Ineffective routine?

Hi all,

I've been doing BtBG since September and I think I've made some great gains but wanted to post again as my routine has changed quite a lot and I'm still unsure about a few things.

My biggest concern is that I've not given enough time to 'over-load, load, unload', I blame my ego. Yesterday, after dropping adv.frog for BL and Fl for about 3 weeks I decided to add frogs into my routine again but did the basic frog stance, when I moved up to adv.frog in the past I could hold 60s but it wasn't exactly pretty (I know the book says to stay with it till it's rock solid before moving up... again I blame my ego) However yesterday it was rock solid, like the best I've ever done a frog and after 3x20s I still felt great and it occurred to me this is probably what the underload stage feels like. So I'm thinking of going back to square one and start a routine that's going to work!

Current routine:

Mon - Fri:

Morning Yoga 40 mins, 5 mins handstand work

Sat:

prehab: wrist, fingers, a few push ups etc

FSP:

FL: 1 le extended 3x20s

BL: legs extended 3x20s

FBE:

pullups 3x3 + 20% bodyweight

Sun: rest.

My new routine:

Mon - Fri:

Yoga 40 mins, 5 mins handstand work

Sat:

Prehab

FSP:

FL: tuck 3x20s

BL: tuck 3x20s

L-sit: 3x20s

Frog: 3x20s

FBE:

pullups 3x3

PPP 3x3

My questions:

1. Do I need more days a week in there (Mon/Wed/Sat, Wed/Sat or Mon/Tue/Thu/Fri etc)? I don't get a lot of free time, I play 1.5hr of piano in the evenings and would have to drop this on any days that I wanted to add a workout. My goals are only modest; get a little stronger and healthier. But would a 1 day a week routine be a total waste of time?

2. have I got enough FBE? if I was doing 2 or more days a week how would I modify my current workout day?

Hope this isn't too inane a post.

Thanks.

Murray

Three or four days a week would be much better. You can try a killroy70 template that way. If you only have three days a week, just cycle through over the course of four weeks.

Superset to save time. Supersetting works as follows: take a push and a pull. Pick one to start with and do your first set. Rest 2.5 minutes, do your first set for the other movement. Rest 2.5 minutes and go for your second set.

Do L-sit, HS, FL, BL in your warmup, following the 50% of your max protocol. This should not take long, I'd only do up to 4-5 sets (so if I'm working 10s L-sit, I'd only work 4-5 sets) so that saves a little more time. If you do them as a circuit you can save more time. It's a warmup, after all.

Especially up the volume on the FBE's. 3x3 is not a whole lot to drive adaptations. You can do this by simply adding more reps (going up to 3x5), which won't cost a whole lot of time.

If you're doing KillRoy and superset, you should be done in about 40 minutes or so, so you still have 50 minutes to play the piano.

What type of music do you play? Classical, or modern as well? Boogiewoogie really is one of the most fun styles I've ever played.

Thanks Rik,

I figured I wasn't doing enough despite making gains. I might try and shift my routine to the mornings and try a 4 day a week approach.

That's some great help with the supersets! I've heard of the Killroy70 template before but could never find it using the search function any chance of a link or just a brief outline?

I play classical and it's one of the biggest parts of my life that I'd hate to sacrifice time in. My lesson are expensive and weekly so I really need the time to practice to make it worthwhile. Unfortunately exercise comes 2nd to music for me but I think I can find the time for it even if it means getting up a little earlier.

Thanks again.

Is it this the killroy70 one?

I've been a member of the list since I started my BtGB program this past January 09.

I began with a very basic program, working out 4 days/week and working four static positions every day, which included:

1) planche variations

2) BL variations

3) FL variations

4) Handstand work

After I finish my static work for a given workout, which generally consisted of 7-10 sets of each movement, the remainder of my workout looked like this:

Day 1 - horizontal plane pushing and pulling FBE

Day 2 - curling (inverted pullup) and dipping variations (RTO dips, etc..) FBE

Day 3 - pullup and HeSPU variation FBE

Day 4 - multiplane pulling variaions + varied pressing work

Anyway, I didn't want to get into anything that I considered even remotely advanced until I had become somewhat proficient in some of these exercises. Just to give an idea of progress, I'll give a quick list of where I began with the FSP (very first workout) and where I'm at now (i.e. yesterday's workout):

1) Planche variations: Frog stand 12 sec hold; tuck plance 10 sets of 8 sec holds

2) BL variations: tuck BL 8 second hold (VERY difficult, uncomfortable); FULL BL 10 sets of 4 sec holds (plus some reversals out of the BL to an inverted hang)

3) FL variations: Tuck FL 10 sec hold; 1/2 FL (one leg fully extended, one tucked, alternating e/set) 10 sets 4 sec holds (5 holds/leg)

4) Handstand work: couldn't even get into a handstand; kicking up into a handstand, using the wall as a "spotter", and working 10 sets of 20+ second holds (at the 20 second-mark, I'd stop using the wall as a spotter and go for as long as I can free standing)

**5**) When I started I was training the L-sit, but I felt it was really compromising my FL work, however, when I started I could not hold a floor L-sit for even 1 second; Yesterday, I tested and held a pretty good V-sit for a full 10 seconds. Surprised the hell out of my self!

**6**) One other area of very surprising progress: When I began, I couldn't do one since XR muscle up (even after devoting nearly 8 months of Crossfit work last year, no ring muscle ups achieved). Yesterday, I performed 15 single non-kipping muscle ups. They weren't perfect, pure-strength slow muscle ups, as there was a bit of leg movement, but definitely nothing that resembled a "kip."

Anyway, looking through my logs for the last couple of months, I'm pretty stunned at my progress following coach sommer's progressions.

It is beyond me why it isn't stickied in the Getting Started forum, but here it is, in the Ring Strength forum.

Perfect! Thanks Rik.

Hopefully my final question: times, reps and sets?

FSP:

In the Killroy70 he states doing in his routine; 10 reps of 8s tuck planche which would be 80 seconds and handstands of 10 reps of over 20s in the BtGB doesn't it recommend a total time of 60s or does this only apply to later progression like the planche where you would do 10 x 6s, if so how do I know how long to hold each FSP? My frog stance for instance I can hold for a minute though it isn't pretty, my 50% would there for be a 30s hold do I only do 2 reps or should my total time for each FSP be much higher? and should be aiming for higher sets like killroy70 "which generally consisted of 7-10 sets of each movement" but less time in each say 6s hold but a tougher progression, my tuck planche for instance I think I can get 10s so my 50% would be 5s x 12?

FBE:

Pull ups, ppp, dips, HeSPU etc all 5x5 or 3x5 and only 2 exercises a day?

Doesn't really matter. I'd say about 3-4 sets of 10-20 seconds is enough TUT to drive adaptation. If you have shorter holds, you'll need more sets. Maybe Josh will have more ideas on that.

Max hold is only perfect form. If it's 'not pretty', it's not perfect form so that does not count. If your max is 60s with perfect form and you have finished your SSC, you should move up a variation!

A few more more points, is 3x5 3 sets of 5 reps or 5 sets of 3 or doesn't it matter?

Also I've read lot about about how essential handstand work is, should I add it as part of my FSP and do 5 (frog, BL, FL, L-Sit and HS) or drop a FSP?

Thanks.

3x5 is 3 sets of 5 repetitions each.

Handstand work is VITAL. The two most important things for beginners are HS and L-sit, IMO. So definitely add that in. It'll be skill work, so keep doing the rest of the FSP's.

Thanks again Rik, it's people like you who make this a great site. I hope if I ever make enough progress I can return the gesture and volunteer some of my own time and help those new to gymnastic workouts.

Handstand , PB support, dead hangs and hollow hold would be the most important things for beginners, but hollow holds are the first step towards L sit.

L sit is absolutely the one FSP that it is very important to focus more on in the beginning, along with the handstand (which is not listed as a FSP per se, but is the most important area of upper body strength to develop since proper development in this area gives you a very strong and stable shoulder girdle with trap strength and endurance to spare. Very important for later strength work! Developing a straight arm press to HS is by far more important than developing a straddle planche.)

If your time is constrained, I would consider taking two of those yoga days (you do monday THROUGH friday, not just monday AND friday right?) and doing a quick 10-15 minute yoga warm up and spending the next 25-30 minutes on basic FBE. Pull up variations, horizontal rows, push ups, and partial HeSPU would be my exercises of choice given your time constraints. If you can actually perform PPP properly then by all means perform them!

Nothing wrong with starting at 3x3 if you like, but build up to 3x10 or so with these basic movements before you move on and don't speed up to get more reps! Dips are also an excellent idea, but STAY HOLLOW! Don't stare at the ground either.

I would make sure to build 3x30s german hang before messing with BL, and always warm up with a single german hang very day, even for yoga.

As for the FL, as long as your elbows are locked and your shoulders are in a fairly neutral (not fully protracted) position you should be ok.

Don't forget your hollow holds!

Hi Josh,

I started my new routine today. It's basically be a killroy70 M/T/T/F and dropping yoga from 5 days a week to just once on Sat.

Today I did:

FSP: FL, Frog, L-sit, BL, HS all 3x20s with good form.

FBE: 3x5 PPP and the upside down row things (knees bent).

Took about an hour.

Tomorrow will be the same FSP but with vertical FBE so HeSPU and Pull ups. So on and so forth through the week changing the FBE. This will stay the same for 6-12 weeks and then I will look to progress up the FSP and move my FBE to 4x5 (or would you recommend 3x6 with the aim being 3x10 eventually?).

Is this the best way to continue? Are The exercises you recommend are from the Prerequisites sticky, I looked at that before and was comfortable with the times and holds, I was actually comfortable doing all the FSP I mention but should I back off to the ones you recommend? You say 3x30s german hangs before messing with the the BL but I'm actually more comfortable in a tuck BL than I am in a tuck FL, again I can still hold these 3x20s without too much effort. I've come to gymnasticbodies from a martial arts / free weights background so I'm not a total beginner fitness whys but do you think I need to dial my routine back further?

Thanks for your input and help.

You might regret going down to just one day a week of yoga if it means you aren't doing any mobility / flexibility work otherwise.

There are a number of ways you can get it in there.

As great as partial HeSPUs are, if you aren't doing dips I'd consider them, or if your PUs are great then switch them to dips, with maybe a warm up set of PUs.

I also wonder why you aren't doing any leg strength.

Cheers Cole. I might do yoga Wednesday as well.

I've not chosen all my FBE yet, I haven't had a chance to go through the BtGB book for a while but I know it'll go something like:

M: horizontal plane

T: vertical plane

T: multiplane

F: curling / dipping

I'm not doing any leg strength work so I may switch out Thursdays Multiplane for Pistols, GHR progression and possibly some core work. What do you guys think?

Thanks again.

mtruelove said:

Hi Josh,

I started my new routine today. It's basically be a killroy70 M/T/T/F and dropping yoga from 5 days a week to just once on Sat.

Today I did:

FSP: FL, Frog, L-sit, BL, HS all 3x20s with good form.

FBE: 3x5 PPP and the upside down row things (knees bent).

Took about an hour.

Tomorrow will be the same FSP but with vertical FBE so HeSPU and Pull ups. So on and so forth through the week changing the FBE. This will stay the same for 6-12 weeks and then I will look to progress up the FSP and move my FBE to 4x5 (or would you recommend 3x6 with the aim being 3x10 eventually?).

Is this the best way to continue? Are The exercises you recommend are from the Prerequisites sticky, I looked at that before and was comfortable with the times and holds, I was actually comfortable doing all the FSP I mention but should I back off to the ones you recommend? You say 3x30s german hangs before messing with the the BL but I'm actually more comfortable in a tuck BL than I am in a tuck FL, again I can still hold these 3x20s without too much effort. I've come to gymnasticbodies from a martial arts / free weights background so I'm not a total beginner fitness whys but do you think I need to dial my routine back further?

Thanks for your input and help.

Nothing but hollow holds builds the hollow position. You can't exclude those. If you already have an easy 60s hold fully laid out with proper form, do one 60s hold at the beginning or end of each workout. Same goes for german hang, you need that shoulder mobility and strength in the stretched position. These two are pretty much mandatory. You should practice entering every BL hold from a german hang. German hang isn't considered good unless your body is nearly vertical and straight.

If you are pressed for time drop frog. Until you have a very solid 30+s floor L sit with proper form I wouldn't bother with any planche FSP work. Planche leans are a good idea if you can stay hollow. If not, don't bother. Hollow is everything.

No one on here can tell you anything for sure without seeing video of the FSP you are performing. Form is bad more often than it is good. Show us some video so we can make better recommendations! Video of your FBE will be good too.

Thanks again Josh that's great advice. I'll drop frog and work more on the hollow hold and I'll add german hangs in as well before BL. That would be 6 FSP to 2 FBE is that an ok balance?

I think those of us who have been around for a little while have finally come to appreciate the supreme importance of getting a decent hollow body position from the beginning.

I'll be honest, I think many of us had our doubts about this as first heard during the seminars. I can't go into the specifics mentioned there, but, having FINALLY just met the basic levels of hollow body work, I can say there just is no substitute. Josh has discovered the same thing, coming from the exact opposite body type and background.

Hollow is king and arch body is queen, both of these must be mastered and will make what comes next more profitable.

Regarding your workout schedule the only other comment, is are you going back to a fairly unfocused workout. You'll have to see, if you aren't progressing on any front, it means you are doing too many different workouts a week. Everyone is different and the various movements do support each other, so it could work out fine, but keep an eye out.

I know it's tempting to try to do everything all at once but sometimes that just leads to spinning your wheels.

Of corse there are other exercises that take a lot of recovery time, squats are like that for me, I seem to do best at one squat session every 7-10 days.

Pull ups on the other hand I stagnate if I don't do them twice a week. Maybe some young buck will find 3x a week is the right amount. This is one reason why there is no such thing as an optimal training plan, start somewhere, and make adjustments.

Just keep this in mind as you observe your progress over time.

Finally especially in the beginning - don't make it so complicated that you spend more time thinking about what you should do than doing it.

I'm never one to turn down good advice so I'll follow what you guys have to say.

For FSP then:

OLD: Frog, BL, FL, L-sit and HS

New: Hollow, Arch, German hang, L-sit and HS

My times might look something more like this then?

Hollow 1x60s

Arch 1x60s

German 1x60s

L-sit 3x20s

HS 3x20s

Thanks again guys.

Cole Dano said:

I think those of us who have been around for a little while have finally come to appreciate the supreme importance of getting a decent hollow body position from the beginning.

I'll be honest, I think many of us had our doubts about this as first heard during the seminars. I can't go into the specifics mentioned there, but, having FINALLY just met the basic levels of hollow body work, I can say there just is no substitute. Josh has discovered the same thing, coming from the exact opposite body type and background.

Hollow is king and arch body is queen, both of these must be mastered and will make what comes next more profitable. (...)

I had to check just now, but there is no mention of that in the book, nor a precise description of the exercise/position, etc... Nothing!

Maybe, because it is that important, it would be good to have a detailed description, tutorial, mistakes to avoid, etc... Both these postures seem so basic and easy to perform that I am now thinking that it must be really easy to screw them up, not knowing what exactly is required.

I've had a very humbling morning. I got my flatmate to spot me and check my form, turns out it's mostly awful... So my morning went something like this:

3x30s Hollow hold

3x30s body arch

3x20s german hangs

3x20s L-sit

3x30s HS

3x5 Pull ups

3x5 HeSPU

Felt great but was really exhausting. What sort of time should I stay in this cycle 6-10 weeks?

Tomorrow is yoga!

FredInChina said:

Cole Dano said:

I think those of us who have been around for a little while have finally come to appreciate the supreme importance of getting a decent hollow body position from the beginning.

I'll be honest, I think many of us had our doubts about this as first heard during the seminars. I can't go into the specifics mentioned there, but, having FINALLY just met the basic levels of hollow body work, I can say there just is no substitute. Josh has discovered the same thing, coming from the exact opposite body type and background.

Hollow is king and arch body is queen, both of these must be mastered and will make what comes next more profitable. (...)

I had to check just now, but there is no mention of that in the book, nor a precise description of the exercise/position, etc... Nothing!

Maybe, because it is that important, it would be good to have a detailed description, tutorial, mistakes to avoid, etc... Both these postures seem so basic and easy to perform that I am now thinking that it must be really easy to screw them up, not knowing what exactly is required.

I think Coach expected us to look at the pictures and copy the body shape. At the time of publishing, no one had any idea that this would be such a big deal! Not to worry, the situation is being handled. I have found myself in a ridiculously busy semester, so I haven't had time to finish the hollow video.

Joshua Naterman said:

(...) I think Coach expected us to look at the pictures and copy the body shape. At the time of publishing, no one had any idea that this would be such a big deal! Not to worry, the situation is being handled. I have found myself in a ridiculously busy semester, so I haven't had time to finish the hollow video.

I understand that Joshua, I did not mean to sound like I was complaining (I was not!); thank you for acknowledging that it is needed and for taking steps to correct and adjust.

I don't think it needs to be complicated, just a point of reference to be able to verify if what we are doing is correct would be perfect.

With Hollow Body Hold, the key feature of all it's variants is that the entire lower back is touching the floor.

In terms of difficulty the variant chain will go from tucked with hands on the floor, to straight high legs, arms bent but back, and from there gradually more extended. One can combine the various arm and leg positions many ways, but the lower back should always be firmly on the floor, and the body rounded enough that the shoulder are off the floor.

I can be helpful to think of lower belly and bottom ribs here, both are pressing into the floor to create the shape. Connect the pressing of the lower belly to the leg lift and of the lower ribs to the upper body rounding.

Cole Dano said:

With Hollow Body Hold, the key feature of all it's variants is that the entire lower back is touching the floor.

In terms of difficulty the variant chain will go from tucked with hands on the floor, to straight high legs, arms bent but back, and from there gradually more extended. One can combine the various arm and leg positions many ways, but the lower back should always be firmly on the floor, and the body rounded enough that the shoulder are off the floor.

I can be helpful to think of lower belly and bottom ribs here, both are pressing into the floor to create the shape. Connect the pressing of the lower belly to the leg lift and of the lower ribs to the upper body rounding.

Thank you Cole Dano,

(1) should the glutes be activated at all times?

(2) lower back in contact with the floor and shoulders up... should the contact with the floor should start at the pelvis and end at the lower scapula?

I think I have the hollow pinned down, but there are many small "tweaks" that make the position vary in intensity or where the intensity is felt:

For instance, activating the glutes makes the anterior pelvis tilt easier but requires more pushing of the belly button down (activated glutes elevate the butt). Shoulder flexibility (opening) plays too: I can extend the arms back (and hold a weight there if I wanted to), but due to poor shoulder flexibility, if I want to keep my arms on my ears, it strengthens my thoracic spine and there is more pressure in the lower part of the scapula to the floor...

For some reasons, if the legs are just a little bit apart instead of strictly held together, it is much easier on the hip flexors.

...

etc...

Fred welcome to the wonderful nuanced world of bodyweight training!

Yes the glutes should be active, and as you noted that is very important for flexing the hips.

That activating the glutes while firming the belly and pushing it down is the heart of the hollow hold. The belly won't be flat, it sort of swells as you firm the abs. Sometimes I'll push on a persons belly and tell them to push back with the belly to help them get the feeling.

The contact with the floor should end about at the lower scaps, since the upper back is rounded to me it feels a bit lower still, but that's a good reference point.

HBH is like many of the 'basic' holds interesting because there are so many little things one will find that make it harder or easier, as well as big one's like the tucked, or piked variations. As always master an easier one first then make it harder.

That was always one of the things I enjoyed about yoga, the fact that there were always new discoveries to made in postures even after having done them for years. It also goes to show that as much as we talk about the body in terms of individual muscles, there is a complex system of signals to vast array of muscle spindles all over the body, and this firing is in a constant flux. There are always spindles turning off or on in unique combinations. It's really quite a marvel.