Roy Yorke Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 This is a documentary that was on Japan's NHK channel on Sunday night. Part of their Miracle Bodies series.It's in Japanese and unfortunately I don't think there's likely to be a translated version available. :cry: It is an awesome documentary though, with some very cool footage.It attempts to explain what gives Kohei the edge over the competition and hypothesises highly attuned abilities in 3 areas:His sense of where his body is in space: Kohei says he has always been able to tell how many turns/rotations his body has made by counting the number of times he sees, for example, the ceiling. The show claims this is highly unusual. Other gymnasts state that if they tried to see any thing in particular they would be thrown out of balance.His sense of the effect of gravity on his body: He is put in one of those rotating, flight trainer things (don't know what they're called) with no other sensory input. They tilt it by a certain number of degrees and ask him to align an image of a line on a screen with the affect of gravity. He is able to do so extremely accurately.His ability to visualise: He is asked to visualise a certain routine while undergoing an MRI scan. Another gymnast does exactly the same and the results are compared. Kohei's brain is significantly more active. Some parts of his brain, linked to muscle activation, are extremely active while these areas in the other gymnast's brain are not activated at all.They also describe how during the Sydney Olympics many gymnasts were attempting a certain skill on the high bar. Kohei apparently watched video of this obsessively, visualising himself in the skill with all the details of his gym taken into account. The first time he attempted the skill he nailed it.(Keep in mind while reading my summary that I don't know a lot about gymnastics yet - I'm just starting to learn - and my Japanese is not very good. My wife had to tell me what was going on through most of the show, so I could be mistaken! )Anyway, I hope some of you guys can enjoy it! ***EDIT: Hmm... seems like these YouTube links are already no good . Disappointing, as I was going to watch it again myself later. I guess it will appear again eventually. If you want to find it, I suggest searching for: NHK ミラクルボディー å†…æ‘ (NHK Miracle Body Uchimura). The only bit of video from it I kind find right now is the tiny bit on this page: http://www.nhk.or.jp/special/miraclebody/schedule/0715.html***Part 1 of 7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R10_Gw6omjQ &feature=youtube_gdata_playerPart 2 of 7:http://www.youtube.com/v/xi2d-GI6Q1c &fs=1&source=uds&autoplay=1Part 3 of 7:http://www.youtube.com/v/2CLu719Txzg &fs=1&source=uds&autoplay=1Part 4 of 7:http://www.youtube.com/v/f7rIriva2tw &fs=1&source=uds&autoplay=1Part 5 of 7:http://www.youtube.com/v/2AyvG-d1AyA &fs=1&source=uds&autoplay=1Part 6 of 7:http://www.youtube.com/v/cAmwpsB577g &fs=1&source=uds&autoplay=1Part 7 of 7:http://www.youtube.com/v/wh2jDXCi_h8 &fs=1&source=uds&autoplay=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Weaver Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 In the second part the narrator asks how it's possible that he can land how he does. Kohei says he understands where he's at in the air, and the speed of his twist. Then he says that's probably not normal. Really interesting. The narrator says his arms act as wings to slow him down, like brakes as he comes out of the final twist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafael David Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Look him smiling and performing... looks like a real life Goku. Truly amazing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro Mainente Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 i think this specific gymnastics "sense" comes with tons of perfect practice and practice. is the same thing i discovered in breakdance skills where i have to count the numbers of, i.e., of headspin rotation without hands or 1990's simply counting the number of times i see a particular object.for the same thing you reach a sense of position in the space very impressive. know where you are, if you need more space only looking how you moves in some skills. ia fraction of second you use to make the orinetation in the space. in my case airflare 360° can be very dangerous skill but with perfect preparation and practice i've learned if i can do it during the movement or i need more torque or speed, or i have to reduce the jump or accelerate the movement or wait for the jump. tons of operation have to be done and of course corrections in a fraction of seconds! i can't really explain how i do it in more complex routine..now is pretty natural! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafael David Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 i think this specific gymnastics "sense" comes with tons of perfect practice and practiceObviously, there is no such thing as talent (inborn gift) when it comes to physical (body) activity, unless the individual have a genetically gifted body. BUT, when it comes to intellectual (mind) field... Well... is another history... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 i think this specific gymnastics "sense" comes with tons of perfect practice and practiceObviously, there is no such thing as talent (inborn gift) when it comes to physical (body) activity, unless the individual have a genetically gifted body. BUT, when it comes to intellectual (mind) field... Well... is another history...I am going to respectfully disagree with this statement very strongly.There are, in fact, certain people who just "get" certain movements. I don't have particularly good air sense, but I know exactly how gravity is working on my body by feel, for example. They aren't necessarily genetically gifted for strength or speed or endurance, but certain things just work for them that other people have to try very hard to accomplish. There are some people who just go much further with the area they are gifted in than the majority of us could ever go simply because on some intuitive level they just get it, whatever "it" is.It is definitely true that if you have a teacher who can communicate this to you, large improvements can be made by everyone, but the person who has to constantly drill and drill and re-drill their air sense, for example, is just never going to be able to quite catch up with someone who just naturally gets it and doesn't have to think. There really are people like that. I... am not one of them lol!It is hard to believe, but if you want to re-frame this idea as a genetically more sensitive proprioceptive network then all of a sudden it fits that second sentence. Some people have more complicated brain architectures than others in certain areas, and neural development rate does have a strong genetic component just like it also has a strong environmental component.So all I'm trying to say is that much of this "talent" comes from the central nervous system, and that can absolutely be a genetic gift all of its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafael David Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 So all I'm trying to say is that much of this "talent" comes from the central nervous system, and that can absolutely be a genetic gift all of its own. So you agreed with me, because the central nervous system is a physical aspect , not mental. If the individual have it more developed than others, so he's genetically gifted, as I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro Mainente Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 yeah is genetich question without doubts. is the same things comparing people who can adapt to every sport...i've never had problems to perform any sport passing from 11 years of judo, 5 of atletic and 13 of soccer (juso and soccer in the same years), then breakdancing in for 5 years in wich i started with gymnastic. i passed from complete different movements and body parts control. my body adapts and the ability to learn faster is innate. sure that know HOW to train take a big role. but without physical capacity is very difficult. the number of neurons in the premotor cortex that from start to motion planning, imagining and activating muscles, tendons, reflexes, proprioception is determined by the DNA. everything else is the setting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 So all I'm trying to say is that much of this "talent" comes from the central nervous system, and that can absolutely be a genetic gift all of its own. So you agreed with me, because the central nervous system is a physical aspect , not mental. If the individual have it more developed than others, so he's genetically gifted, as I said.Everything we are physically is because of our genetics, they can't be separated. Genes alter the force-producing characteristics of muscle with alpha actinin 3 variations, inherent resistance to eccentric damage, response to nutrition, etc.Same happens with intelligence... we each have a genetically set range of intelligence that we can achieve, based on brain structure. It absolutely changes and improves with exposure to activities, but there are some people who are completely brilliant in this area or that area and pretty much always have been. A number of musicians make an excellent example of this, but there are naturally brilliant minds in all areas. I had a friend whose father is a fairly well-respected mathematician, and by the time she was 13-15 she was doing math that he didn't quite understand. She just gravitated there on her own and was able, for whatever reason, to just be brilliant within the field of mathematics. It was just a part of her. Her dad was just blown away, because that kind of talent is not normal.Maybe we just have communication problems, but it sounded to me like you were saying that there is no such thing as talent in physical activity "unless it is from a genetically gifted body" but that intelligence is something different, and since the brain is a part of the body and the home of our intelligence that statement just... doesn't make sense to me. It's like saying "there's not talent unless there's talent." Which I suppose IS true, but definitely one of those statements. There are soccer players who are great simply because of the way their mind works. All of our bodies are capable of being exceptional soccer bodies, but not all of us have the inherent "game sense" that we need to truly excel at what is widely considered to be a physical activity. Same goes for basketball, martial arts, etc etc. There are also a number of players with very average genetic talent who simply spend all of their waking hours practicing, and while they could never keep up with a genetically gifted person who put the same hours in those same gifted people almost never do so, and so the average person ends up being near the top of their sport. People will call that talent, and perhaps it is the talent of persistence. For whatever reason, not that many people seem to be able to just focus in on one thing and master it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik de Kort Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 . It's like saying "there's not talent unless there's talent." Which I suppose IS true, but definitely one of those statements.For further reference, such statements are not called ':facepalm: statement', but 'vacuously true'. While they are logically correct (this also depends on which school of logic you subscribe to, intuitionism doesn't consider the above statement to be necessarily correct), they have no meaning. They can be very useful in proofs, though./nerdIn any case, it's impossible for certain to tell if someone's 'innate' abilities (the abilities they have at the start of training) are the result of environmental factors or genetic factors. The body is a chaotic system, there's no way to tell what is going to happen next. As such, it is not possible to reverse-engineer the processes either. So we all just have to do our best and see how far we can get. For what fun is it if there is no challenge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafael David Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 In any case, it's impossible for certain to tell if someone's 'innate' abilities (the abilities they have at the start of training) are the result of environmental factors or genetic factors. The body is a chaotic system, there's no way to tell what is going to happen next. As such, it is not possible to reverse-engineer the processes either. So we all just have to do our best and see how far we can get. For what fun is it if there is no challenge?First, isn't impossible. Second, the body ins't a chaotic system for several reasons, we just don't understand it entirely. EVERYTHING in nature is organized and systematic.To the ignorant everything is chaos, but if you going to study something deeply, you realize that there is no magic or random, is just a process. Spend more time watching documentaries or reading books about the universe or about the animal kingdom and you'll found it easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafael David Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 So all I'm trying to say is that much of this "talent" comes from the central nervous system, and that can absolutely be a genetic gift all of its own. So you agreed with me, because the central nervous system is a physical aspect , not mental. If the individual have it more developed than others, so he's genetically gifted, as I said.Everything we are physically is because of our genetics, they can't be separated. Genes alter the force-producing characteristics of muscle with alpha actinin 3 variations, inherent resistance to eccentric damage, response to nutrition, etc.Same happens with intelligence... we each have a genetically set range of intelligence that we can achieve, based on brain structure. It absolutely changes and improves with exposure to activities, but there are some people who are completely brilliant in this area or that area and pretty much always have been. A number of musicians make an excellent example of this, but there are naturally brilliant minds in all areas. I had a friend whose father is a fairly well-respected mathematician, and by the time she was 13-15 she was doing math that he didn't quite understand. She just gravitated there on her own and was able, for whatever reason, to just be brilliant within the field of mathematics. It was just a part of her. Her dad was just blown away, because that kind of talent is not normal.Maybe we just have communication problems, but it sounded to me like you were saying that there is no such thing as talent in physical activity "unless it is from a genetically gifted body" but that intelligence is something different, and since the brain is a part of the body and the home of our intelligence that statement just... doesn't make sense to me. It's like saying "there's not talent unless there's talent." Which I suppose IS true, but definitely one of those statements. There are soccer players who are great simply because of the way their mind works. All of our bodies are capable of being exceptional soccer bodies, but not all of us have the inherent "game sense" that we need to truly excel at what is widely considered to be a physical activity. Same goes for basketball, martial arts, etc etc. There are also a number of players with very average genetic talent who simply spend all of their waking hours practicing, and while they could never keep up with a genetically gifted person who put the same hours in those same gifted people almost never do so, and so the average person ends up being near the top of their sport. People will call that talent, and perhaps it is the talent of persistence. For whatever reason, not that many people seem to be able to just focus in on one thing and master it.I understand what you said and I agree. It is true that intelligence is important in physical activity, but we need to separate things. The mind (where lies the intellect and moral values​​) is a pilot, the body (brain, muscles, bones, organs, etc.) is a car. The intellect and moral values ​​are not hereditary. Just look at families in which parents are geniuses, but the sons are mediocre, or cases in which parents are good people and not so much the sons and vice versa. Also there are cases where the entire family nucleus or most of it are similar in terms of intellectual or moral.A soccer player like Neymar (skinny and small) is not so privileged physically as Cristiano Ronaldo (tall and strong), but his intellect allows him to play beyond the average players. Neymar is a great pilot but his car is not so good, he still can drive very well. Cristiano is great in both, like Schumacher with a Ferrari. There are many variables. Do you get it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik de Kort Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 First, isn't impossible. Second, the body ins't a chaotic system for several reasons, we just don't understand it entirely. EVERYTHING in nature is organized and systematic.To the ignorant everything is chaos, but if you going to study something deeply, you realize that there is no magic or random, is just a process. Spend more time watching documentaries or reading books about the universe or about the animal kingdom and you'll found it easily.Dude, even something as simple as the function f(x) = 4x*(1-x) is chaotic as shit. You tell me where all the periodic points of period greater than three lie and we'll talk. The human body is a billion times more complicated than that function.And if you'd have studied chaos a bit more deeply, you would have learned that just because something is a systematic process doesn't mean we can calculate what it will do, or reverse-engineer it. A very easy example of this is the modulo operator. It basically gives you the rest after division. So 5 modulo 4 would be 1, while 9 modulo 4 also would be 1. So even if you understood the process (calculating modulo 4) and have the outcome (the outcome is 1), you cannot know what the input was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafael David Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 COMPLEX isn't CHAOTIC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 . It's like saying "there's not talent unless there's talent." Which I suppose IS true, but definitely one of those statements.For further reference, such statements are not called ':facepalm: statement', but 'vacuously true'. While they are logically correct (this also depends on which school of logic you subscribe to, intuitionism doesn't consider the above statement to be necessarily correct), they have no meaning. They can be very useful in proofs, though./nerdIn any case, it's impossible for certain to tell if someone's 'innate' abilities (the abilities they have at the start of training) are the result of environmental factors or genetic factors. The body is a chaotic system, there's no way to tell what is going to happen next. As such, it is not possible to reverse-engineer the processes either. So we all just have to do our best and see how far we can get. For what fun is it if there is no challenge?HAHAHA!!! Nice, I am going to remember that... 'vavuously true' is awesome.I suppose that's true to the point that there are extraordinary cases like brain injury, physical debilitation from injuries or nutritional deficiencies/excesses, etc, but when it comes to actually acquiring skills and being able to express one's intent through physical action there is always a genetic component to how advanced this can get. It's not normally solely genetic though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik de Kort Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 COMPLEX isn't CHAOTIC.Now you're just arguing semantics. Maybe we have a different definition of chaos (mine comes from the mathematical side of things), but the point still stands: just because you know the output and know the function does not necessarily mean you can find the input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafael David Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Doesn't mean that we can't find too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Doesn't mean that we can't find too.To be fair, quantum mechanics tells us differently. You can know where something is going OR how it is getting there but not both at the same time. You have to pick. The very act of observing a location appears to destroy all ability to observe any movement data for the same particle. You may know where something is, but have absolutely no idea where it came from and no way to find the origin because there is no data related to the movement, which is required information to find an origin.Math is pretty funky and this kind of thing is well beyond what I actually understand, as it's way outside my normal field of study. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dzejkej Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Here is a clip from the documentary.Vftx-ikXeF0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
u3er Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Found new a link for the documentary!http://ameblo.jp/kohei-uchimura-love/entry-11304563093.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dzejkej Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Found new a link for the documentary!http://ameblo.jp/kohei-uchimura-love/entry-11304563093.htmlThanks a lot . Great job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Yorke Posted July 27, 2012 Author Share Posted July 27, 2012 Found new a link for the documentary!http://ameblo.jp/kohei-uchimura-love/en ... 63093.htmlAwesome, thanks a lot for that Kohei was on the TV here again the other night. They showed a clip of him competing for the first time at the age of 7. It didn't go well at all. In fact he did so badly that as he stepped off the mat after his floor routine his Dad came over and smacked him on the backside! Surely another factor in his current success Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Venus Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 This is a documentary that was on Japan's NHK channel on Sunday night. Part of their Miracle Bodies series.It's in Japanese and unfortunately I don't think there's likely to be a translated version available. :cry: It is an awesome documentary though, with some very cool footage.It attempts to explain what gives Kohei the edge over the competition and hypothesises highly attuned abilities in 3 areas:His sense of where his body is in space: Kohei says he has always been able to tell how many turns/rotations his body has made by counting the number of times he sees, for example, the ceiling. The show claims this is highly unusual. Other gymnasts state that if they tried to see any thing in particular they would be thrown out of balance.His sense of the effect of gravity on his body: He is put in one of those rotating, flight trainer things (don't know what they're called) with no other sensory input. They tilt it by a certain number of degrees and ask him to align an image of a line on a screen with the affect of gravity. He is able to do so extremely accurately.His ability to visualise: He is asked to visualise a certain routine while undergoing an MRI scan. Another gymnast does exactly the same and the results are compared. Kohei's brain is significantly more active. Some parts of his brain, linked to muscle activation, are extremely active while these areas in the other gymnast's brain are not activated at all.They also describe how during the Sydney Olympics many gymnasts were attempting a certain skill on the high bar. Kohei apparently watched video of this obsessively, visualising himself in the skill with all the details of his gym taken into account. The first time he attempted the skill he nailed it.(Keep in mind while reading my summary that I don't know a lot about gymnastics yet - I'm just starting to learn - and my Japanese is not very good. My wife had to tell me what was going on through most of the show, so I could be mistaken! )Anyway, I hope some of you guys can enjoy it! ***EDIT: Hmm... seems like these YouTube links are already no good . Disappointing, as I was going to watch it again myself later. I guess it will appear again eventually. If you want to find it, I suggest searching for: NHK ミラクルボディー å†…æ‘ (NHK Miracle Body Uchimura). The only bit of video from it I kind find right now is the tiny bit on this page: http://www.nhk.or.jp/special/miraclebody/schedule/0715.html***Part 1 of 7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R10_Gw6omjQ &feature=youtube_gdata_playerPart 2 of 7:http://www.youtube.com/v/xi2d-GI6Q1c &fs=1&source=uds&autoplay=1Part 3 of 7:http://www.youtube.com/v/2CLu719Txzg &fs=1&source=uds&autoplay=1Part 4 of 7:http://www.youtube.com/v/f7rIriva2tw &fs=1&source=uds&autoplay=1Part 5 of 7:http://www.youtube.com/v/2AyvG-d1AyA &fs=1&source=uds&autoplay=1Part 6 of 7:http://www.youtube.com/v/cAmwpsB577g &fs=1&source=uds&autoplay=1Part 7 of 7:http://www.youtube.com/v/wh2jDXCi_h8 &fs=1&source=uds&autoplay=1Ain't Kohei the guy who fell off the pommel horse the other day? All I have to say is a few words.Spatial awareness. Kinaesthetic sense. Sense the direction of gravity.Thats what made that Kohei guy an Olympic calibre gymnast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 Ain't Kohei the guy who fell off the pommel horse the other day? All I have to say is a few words.Spatial awareness. Kinaesthetic sense. Sense the direction of gravity.Thats what made that Kohei guy an Olympic calibre gymnast.Nope. That was Hidvegi Vid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dzejkej Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 Nope. That was Hidvegi Vid.Kohei also fell of during his dismount in team finals, so Sailor may be speaking about the correct gymnast . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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