Rings cable's length: does it affect?

[Alex_K]

Hello, Folks. I'm totally new on this great interactive encyclopedia of gymnastics lovers. Have 3,5 months of rings training. And have one bothering me question. Small digression, at first: sorry for my mistakes, cause english is not my native. I'm — from fareast of Russia.

All 3 months of training were proceed on rings in my workplace office's warehouse. There were straps from point of attachment to the rings in about 2,5-2,8 meters (9 feet) long. From this three months have achieved next skills: solid muscle up without kipping (a bit slow, cause the transition part from pull to dip is still demanding, but solid), L-sit, clear back lever with pullout without any pike, one-leg front lever with pullout, 3 front rolls to support in a row, front kip to support, rare back kip (or feldge) to support with pike, handstand using cables, totall solid 50 degress (lacking 40 to full) iron cross with pullout. So, i think not bad basement. Maybe it would be usefull to say that before rings there were 4-5 years of rock climbing.

The position in RTO support and Iron Cross are super solid, maybe having a tiny little swing in direction face-back, but totally no wobbling in straight arms (necessary to say that i'm just fanatical in controlling that hands are really totally STRAIGHT in all skills wich demands straight arms such as cross and levers).

And now me and my frined which has also felt in passion with rings have moved to local climbing gym, where we have set up the rings as they "should be" — about 3 meters from the floor (2,8 if counting the floor-mat) to have ability to try the swings, inlocates/dislocates and flyaway, about 1,2 meters of straps from rings to wire cable, and then the wire cable to the place of attahcment.

So now the real distance from the point of attachment to the bottom inner part of rings is about 4,5 meters (12,5-13 feet).

What i have found - the muscle up has come sensibly easiaer (moving hands much far apart from body and much less pike while transition), BUT....... Even the holding RTO support without wobbling became REALLY HARDER. And i even couldn't take the wobbling away totally. No matter how solid became i (contracting all muscle which possible) there's still visible wobbling when arms are totally straight. Just a little tiny bent in elbows, of course, stabilize everything, but hey we know that this is not "our way of doing things on rings"

The L-sit and Cross also became MUCH harder. The cross angle have decreased to deplorable 35 degrees and i'm shacking holding it like a leave on the wind.

So' i'm wondering should i or shouldn't... Have such an idea - connect the cables from rings with a thin steel chain on the distance from rings which is declared in official FIG rules for gymnastics events - something about 3 meters ( 8,5 feet) to make closer to perfomer the real point of attachment from which rings are going sides when doing such things as cross.

What do you think?

ps: and what about just modelling the situation when we have, for example 50-100 meters long cables from point of attachment to rings. Would it become almost impossible to hold a cross for a gymnast who's doing it easy on standart "correct" FIG rings?

[Nic Branson]

Longer is more difficult, you can tailor it to what you want. Just remember to make your progressions appropriate for the current difficulty. I would not go crazy with the length as you really start to hit diminishing returns big time.

[Alex_K]

Longer is more difficult, you can tailor it to what you want. Just remember to make your progressions appropriate for the current difficulty. I would not go crazy with the length as you really start to hit diminishing returns big time.

Thank you!

[Blairbob]

Yep longer cables = more difficult.

At Pozsar's and UC Berkeley, I did the bulk of my strength training on ceiling hung rings for support work. Think 15-20' straps. Made doing anything on regulation 10' straps a breeze. And if I were to go to some CrossFit gym and monkey around on 3-7 foot straps? Totally cake.

The difference between 15' and 20' isn't much compared to the difference between 5 and 10 feet.

[Alex_K]

Yep longer cables = more difficult.

At Pozsar's and UC Berkeley, I did the bulk of my strength training on ceiling hung rings for support work. Think 15-20' straps. Made doing anything on regulation 10' straps a breeze. And if I were to go to some CrossFit gym and monkey around on 3-7 foot straps? Totally cake.

The difference between 15' and 20' isn't much compared to the difference between 5 and 10 feet.

Much thanks for such detailed answer. So, think that will continue training on this 15' cables from ceiling.

[Brian Li]

Yep longer cables = more difficult.

At Pozsar's and UC Berkeley, I did the bulk of my strength training on ceiling hung rings for support work. Think 15-20' straps. Made doing anything on regulation 10' straps a breeze. And if I were to go to some CrossFit gym and monkey around on 3-7 foot straps? Totally cake.

The difference between 15' and 20' isn't much compared to the difference between 5 and 10 feet.

Can you give a percentage of how difficult it is comparing one one length to another, like 5ft compared to 10ft? Thanks!

[Alex_K]

Yep longer cables = more difficult.

At Pozsar's and UC Berkeley, I did the bulk of my strength training on ceiling hung rings for support work. Think 15-20' straps. Made doing anything on regulation 10' straps a breeze. And if I were to go to some CrossFit gym and monkey around on 3-7 foot straps? Totally cake.

The difference between 15' and 20' isn't much compared to the difference between 5 and 10 feet.

Can you give a percentage of how difficult it is comparing one one length to another, like 5ft compared to 10ft? Thanks!

Heh =) I get that question is addressed not to me, but nevertheless think that this things are super subjective to give you such a "math-looking" answer on your question. From my experience could just say that static holds when you're above the rings (simple RTO, L-sit, Cross, Handstand) have come really "wobbly" on 15' cables. When they were TOTALLY stable on cables 8' long.

And it seems to me that no matter how solid (tensing every tissue in upper body) i am, it's almost impossible to take the wobbling away TOTALLY at present on such long cables. Of course, the lack of strength is obvious.

On dynamic things like in/dis-locates, swings and static holds below the rings (levers) the double extended cables haven't affect. The only skill that come noticeable easier, as i have already mentioned, is muscle-up.

[Blairbob]

I have noticed Muscle-Up becoming easier when going from 2-3 foot straps to 5 foot straps.

I wouldn't say going from 5 to 10 feet makes it twice as hard. I've actually tested numbers for it as well as 15 feet but no idea were those numbers are right now.

I would say doubling the strap length made it about 30% more difficult. Going from 10 to 15 ' was probably 20% more difficult.

15 to 20 was minimal.

[Brian Li]

Thanks for the replies, Alex-K and Blairbob! I knew longer straps is harder for support positions due to being more unstable and harder for skills that have the arms to the side like cross and maltese, but never knew the reason behind it. Anyone care to explain? It's also interesting that muscle-ups are easier with longer straps.

[Alex_K]

Thanks for the replies, Alex-K and Blairbob! I knew longer straps is harder for support positions due to being more unstable and harder for skills that have the arms to the side like cross and maltese, but never knew the reason behind it. Anyone care to explain? It's also interesting that muscle-ups are easier with longer straps.

I'm totally sure that we need physics scientist to "spill the light" on this mystery! If not joking, really sure that all stuff delivered to things like different crosses (and any other holds like correct nice RTO L-sit when hands come even a bit to sides from torso with palms really trying to look forward) is covered in altered angles between your arms and points of attachment.

But why simple RTO support have come wobbly just couldn't imagine.

Trying to speek simply, have find obvious that taking the rings to sides (any crosses/holds stuff) when you're below them is coming easier with straps getting lengthen and coming harder when straps come shorter. On the contrary when you're above the rings (supports, crosses, any other stuff) shorter straps -> easier crosses for example, lengthen straps -> harder crosses, supports.

That's really it. But why... We surely need scientist here

[Cole Dano]

It's fairly simple. If you look at the angle that the strap makes from neutral to any displaced position it will be smaller the longer the straps are. This is directly related to how much the rings must lift from the floor as the straps move in or out, In other words how much they must go uphill.

The less they go uphill the more easily they will move = the more unstable they will feel.

[Joshua Naterman]

It's fairly simple. If you look at the angle that the strap makes from neutral to any displaced position it will be smaller the longer the straps are. This is directly related to how much the rings must lift from the floor as the straps move in or out, In other words how much they must go uphill.

The less they go uphill the more easily they will move = the more unstable they will feel.

Exactly! The longer the straps get, the more it feels like a truly frictionless surface would feel. You literally have nothing to lean on, and it takes your body a while to get used to it.

Don't worry, it doesn't take all that long to become stable again.

[Chris Edgar]

I think this could also be due to the length of the pendulum. Because if we exert a small force on both a long and a short pendulum ( in this instance one of the straps), the short pendulum will come to rest first.

This is due to the circumference of the arc length (or how far the ring has to travel to gain vertical height, which requires work to be done to fight gravity). Because with each oscillation the ring can travel furthur they become more unstable. This means a minute force from your muscles trying to stabilize causes the rings to travel furthur, which you then have to control.

As cole said this effect lessens as the angle of the straps gets reduced, but I actually think it would be pretty interesting to have a go on 100m cables as it would be quite easy to get them swinging quite far, which would require immense support strength!

I'm sure it's at least one of the factors anyway!

Chris

[Rik de Kort]

For the somewhat technical explanation, see Chris' post. For the explanation in layman's terms, see Cole's post.

[FREDERIC DUPONT]

The frictionless pads are a great example:

If we consider infinitely long straps, then the arc is infinite, the angle never changes, and the rings move independently in a horizontal plane with zero resistance ===>> there is zero pendulum effect.