials and use drops, explosive, and plyometric work to make the most of them!

According to the research paper abstracts I read on PubMed, progressive loaded stretching, general exercise, AND power work all work separately to promote hypertrophy AND hyperplasia. You need all of them to get the most out of your body, and the stretching is a very important component.

slizzardman said:

hahaha, I take a screen shot! Just bring up your excel document and when everything is on screen, hit the "print screen" button once. It's usually on the upper right portion of the keyboard near the F12 key. That takes a snap shot. Now open up an image editing program and a new blank picture. All that's left is to hit ctrl+v! Or you could click on the "edit" menu and select "paste" to pop it in. Now you just save the pic as a .jpg or .gif and upload!

Cheers for the feedback, will give that a go.

If you don't mind me asking Slizzardman, where did you find this info about extreme isometrics? I plan on doing it for a month and continuing if the results are good. I will post my results every week once I design the program.

I was also wondering how do you perform the chin up/pull up isometric hold. Do you lockout at the top or do you simply hang? My better judgement tells me it is the lockout, but if think about it the hang would stretch out your back muscles while they support you.

kyle said:

If you don't mind me asking Slizzardman, where did you find this info about extreme isometrics? I plan on doing it for a month and continuing if the results are good. I will post my results every week once I design the program.

I was also wondering how do you perform the chin up/pull up isometric hold. Do you lockout at the top or do you simply hang? My better judgement tells me it is the lockout, but if think about it the hang would stretch out your back muscles while they support you.

My discovery of the loaded stretches, which is what the "iso extremes" really are, started with an article I had downloaded some time ago about using speed bench press to increase your maximal strength. There was a quick blurb about Adam Archuleta and some other crap, and the numbers listed were so insane that I had to learn what was going on. So, I went to the bottom, checked the footnote, and then had to search out the referenced article. From there, I did google searches for the guy and after a while I came across the thread started by James Colbert at the "Wanna Get Fast" forums. It's essentially a track and field-oriented site with some great info. Anyhow, I read all 77 pages of the thread. I had already been exposed to the laboratory findings on hyperplasia, as this was something I did a lot of research on back in the Navy, so I understood SOME of the basic physical responses to the loaded stretches. I learned a lot from the thread, there is a lot of neurobiological explanation on why these are a good addition to any program beyond the pure physiological changes, which are profound on their own.

After that I started researching hyperplasia directly and came across a TON of abstracts on PubMed.gov. The website is here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed, just search for hyperplasia. Between that and other searching on google, it has become apparent that the loaded stretching is a important piece of the puzzle. I posted a topic in the Community forum that talks about training effects as a result of some of this research. It's important that people understand what is happening in their bodies. Once you understand the qualities that an elite athlete has, the methods through which you elicit the adaptations that build these qualities, and the order of priority in which they need to be focused on and introduced, you can easily modify any training program that does NOT have this holistic perspective to not only be more effective but also take you exactly where you want to go, in terms of your physical abilities.

Slizzardman,

I just reread some of the posts on here and have a few questions. The pushup for example seems like a deep stretch, where you are at the bottom. When you get to that spot are you pressing or just holding? I imagine pressing since its an ISO. Also what constitutes the extreme ROM portion of the chin or pull up or is that just holding above the bar?

After performing the WOD's I am realizing how weak I am and I think what you are doing might help play a role into my strength development too. If not at least its another tool in the bag for me to use.

Well, as a stretch it is neither a hold OR a press. It is a pull! You are actively trying to go down as far as you can. You want your elbows in line with your hands and your shoulders. It's HARD, but in a different way.

Now, you CAN and probably SHOULD do this as an isometric as well once you get a handle on the stretch version. The stretch is primarily to keep the muscles LONG and to promote hyperplasia. The true isometric version is for strength and should probably be done loaded for sets of 10-60s depending on what your goal is. You could go longer, certainly, but you have to realize that to get the most out of isometrics you have to try and target specific motor units. Long holds like 5 minutes are to hypertrophy the fast twitch fibers and recruit more motor units than normal. Shorter holds like 30-60 seconds hit your Anaerobic 2 fibers, which is type 2-A. Shorter holds like 5-15 seconds target Anaerobic-1, or 2-x, which are the highest threshold fibers. These are often written as 2-b, but that is incorrect according to the ACSM. 2-b only exists in certain animals (quite a lot, I believe), and is far more powerful than any muscle fiber we have. That's all I know about AN-1. Isometrics also cause an extremely rapid firing rate, which means neural learning is accelerated through more repetitions in a given period of time. This is part of why isometrics are so useful for rehab.

The extreme version of a chin is trying to push down into a dead hang as far as you can go, with the hands around 6 inches apart. For a pull up, it's really any grip. It depends on what you're going for! You will be pushing yourself down towards the ground, and using your chest and serratus(they fire together, more or less, you don't need to worry about the serratus) to pull your shoulders in front of you, to fully stretch the lats. You do both at the same time while maintaining as close to a straight line from hips to hands as possible.

Do NOT forget, these loaded stretches AKA "iso-extremes" or "extreme isometrics" are only tools to help build raw materials like muscle fibers and thicker fascia, and to train them to become longer. To train them to be STRONG and FAST, you must do true isometrics, dynamic work, and plyometrics. Hmm, that sounds a lot like... the WODs!