Strength elements

[Jordi Van Gelder]

Hello!

I've made a compilation of the most important strength elements in order based on the code of points. I've mixed different moves, not only on rings. Some of them are not in the code, but i ranked them. I added the lsit and galimores from gymnasticbodies videos, hope its not a problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmYW3VCm ... ture=inbox

Feel free to comment and criticize, maybe some ranks are incorrect.

Hope you like it!

[Paradox]

An interesting video. Thanks for compiling all of that.

Though I cannot say I agree with all of your rankings. A few examples: I feel that a front lever row is actually easier than the front lever position. Same applies to the planche and the planche push-up. Also, after a meticulous examination, it seems that the v-cross shown in the video was entered from a kip, which makes it a D value, I believe. But it was cutoff so I'm just nitpicking

That deltchev movement is amazing, though!

[Brian Li]

An interesting video. Thanks for compiling all of that.

Though I cannot say I agree with all of your rankings. A few examples: I feel that a front lever row is actually easier than the front lever position. Same applies to the planche and the planche push-up. Also, after a meticulous examination, it seems that the v-cross shown in the video was entered from a kip, which makes it a D value, I believe. But it was cutoff so I'm just nitpicking

That deltchev movement is amazing, though!

How can a front lever row or a planche push-up be easier than the statics themselves? You should normally have the statics before being able to do concentric/eccentric movements from a static. I just find that strange and feel the statics are easier and prerequisites. The compilation was pretty nice by the way.

[Gregor]

Press to japaneese HS is C value on floor (MAG Code of points)..Rows and static FL should be same value.

Backuprise to Planche is D (MAG Code of points)...Kip to IC V-seat is D (MAG Code of points)...mana to HS is C (passing trough HS), D only if holded (in video it seems guy is not holding it just slowly passing trough HS)...Inverted MU should be B :wink: ....

[Jordi Van Gelder]

wow, too much mistakes...but don't want to delete and reupload again lol, i had several problems with the video editor.

Inverted muscle up only B??? i read in this forum that it was D. Well, its really hard to do that curl to handstand....

[Gregor]

Also an iron cross was not always just a B skill :wink: Front lever used to be a B, now is A

Inverted MU is not harder as normal IC, you just need to train it (ok maybe, but just maybe C-I would still put it B).

[Mark Weaver]

An interesting video. Thanks for compiling all of that.

Though I cannot say I agree with all of your rankings. A few examples: I feel that a front lever row is actually easier than the front lever position. Same applies to the planche and the planche push-up. Also, after a meticulous examination, it seems that the v-cross shown in the video was entered from a kip, which makes it a D value, I believe. But it was cutoff so I'm just nitpicking

That deltchev movement is amazing, though!

How can a front lever row or a planche push-up be easier than the statics themselves? You should normally have the statics before being able to do concentric/eccentric movements from a static. I just find that strange and feel the statics are easier and prerequisites. The compilation was pretty nice by the way.

Because you're not holding a front lever for the whole row. I start off at the top of a chinup and start my row, rotating my body to horizontal, but I'm only in a full front lever for a brief moment before rotate back to the starting position. The level of effort to maintain the FL position increases until you're actually in the position, then decreases and you go back to the starting.

Crappy explanation. All I know is I'm in the Advanced Tuck for my static hold, but I can do a few reps of FL rows with my body in full lay (correct term?) position.

[Ian Myers]

An interesting video. Thanks for compiling all of that.

Though I cannot say I agree with all of your rankings. A few examples: I feel that a front lever row is actually easier than the front lever position. Same applies to the planche and the planche push-up. Also, after a meticulous examination, it seems that the v-cross shown in the video was entered from a kip, which makes it a D value, I believe. But it was cutoff so I'm just nitpicking

That deltchev movement is amazing, though!

How can a front lever row or a planche push-up be easier than the statics themselves? You should normally have the statics before being able to do concentric/eccentric movements from a static. I just find that strange and feel the statics are easier and prerequisites. The compilation was pretty nice by the way.

Because you're not holding a front lever for the whole row. I start off at the top of a chinup and start my row, rotating my body to horizontal, but I'm only in a full front lever for a brief moment before rotate back to the starting position. The level of effort to maintain the FL position increases until you're actually in the position, then decreases and you go back to the starting.

Crappy explanation. All I know is I'm in the Advanced Tuck for my static hold, but I can do a few reps of FL rows with my body in full lay (correct term?) position.

Correct me if im wrong, but i believe you are reffering to front lever pulls, which involve only holding the full front lever once per repetition. Front lever rows are performed while in the full lay position the whole time :twisted:

[Rik de Kort]

Because you're not holding a front lever for the whole row. I start off at the top of a chinup and start my row, rotating my body to horizontal, but I'm only in a full front lever for a brief moment before rotate back to the starting position. The level of effort to maintain the FL position increases until you're actually in the position, then decreases and you go back to the starting.

Crappy explanation. All I know is I'm in the Advanced Tuck for my static hold, but I can do a few reps of FL rows with my body in full lay (correct term?) position.

That's a front lever pull. Front lever row has you doing pullups with your body horizontal the whole time.

[Mark Weaver]

Oh that's right, I'm thinking pulls, not rows. For my rows, I'm in the same position as the static hold.

[Joshua Naterman]

An interesting video. Thanks for compiling all of that.

Though I cannot say I agree with all of your rankings. A few examples: I feel that a front lever row is actually easier than the front lever position. Same applies to the planche and the planche push-up. Also, after a meticulous examination, it seems that the v-cross shown in the video was entered from a kip, which makes it a D value, I believe. But it was cutoff so I'm just nitpicking

That deltchev movement is amazing, though!

How can a front lever row or a planche push-up be easier than the statics themselves? You should normally have the statics before being able to do concentric/eccentric movements from a static. I just find that strange and feel the statics are easier and prerequisites. The compilation was pretty nice by the way.

The leverage involved with the static positions has a lot to do with that. Planche is much lower leverage at the top, so a bent arm planche is much easier than a straight arm planche. You can do planche push ups from bent arm nearly up to straight arm long before you can do the fully locked out position.

With FL, it is kind of the opposite... With FL, a fair bit of the lats loses their leverage and so they can't produce as much torque as the body rises during the pull, and they are the prime mover so full lay FL rows are going to be harder because other muscles have to be stronger to compensate for the reduced torque from the lats, and the upper lats themselves have to be stronger because the lower portion contributes less and less as you rise during the row.

[Brian Li]

The leverage involved with the static positions has a lot to do with that. Planche is much lower leverage at the top, so a bent arm planche is much easier than a straight arm planche. You can do planche push ups from bent arm nearly up to straight arm long before you can do the fully locked out position.

Yes, but I wouldn't consider those legit planche push-ups if they can't push up to the locked out planche without momentum and needs to have acceptable body position (eg. little to no arching).

With FL, it is kind of the opposite... With FL, a fair bit of the lats loses their leverage and so they can't produce as much torque as the body rises during the pull, and they are the prime mover so full lay FL rows are going to be harder because other muscles have to be stronger to compensate for the reduced torque from the lats, and the upper lats themselves have to be stronger because the lower portion contributes less and less as you rise during the row.

Yes, FL rows are definitely harder than the FL alone. Nice explanation and I just tried to hold a bent arm FL with an elbow angle about 90 degrees and found that it was almost as hard as a locked arm FL. What I find strange is that a slightly bent arm FL is easier than a locked arm FL which sort of goes against your explanation. I'm not doubting your explanation though.

[Joshua Naterman]

It doesn't, though that is good critical thinking, because the advantage you gain from the reduced lever length and slightly longer triceps (that are more likely in the sweet spot for sarcomere length) is greater than the advantage you lose at the shoulder. There may even be advantage gained at the shoulders at the tissue level with the bent arm, but that's literally impossible to measure in vivo. There is also the issue of GTO reflex possibly capping force production in certain muscles with straight arms, as the elbow flexors would be taking less of the load and the triceps would be taking more.

Competitive positions often aren't at ideal muscle lengths, but the specifics are pretty much impossible to map out.

[Nic Branson]

Or you can get really down into things and explain it as a slight bend allows for increased leverage due to typically seen pennation angles. Of course very few people need to know or care anything about pennation.

Edit: Pennate are very important to gymnasts. Unless you are really into advanced muscle physiology though, consider this me flexing my brain a bit and ignore it.

[Joshua Naterman]

Or you can get really down into things and explain it as a slight bend allows for increased leverage due to typically seen pennation angles. Of course very few people need to know or care anything about pennation.

Edit: Pennate are very important to gymnasts. Unless you are really into advanced muscle physiology though, consider this me flexing my brain a bit and ignore it.

Exactly, it is so not worth breaking down! There are so many factors that most people don't even know anything about that it just isn't worth it to me

[Brian Li]

Thanks for the info and explanation guys. So would you guys say a bent arm FL (~90 degree angle at elbows) is harder or more disadvantaged than a straight arm FL (I wasn't sure if Josh's post about more advantage gained than disadvantage in the bent arm FL referring to all bent arm angles or just slightly bent) or is this part of what you guys believe is not worth breaking down?

[Joshua Naterman]

Thanks for the info and explanation guys. So would you guys say a bent arm FL (~90 degree angle at elbows) is harder or more disadvantaged than a straight arm FL (I wasn't sure if Josh's post about more advantage gained than disadvantage in the bent arm FL referring to all bent arm angles or just slightly bent) or is this part of what you guys believe is not worth breaking down?

It's not worth it. Whether it is harder or not depends heavily on what muscles are weakest on you, but the general experience is that it is harder to do a FL row than it is to do an FL. I have never played around with independent bent arm static positions.

It doesn't really matter much what is harder anyways, since we should be doing both straight and bent arm work in FL position.

[Brian Li]

Thanks, I see what you mean. So we need to be very very strong in the upper lats to be able to FL row up to 2 inches from the bar like Zef? That's crazy, I can't even pull that close to the bar even in adv tuck and don't know who else could.

[Nic Branson]

Traps! You need very strong scap retractors to stabilize your upper back and give the lat's a stable base to pull from. Can pull with your lats until the cows come home but you will not move if you cannot set your scaps and squeeze them together as you get closer.

[Joshua Naterman]

Thanks, I see what you mean. So we need to be very very strong in the upper lats to be able to FL row up to 2 inches from the bar like Zef? That's crazy, I can't even pull that close to the bar even in adv tuck and don't know who else could.

Yes, like Nic said you have to have some serious trap strength for this to be developed. I hate getting into specifics because people tend to focus on that specific bit and forget all the rest of what applies to whatever the subject happens to be

I have no trouble pretty much touching my body to the bar in adv tuck for a few reps, but full lay would probably tear my shoulder up at the moment. I haven't done a full lay FL row in like 2 years, almost. I never had Zef's ROM or control though.

[Brian Li]

Thanks for the helpful and knowledgeable responses once again Nic and Josh.

[Nic Branson]

I hate getting into specifics because people tend to focus on that specific bit and forget all the rest of what applies to whatever the subject happens to be

So much this. In regards simply to this topic, there is a reason we always discuss movement over muscles. There are so many variables and each one is dependent on the others. It's easy to say that there is one weak link and there may be, but that one weak link also prevented connecting links from getting stronger and developing. Fixing your weak point leads to finding another one and another. The quest for balance is on going and even changing. By fixing it you now allow your body the ability to adapt properly to your training. Proper progression is there to minimize the need to take too many steps backwards due to injury, imbalances etc.

[Jordi Van Gelder]

Sorry for open this old topic, but i've made a new version, extended and without mistakes (i believe)

 

 

Hope you like it!