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alec_ar

Victorian Progress

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alec_ar

Yea, I got it from my Facebook friend Pitbull Training's page, and asked if I could use it here. I guess it's originally from flickr. Anyway I posted it to get second opinions more professional than mine. Im pretty sure it is a static hold. The only fishy thing is that his thumb isn't gripping at all. Anyhoo, if it is a static Victorian, it's the most beautiful I've seen! It's practically perfect.

Wonder why he doesn't throw these into his routines. Seeing a Victorian after a Van Gelder would just be sick.

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alec_ar

Hello I'm back with a brief progress update! Lately I haven't been training full-lay Victorians because I don't have the strength to properly execute attempts of the full thing :P

I have mainly been working foot and/or strap assisted VC's and I'm feeling stronger than before. As always I am diligent to keep my elbows locked, and attempting to keep a good body line as well. Please check out my vid and leave any comments or critiques as to how you think it is most effective to train this move. Feel free to share videos and experiences as well! Ideas are always appreciated :)

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andiswf

hey!

very nice work!

i cant do a victorian by now ;) but there were some time I tried real hard for that skill! what helped me to feel more comfortable with this position:

* Dream machine!!!!

* Dream machine with weight instead of rings & extra fixed rings to support on: the dream machine belt is fixed to your core and the other half of the rope with the weight is asisting you! you have to install a fixed pairs of rings where you support ;) I love that variation! (had only 7kg asistance at the end where i was training this method!)

* Front levers!

* again Front levers! with weight on the feet (2x2,5kg)

* again front levers! with weight-chest(10kg)

* again front lever! Hold position on rings for 10-30sec while the rings are swinging ;) (old video of that here: Hqp7Kjo5Gog )

* again front lever! on a bar and try some (asisted) pull ups to a victorian-like position(bent arms)

ok i think you got my point of view?! >>FL! in all variations. some on this forum say the main target with FL is CORE strength...

i dont mind what it is most.. but i know it was effective and helped me getting colser to a victorian!

some tricep work is also always good! maybe try to find one with straight arms?!

last time i tried this skill REAL hard was 2009 (if anyone wants to see: H0zaAeiqwhs or "lately": b2tA0UeFn54)

as I got my swallow=maltese cross ready for competition

I can now start on the victorian again..

your work on that skill inspires me somehow, thx & keep it on!!!!

IMPORTANT: it seems to need a lot of inner rotation..so working the outher rotation should be extremely recommanded and necessary for a healthy balance! (inpingement, (long) bicep tendon...)

AND for me 2x/week training "real" strength positions on rings is the maximum! tendons need more time to adept than muscle! its so much stress!

I had a inflamation on my bicep tendon even while paying ALOT of attention to regeneration :/ ..and the 6month rest of ALL bicep work was not funny!

some years ago i found an article about static training, saying that: above 30sec of statics you gain also some hypertrophy type for the specific angle(+-10degree?!) "Isometrics for Mass"

so holding victorian for 30-60secs in dream machine should also help...(I could only hold 40secs...)

maybe anyone got detailed information about this?!

on the discussion here with retracted shoulders I will have to overthink that again and try some exercises...

maybe someone can come up with more specific exercises focusing on that location for the victorian.

>>>>>>>>>> PHYSICAL PREPARATION <<<<<<<<<<

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Joshua Slocum
IMPORTANT: it seems to need a lot of inner rotation..so working the outher rotation should be extremely recommanded and necessary for a healthy balance! (inpingement, (long) bicep tendon...)

AND for me 2x/week training "real" strength positions on rings is the maximum! tendons need more time to adept than muscle! its so much stress!

If you do straight-arm holds 2x per week, how often do you work bent-arm strength? Currently I do straight-arm holds on rings once/week and then bent arm strength once per week as well: I feel like that's pretty taxing on my muscles already.

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Yaad Mohammad

Yuri's Victorian is simply perfect?! I tweeted him, hoping for a response. I replies sometimes to some people!

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andiswf

If you do straight-arm holds 2x per week, how often do you work bent-arm strength? Currently I do straight-arm holds on rings once/week and then bent arm strength once per week as well: I feel like that's pretty taxing on my muscles already.

Dont know if you can compare: as a gymnast I had a time with 10x training/week.. so I was generaly well prepared!

I did bent arm strength for some "basic"/preparation strength 2-3x/week! with less stressing straight arm work on the other days.

I dont do that much bent arm workout for now.. because I am focusing only on statics for rings. back to topic: victorians would be lovely :P

working steady with babysteps for long term is ALWAYS faster as overdoing it with a need of a 6month rest caused by injury!

Regeneration is AS important as training!!!

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alec_ar

Hello Andiswf and welcome to the topic! First off thank you for your detailed response! I really appreciate stuff like that. It's always great (and kind of surprising) when I hear of other people working for the Victorian Cross, I always feel like I'm the only one haha! Are you a gymnast by the way?

Anyways, thank you for the tips, they will be very helpful I'm sure, as I am revisiting my FL strength at the moment...I wish I had a dream machine, would come in handy for the VC and I wonder how different it would feel compared to the ring trainers I primarily use. As for the external rotation, I am very diligent at trying to keep a balance as best I can ;) I also want to say that I'm flattered and thrilled to inspire you to return to training the Victorian! That means a lot, and inspiring people is one of my goals. I would love it if you and others started posting your own progress and ideas here! (btw, your link's weren't working on my computer for some reason)

Quick note: it has been asked on the forum but never with any definite, professional response, so I do not know if the Victorian is meant to be protracted, retracted, or somewhere in between. That being said, I was initially told it was retraction, so that's how I started training it...But over the past couple months I've switched to somewhat-protracted shoulders. It feels stronger and more comfortable for me. I've studied Danny Rodrigues' VCs a lot and can its hard to tell but it looks like he tends to do both, just depending on the routine. I've seen still shots of him with a protracted VC, but for example, I'm pretty dang sure that at Beijing, he did VC's with pretty neutral scapulae. It usually looks like his shoulder capsule is pushed forward, so I think he tends to protract. Food for thought.....clarification from a knowledgeable source would be nice too :P

And as for Yuri Van Gelder's Victorian, I asked coach if it was legit and he said it was impossible to tell from a still haha! But I don't presonally believe it is a static hold, and he was just passing through the position. If he had THAT perfect a VC you'd think he'd throw it in a routine. I've seen him do a VC in a dream machine, but even in that he had bent arms...also, if you look closely at the photo, his hand seems too relaxed and his thumb is just kind of 'hanging out'. In a static Victorian, you'd have an insane grip going on hehe.

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andiswf

yeah, I am a gymnast and coach ;)

Just build yourself a dream machine! its easy! but pay attention to build it safe!

Somehow I was too silly to use the cross trainers.. I couldnt feel the positions and my core had to work unusual.

With the dream machine its amazing if you try to fix the belt in the COM.

for the nature of the victorian, you should have retracted shoulders.

If your too week (like ME) you cant hold the stress and your shoulders fall into protracted position.

SO, I will go with tons of retraction exercises for the start, because protracted I cant do better than this:

197120_3794503791136_2143602966_n.jpgpic from me holding the position in early 2007 ;)

imagine the same body shape from the pic with retracted shoulders!

I hope thats my missing link?!

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Joshua Slocum

Dont know if you can compare: as a gymnast I had a time with 10x training/week.. so I was generaly well prepared!

I did bent arm strength for some "basic"/preparation strength 2-3x/week! with less stressing straight arm work on the other days.

Well, I don't work out quite that much, but I have 5-6 practices a week for 2.5 hours each, so I'm not exactly slacking :P . It's primarily skill work, but twice a week I do a high-intensity strength training session; one bent-arm and the other straight arm. I was wondering if you think I should include some lighter straight arm work (e.g. lower into strength holds with a spot/counterweight) on other days of the week.

Quick note: it has been asked on the forum but never with any definite, professional response, so I do not know if the Victorian is meant to be protracted, retracted, or somewhere in between. That being said, I was initially told it was retraction, so that's how I started training it...But over the past couple months I've switched to somewhat-protracted shoulders. It feels stronger and more comfortable for me. I've studied Danny Rodrigues' VCs a lot and can its hard to tell but it looks like he tends to do both, just depending on the routine. I've seen still shots of him with a protracted VC, but for example, I'm pretty dang sure that at Beijing, he did VC's with pretty neutral scapulae. It usually looks like his shoulder capsule is pushed forward, so I think he tends to protract. Food for thought.....clarification from a knowledgeable source would be nice too :P

The front-lever and manna are both supposed to be retracted. I think most people would reason that a victorian should be retracted as well because your arms push the same direction as in those two holds. Rodriguez seems to be neutral or slightly protracted, but he also suffers from a bit of the same problem Andi shows in his picture: Rodriguez's hips always seem to be below the rings.

It may be that retracting the shoulders with that arm position is prohibitively difficult. So, like Andi said, you should probably do a lot of exercises to strengthen your shoulder retractors.

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alec_ar

Cool, thanks for the help guys. And Andiswf, nice attempt! I'm very impressed with the shoulder-hand alignment in the photo! I think people who don't try for Victorian don't realize how hard that is! Nice achievement. If you didn't stop training it you'd probably have a really decent one by now :P

Anyway I'm gonna continue training with RETRACTED shoulders and so far it feels great...don't quite remember why I switched it up to begin with. It might be harder this way, but luckily I have a reasonable amount of retraction strength already built up. Pretty soon I'll upload a progress video.

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alec_ar

I uploaded an attempt of me trying Victorian leans with 'retracted shoulders' instead of protracted like I had been doing. It's under Mirroredrain's Victorian Training log for anyone interested. I sort of start in what is my version of a low manna, and then try to slowly lower into a tuck Victorian. Feels okay, but I want to make sure I don't start training a Molinari instead of a Victorian, because that's what it sometimes looks like. I swear training Victorian in a tuck position is much weirder than its other progressions!

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andiswf

nice work, again!!! your shoulders look good!

especially it is a good retraction exercise!

the "low mana" variation is also a good idea! I also train this :P

however, you are training the molinari position for SPECIAL, and not the victorian, because your hands go mainly to the side! (bit forward, but thats the molinari position!)

victorian handposition would be somewhere near your supposed COM in a victorian (around hips) depending on overgrip and so on..

the opposite of your tucked try would be the overwhelming "bar barian"-video with the victorian on Pbars!

of course, thats too much for rings! and may not work on rings?!

As a VARIATION-training it is SUPER!!!!! and people who are not training this, can't imagine how hard that is!!

some hints for the SPECIAL training:

static straight arm strength needs pure bent arm power as a basic and good physical preparation (muscle, tendon, bone..)

static training affects (only) the trained area +- 10degrees (some literature say +-20°)

static holds between 30-50sec (some literature say 20-60) have significant hypertrophy (or some sort of) compared to few secs holds

so your holds that are more than 20° away from victorian position, are NO victorian training; BUT good preparation exercises! and good general conditioning (for victorian!! the term of general conditioning may be used differently when not used victorian-specific! ;) pls dont start a conversation about this!!!)

befor you can hold the postion itself, you need tons of preparation exercises.

core, retractors, triceps, inner rotators...

+ for no injury you need to stay balanced (wont go into detail.. if you train a victorian you should know what its about..especially with the inner rotation and inpingement/long head of bicep...)

if you are enough prepared, the main focus should be the position with some sort of help to make it easier (dream machine, soft-bouncing, partner..)

varying with short and long holds ?!

so maybe gathering the preperation exercises could help? I will try to record some soon. PLS everyone help here.. the more exercises we find the better!

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andiswf

motivated by Mirroredrain and the bar-barian-boy with the victorian on "PB"

I made a short clip with my thoughts about how I could get to the victorian ;)

watch at you own risk!

while recording this today..I felt I was missing the same strength I train with the first exercises.. so I will focus on retraction exercises!

more exercises are welcome! and would help a lot!

the more the better!

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alec_ar

Thanks for the upload my friend. Great supplementary exercises! I'm gonna try some of those (some of them I already do). You are strong btw :)

Anyways I got a little confused, what did you mean by SPECIAL? What is that? Thanks for the detailed post and the compliments by the way!!!

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