PTTP with bodyweight exercises

[Deft-Mastery]

I know this method obviously works fine with weights because you can make exact adjustments, but could you still do it with un-weighted exercises?

In the book this is called "Modified PTTP" and it says:

"The PTTP cycle is designed for use with weighted exercises, however a simple, yet effective, modification allows the PTTP approach to be used with bodyweight movements. Rather than adjusting the weight to be used from week to week, simply move on to a harder variation of a movement each week. For example jumping dips to negative dips to PB dips to upper arm dips to Bulgarian dips to single bar dips to Korean dips to XR dips. The key here is to not perform maximum efforts with each variation, but to gradually increase the level of perceived effort as the weeks progress. Upon reaching a week where the level of perceived effort is too great and you fail, stop and take a break from training for the rest of that week. The following week begin the cycle again, only this time chose an exercise that is at least slightly harder than that of your last starting point."

Is this the only way it would work? Or can something else be done?

This doesn't seem too effective or even possible if you want to do it with HeSPU's for example. My max for HeSPU's stomach against the wall is 4 reps, but the next variations are elevated (I could do that) and then korean, korean with undergrip, etc. How am I supposed to jump from floor and elevated to korean? Or take push-ups for example. Same problem, 2 or 3 progressions later it's just too hard and completely out of reach.

Is there another way to train in a PTTP style and to get its benefits but somehow only manipulating reps for example or increasing the difficulty with less of a change as is floor HeSPU's to korean or PB HSPU's?

I guess my main question is how to PROGRESS like you do with PTTP with the exercises you can't add weight to, what's the best and fastest way to progress through them. Or, at least, how to get to the point where you can START to add weight to then use PTTP.

The FSP's are different and I understand you use a SSC with them and I read you shouldn't use SSC with FBE's because that's too slow so that's out.

The slizzardman pullup's routine (which I don't know if it could also be done with other exercises and at the same time with the pullups) looks like you progressively overload all the time, adding reps and reps and then adding weight. But wasn't it that "Progressive overloading produces diminishing, and ultimately zero, returns."?

Thanks.

[Andrew Long]

From what I understand a lot of people complete all the dip variations then move onto dynamic handstand movements and in the meantime just do lots of holds in handstand position rather than working the motion. Once you have all the dip variations it feels like HS will be a hell of a lot easier. Also you could do them with a pike so your legs are on or something high enough to Have you legs parallel to the ground and do each progression like that maybe? as for push ups you could switch from rings to floor so when you reach PPPup for example rather than do it on rings you could do it on the floor. I dunno if that helps. whats the hardest progression you can do in these things atm?

[Deft-Mastery]

From what I understand a lot of people complete all the dip variations then move onto dynamic handstand movements

This is precisely what I am asking, how exactly they "complete" or progress through bodyweight exercises, what exactly is it that they do to keep progressing.

When I read things like "work your way up through x" but they leave out the specific details as to how you are going to "work your way up" in the first place, I just think it's wrong. Well for someone like me at least, someone who doesn't know all the ins and outs of training.

In another thread I read that you could start off with low reps, like 3 or 4, then "work your way up" until you can do 10 reps at least, and THEN add more weight/make the exercise harder and keep doing this indefinitely until you get to wherever you want to be.

Do you simply grab an exercise, do x number of sets and reps, never going to failure, keep at it, and then after a certain time add more reps?

It seems simple enough, and I would be thrilled it were that simple.

I mean if you look at the SSC for example, you are always increasing, you never start doing less time with the holds all of a sudden, or easier variations; instead you keep doing the same for x time, then increase, do that for x time, increase, and so on. You don't reach a peak and then start light again like in PTTP.

[Andrew Long]

The ssc is kinda like the pttp in the sense that the first part of the ssc is overload where the exercise is difficult to perform but you never chanfe the exercise so the more you do it the easier it gets. Then comes phase 2 when you are doing the exercise pretty well and maybe the last set you might be tiring a bit or something but again you change nothing and keep doing it. eventually you reach phase 3 where its cake and you can knock the exercise out without trouble thats when you retest and move on to the next ssc with either a hard exercise or more TUT. I have generally seen people say to avoid ssc for FBE though and work on something that you can do at least 3x3 of with perfect form then once you have that down pat you can add more reps or more sets until you reach 5x5 continue working that until you have 5x5 down pat every session and then move onto the next exercise. If the next exercise is too difficult which it may be sometimes then you can work the previous exercise a bit more so do something like 8 reps per set and then for one of those training sessions a week you can try the new exercise with negatives or if able just do as much as you can with it once a week with the new exercise until you are working 3x3.

I have found when I stall out in one area I notice another area picking up then I will stall out there for a bit and the area that was stalled will all of a sudden be improving. for example My handstand push ups were going no where but my dips were improving fast then I stalled out on dips and went nowhere I tried handstands again and pulled off 2 handstand push ups where as before I could do none. Right now my rows are stalling but I have noticed my press to handstand is a bit better.

What training are you doing atm and what progressions are you working on atm? maybe I could help more if I knew what you were capable of doing.

[Deft-Mastery]

The ssc is kinda like the pttp in the sense that the first part of the ssc is overload where the exercise is difficult to perform but you never chanfe the exercise so the more you do it the easier it gets. Then comes phase 2 when you are doing the exercise pretty well and maybe the last set you might be tiring a bit or something but again you change nothing and keep doing it. eventually you reach phase 3 where its cake and you can knock the exercise out without trouble thats when you retest and move on to the next ssc with either a hard exercise or more TUT. I have generally seen people say to avoid ssc for FBE though and work on something that you can do at least 3x3 of with perfect form then once you have that down pat you can add more reps or more sets until you reach 5x5 continue working that until you have 5x5 down pat every session and then move onto the next exercise. If the next exercise is too difficult which it may be sometimes then you can work the previous exercise a bit more so do something like 8 reps per set and then for one of those training sessions a week you can try the new exercise with negatives or if able just do as much as you can with it once a week with the new exercise until you are working 3x3.

That's very good, after my last post I did more reading and thinking and I thought it had to be kinda like how you said here.

I think my problem was that even though I thought I wasn't going to failure on each set I was still going very close to it and I wanted to do 1 more rep each time.

So how often should you try to add more reps? Is there like a guideline like every 2-3 workouts or something?

What training are you doing atm and what progressions are you working on atm? maybe I could help more if I knew what you were capable of doing.

I'm doing stomach to wall HeSPU's with only the tip of 1 foot slightly touching the wall, weighted dips pullups/chinups, tuck FL pullups, weighted push-ups and 4 statics and HS.

[Andrew Long]

First of all record your exercises as make sure you are doing all of them with good controlled form * no kipping or wobbly body =P) as for when to increase you could probably increase reps each week the thing is to go by how you feel soo say you are doing 3x3 hollow body pulls up no kipping controlled movement (If you haven't got the muscle up yet I'd also suggest trying to keep pulling up when you reach the top positions you wont go up but try to pull up anyway for a couple seconds before going back down again) anyway 3x3 of those and say on your last set you struggle to complete them with perfect form, well you probably aren't ready for more reps. Although if you finish your 3rd set and feel like hey maybe I could do 1 or 2 more thats when you start to increase. so next session you could do 4x3. Dont worry if you start increasing and only do 4 3 3 or 4 4 3 its still progress and then keep doing that until they are easy for you. Don't go till failure stop short a rep or 2 of FORM FAILURE not complete muscle failure.

I find it helps every now and then though to have a session where you go till failure in everything and then have a little bit extra rest. All this info I have gathered pretty much from the forums I am by no means an expert or even close to the most knowledgeable person here would be nice if someone else would chime in =P but I think this info should help you! Also if you get bored or stagnate then mix it up a bit maybe do Slizzardmans pull up routine (you can apply it to other exercises) just search for it in his profile. Or if you are training 4 times a week you could do 2-3 workouts with more volume and a lil bit less intensity and then 1-2 of the workouts with high intensity low volume. If you are doing high intensity have more rest if you are doing lower intensity by higher reps then have less rest. In the end though once something is easy to the point where you feel like you could do more at the end of the sets then you can add to it.

[Deft-Mastery]

Yes, I take note of everything, I have a small "journal" or notebook. I do try to always maintain good form. I don't mind increasing by 1 rep at a time as long as I'm going to progress indefinitely. I workout 4 days a week atm. I prefer to do heavy/hard work and I think I would just waste energy doing light/easy stuff, not to mention cut down my recovery, so at least for now I won't do any of that. Besides lifting ken and barbie weights or doing bodyweight dips/pullups for the sake of more reps and TUT just seems kind of wrong now that I do low-rep weighted and harder lol.

[Deft-Mastery]

In BtGB, on "Basic Strength Training", it says:

"For basic strength, it is best to pair exercises and then rotate between them rather than stand around while waiting to recover for your next set."

How would this be, exactly? You would pair two exercises and do supersets or something? How much would you rest?

[Andrew Long]

i prefer not to super set as I don't feel like I have as much strength out put when I rotate exercises like that but if you want to super set then I would pick either a push and pull int e same plane of movement and either do them back to back or have a minute or 2 rest between the exercises ( so vertical push and pull or horizontal). if you feel like that is too taxing you could try super setting a midsection ( abs/ lower back) with one of your push or pulls. So for example do pull ups then HLL during the "rest time". depends on what your goals are really. From what I understand the amount of rest determines which energy system you use and that determines how you will improve or grow. I think it was something like 3-7 mins rest between sets is the power strength less than that starts working towards strength endurance. I am currently have 3-4 mins rest between exercises and it feels good workout takes about 1-2 hours depending on how I feel and what exercises I am doing I have just started incorporating skill work after the strength work for about another hour or so which feels really good for me I like doing a lot on my work out days and its about time i worked more on my skills =P.

[Deft-Mastery]

i prefer not to super set as I don't feel like I have as much strength out put when I rotate exercises like that but if you want to super set then I would pick either a push and pull int e same plane of movement and either do them back to back or have a minute or 2 rest between the exercises ( so vertical push and pull or horizontal). if you feel like that is too taxing you could try super setting a midsection ( abs/ lower back) with one of your push or pulls. So for example do pull ups then HLL during the "rest time". depends on what your goals are really. From what I understand the amount of rest determines which energy system you use and that determines how you will improve or grow. I think it was something like 3-7 mins rest between sets is the power strength less than that starts working towards strength endurance. I am currently have 3-4 mins rest between exercises and it feels good workout takes about 1-2 hours depending on how I feel and what exercises I am doing I have just started incorporating skill work after the strength work for about another hour or so which feels really good for me I like doing a lot on my work out days and its about time i worked more on my skills =P.

I used to do straight sets only before, but now I find them a big waste of time. I suppose for a few exercises that's the only way to go (like deadlifts) but for all the rest, there's no going back super-setting for me. It's just so much better and supposedly you "activate" your muscles more if you pair them right.

I've been doing 1 pull exercise, rest 2 min, 1 push exercise, rest 2 min, 1 pull, repeat (from a Poliquin article). This is a lot better than doing straight sets, it saves you a lot of time and you end up doing more in less time. So why bother with straight sets?

What I'm going to try now is doing 1 pull exercise and then right away a push exercise (instead of resting 2 min between each), rest 3 min, repeat. It should work and this will save you even more time.

I just can't stand to wait 3-5min between sets but considering it will be even faster i'll accept resting 3 min.

[Andrew Long]

That sounds fine to me different things work for different people for example I perform better with a good 3 mins rest between sets but I have the time to spare to do that although sometimes I mix it up and do shorter rests, more volume or supersetting a push/pull with ab work. I dunno about the whole muscle activation thing would be nice if someone with more knowledge on this stuff would chip in. you should read "muscle revolution" by chad waterbury it has some interesting info in there that may help on this subject. In the end though try a few different things for a couple months and see which works best for you. no time will be wasted trying these different training styles as it is all still training and you will still progress.

[Andrew Long]

That sounds fine to me different things work for different people for example I perform better with a good 3 mins rest between sets but I have the time to spare to do that although sometimes I mix it up and do shorter rests, more volume or supersetting a push/pull with ab work. I dunno about the whole muscle activation thing would be nice if someone with more knowledge on this stuff would chip in. you should read "muscle revolution" by chad waterbury it has some interesting info in there that may help on this subject. In the end though try a few different things for a couple months and see which works best for you. no time will be wasted trying these different training styles as it is all still training and you will still progress.