Eric Kamhi Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I recently changed my back lever hold to palms facing down and it has been putting a lot of pressure on my biceps and elbows. I cannot hold a full back lever with palms facing down, so I usually end my back lever fsp work with at least two full back levers with palms facing up (in order to work the core and chest more than the flat tuck I can do with palms facing up).The switch in hand position, has made it almost impossible for me to work on my muscle ups. My elbows and biceps are way too tired after the fsp work and I cannot do a muscle up in good form. Elbows seem way too tired, and forcing it only makes me feel a slow pain creeping up and lingering for a few days.Is this normal? Will it go away with time as my elbows and biceps get used to the new back lever position I am working?Should I stop training the muscle up as my elbows adjust and the pain starts to dissipate?Can I work on another element that would benefit my muscle up work during this time?Is it better to scale down the hands facing down version of the back lever and go back to working the hands facing up more to ease the pressure on my elbows and keep working on muscle ups?Sorry for the machine gun questions, but I am unsure which road would lead to better, safer progress all around. I train FSP's every gym day (3xweek) and usually work on muscle ups once a week. But that has lately been 1x week trying to work on muscle ups and alternating something easier since I could not complete the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blairbob Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Perhaps try the MU work before static work. Seems a bit backward but if MU is your priority... Or use an easier version of the MU. Is it better to scale down the hands facing down version of the back lever and go back to working the hands facing up more to ease the pressure on my elbows and keep working on muscle ups? I would not go back to working a pronated BL. Make sure your ring support is strong enough before Back Lever work. And give it some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Kamhi Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 Doing muscle ups first before anything else seems a little weird. I have to admit I split the fsp work in two for two sessions and inserted muscle ups in the middle before moving onto levers, but it felt weird doing that.I guess I could do that on the muscle up days. Would it not affect fsp work? I always thought fsp was done first in order to do them on a full energy reserves and not suffer from fatigue from fbe work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Burnham Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 It is not normal under the correct training to have this pain in your elbows. This is the result of not sufficiently preparing yourself for the back lever. Like blair said, you should have a very good support before you start. This helps condition the elbows. You can then start on the lower variations of the back lever. I would actually try to advance your planche first.Basically go back to the tuck back lever and build volume then move through the variations. There is a reason that the palms position is important and you have just discovered it. The same goes for holding a correct support with the rings turned outward.As for the FBE and FSP order you do the FSP first because it is generally a harder skill and you want to do the more difficult things first in a workout except for warmup of course. If muscle up is the most important thing to you then you should train it while you are fresh.You may also be working muscle ups at too high of a volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parth Rajguru Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I think your straight arm conditioning might not be ready for supinated back lever training yet. Maybe you should step back and work skin the cats, german hangs, and ring supports to prepare the elbow for straight arm loading. Skipping these steps might work for a little while, but eventually you get injured or progress stops. It's better to build a strong foundation and build on top of it.I had an elbow injury when I pushed too hard with supinated tuck back levers without preparing for it properly. I was out of commission for a little while, but this is back when I was young(er) and stupid(er). Save yourself the trouble and gradually load the joints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Sommer Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I think your straight arm conditioning might not be ready for supinated back lever training yet. Maybe you should step back and work skin the cats, german hangs, and ring supports to prepare the elbow for straight arm loading. This is excellent advice. You are not yet ready for dedicated BL work. Back up and master the pre-reqs first.Yours in Fitness,Coach Sommer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Kamhi Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 Thank you very much for the feedback. I'll try to scale back to a tuck and less hold times (worried this will just make the back lever too easy and not challenging in itself but will try). My ring support is at about 40 seconds max and I train them as 4 sets of 20 sec holds. My planche work is also at 4 sets of 20 sec tuck planche with hips at shoulder height (slowly starting to work on flat tuck). Maybe wait until my ring support max is 1 min before going supinated BL?Just to be clear, back lever work in itself, does not cause pain in my elbows. The pain only happens on days/weeks that I am working muscle ups in addition to the static work. If I were not training muscle ups, I would not be feeling any elbow discomfort. For example last week I did not train the muscle up at all and my elbows were fine. Just this weekend after a week break I decided to give it a try again, and felt the same problem creep up, so I decided to make a post.Thanks again for all the helpful posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blairbob Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Yeah, doing the MU is a bit off IMO but it's just another solution. Getting back to this: My ring support is at about 40 seconds max Your ring support is immature IMO for aggressive BL work. If it was on medium to long straps, that's ok. Then again in Berkeley I was at 40s at one point in time but that was on 15' straps because that's all they had. Same in Sac. Way different than 3-5 foot straps. Tuck Planche is decent though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Kamhi Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 Thanks for the pointers, I'm going to try and bring my ring support to a solid 1 min before pushing more on the supinated BL.I don't feel my elbows having too much stress in ring support, but thats porbably a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blairbob Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 For the most part they don't. It is just something to prepare the elbows for rings. Dips would be another and of course a simple german hang and being adept at 360pulls/skinthecats. Turn the rings out as much as you can, forearms off the rings, rings away from the body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Kamhi Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 I have them at a 45 degree angle, cant really turn them out more currently. Forearms off the rings? How is that even possible without opening your arms out to the side kind of like an iron cross? Even then, turning the rings outward (palm facing away from the body) makes them press against the forearms no matter what I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parth Rajguru Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Thank you very much for the feedback. I'll try to scale back to a tuck and less hold times (worried this will just make the back lever too easy and not challenging in itself but will try). My ring support is at about 40 seconds max and I train them as 4 sets of 20 sec holds. My planche work is also at 4 sets of 20 sec tuck planche with hips at shoulder height (slowly starting to work on flat tuck). Maybe wait until my ring support max is 1 min before going supinated BL?Just to be clear, back lever work in itself, does not cause pain in my elbows. The pain only happens on days/weeks that I am working muscle ups in addition to the static work. If I were not training muscle ups, I would not be feeling any elbow discomfort. For example last week I did not train the muscle up at all and my elbows were fine. Just this weekend after a week break I decided to give it a try again, and felt the same problem creep up, so I decided to make a post.Thanks again for all the helpful posts. How are you training for the muscle up? What movements are you using? You may need to cut the intensity on them. For example, if you're working negatives, maybe you should step back to working Russian Dips. Develop some quality work there for a few weeks and see how your elbows respond to the stress of harder progressions. It still sounds like your straight arm conditioning on the rings(support, german hang) is lacking. You should really build some volume there. This is the foundation for all future work on the rings, and everything else builds on these fundamental positions and movements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blairbob Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Forearms off the rings? How is that even possible without opening your arms out to the side kind of like an iron cross Bingo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Kamhi Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 Forearms off the rings? How is that even possible without opening your arms out to the side kind of like an iron cross Bingo.*lightbulb* OK thanks for that I've been doing these wrong then. How wide an angle out to the side 20 degree-ish? And still, lowered the ring onto the floor and tried to see how thing hang and stuff... when I turn my palms outward (45 degree or more), the rings hit the forearms. Arms have to be both out to the side and my hands have to be a little behind the shoulders (I have to be hanging IN FRONT of the ring straps, not aligned with them). Is this correct?This also brings up another question for me, wrist position. Wrist on top of rings or hand bent outwards and wrist hanging outside of ring (palm somewhat facing down-ish)? I'm guessing the latter as the former makes it almost impossible to keep the forearms clear. Hand bent outward adds extra pressure on the wrists such as in planche but even worse because of the arm position.Again sorry for pestering but I want to get this right Sorry for keeping the questions coming but all the images in the book that look somewhat like a ring support or other images I've looked up don't have the right position that would allow the rings to be clear of the forearm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Kamhi Posted October 7, 2012 Author Share Posted October 7, 2012 I've found the answers to my ring support question in this thread with a great video that details and answers all my qualms. Posting it here just in case a future reader stumbles on this thread so he can be redirected to the proper thread with the dscussion and responses.viewtopic.php?p=87827&sid=6738cdab6969f4a1b374dc39afa99475#p87827 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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