Old School Indian Club Swinging

[Cole Dano]

I was talking to my friend Mike Simpson today as he was on his way to see a real old timer. He made a little three part video. I realize this isn't for everyone, but I know a couple here who are interested in the this old art, and this is perhaps the only example of true old time swinging I've found documented. Most of the stuff on YouTube is utter crap. (With a couple of exceptions)

Mike will be doing a workshop with us next month anyone in Finland feel free to check it out. Clubs have become a vital part of my prehab work. At one time these were in every gymnasium, over time people seem to have just forgotten how to use them.

Here is the 3rd and most entertaining part

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[Nic Branson]

Very nice. If only my work looks that effortless.

So when does my ticket to Finland arrive?

[newguy5000]

his movements are so fluid. It looks like the clubs weigh nothing. I have never seen clubs used in this particular way. Is this how they were used more back in their heydey by Indian wrestlers?

I'd be very interested to hear more on how you use, and how useful you have found, clubs for prehab in your training. I have been considering getting some for quite some time but have never done so.

[Cole Dano]

The wrestlers both Indian and Iranian are well known for using clubs. They mostly use heavier clubs and a much simpler swinging technique. The heavy clubs are outstanding not only for shoulder connective tissue preparation but also for the grip.

I have a ten pound set of Iranian clubs and still find it challenging to do more than 30 swings.

The style here is what was developed in the west in time club swinging was all the rage. What you see here is what anyone who knew how to use the lighter clubs was doing. It's just all been lost.

I first saw club swinging in a Indian movie and somehow it registered that it would be great for my screwed up shoulders. The thing with the clubs is the swings contain virtually every type of shoulder movement. They get the scapula to work as well as the rotator cuff (the little turns are more than for show) plus wrist and elbow. That's quite a bit but on tip of that it takes coordination, in fact I'm sure that my coordination has improved leaning even the basics I know.

[newguy5000]

That sounds great. Maybe i should commit and get one. I imagine its not too hard to start with a very light one and incorporate a series of swings into your warmup?

[Cole Dano]

That's what I did, along with lot's of digging on the web, and DVD buying. I personally think people need to start with just the one pounders until the movements make sense. I'm trying to get the free info collected on my website but have been slow. There are a few excellent resources. Ask when you get the clubs.

[newguy5000]

Will do. Thanks for the info I plan to begin like you said with the 1 pounders and build up. I'm mainly interested in their prehab effect at this point.

[Cole Dano]

That's where they shine.

[Nic Branson]

I second the 1lbers. Amazing for prefab and warm up.

[newguy5000]

Living in Perth Western Australia unforutnately means shipping costs for these kind of things is high. My brother works out at powerlifting gym that has a whole bunch of them so i might work out with him for a month and swing the clubs and see how they feel. Something fun about just swinging stuff around as well

[Cole Dano]

Try to contact taraswolkowinski via YouTube or Paul Taras Wolkowinski via Facebook.

He's the club man in Australia and has begun making clubs there.

[Coach Sommer]

... I personally think people need to start with just the one pounders ...

Great advice about the one pounders. Last year someone brought a three pounder into the gym and while experimenting with it my elite athletes quickly developed sore elbows that lasted a week.

We haven't touched them since.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Blairbob]

how about using baseball bats? easily available virtually everywhere. little league bats weigh roughly a pound.

[Jason Stein]

Cole and all,

The gentleman in the video appears to have very fluid and what appears to me to be great coordination.

I know my friend here at Crossfit Portland has prescribed clubbell drills and exercises to clients for many, many years, though derived from Sonnon's CST system.

I believe (though he may jump in to correct me) he favors light clubbells for people coming off the desk, or recovering from injuries, in order that they might learn cuing and stabilization/activation of shoulders. The exercises are quite a bit more rudimentary than in the video, though.

I know there's a big, heavy custom-made strong-man-type club taking up wall space in the gym, too (next to the "slosh pipe").

I will say, though, that with the light clubs I have had phenomenal success with elbow and wrist prehab as well as increasing forearm internal/external rotation.

best,

jason

[Nic Branson]

I started with clubbells before going to the lighter ones. I 100% of the time have people start with the 1lbers. The benefits are huge for wrists, elbows and shoulders. Aside from beneficial lubrication they increase neuromuscular coordination. Used them to help female clients achieve pull ups. From the lack of activity growing up they don't typically have the movement coordination. Same for desk jockeys.

For alot of athletes, might never go over 2lbs.

[Coach Sommer]

Sounds like after the competitive season ends, I need to have my guys spend some time with the 1lbers.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Cole Dano]

I'll be happy to give a short demo in Nov and when I come to Az in January.

[Indeep Jawanda]

Having grown up in Northern India in the Punjab, I have been to many 'wrestling akharas' growing up.

his movements are so fluid. It looks like the clubs weigh nothing. I have never seen clubs used in this particular way. Is this how they were used more back in their heydey by Indian wrestlers?

The turning of the small clubs in the wrist was created by the British. It's more of a circus act. You have to grip the club, and not 'spin it' in the palm of your hand.

The wrestlers both Indian and Iranian are well known for using clubs. They mostly use heavier clubs and a much simpler swinging technique. The heavy clubs are outstanding not only for shoulder connective tissue preparation but also for the grip.

I have a ten pound set of Iranian clubs and still find it challenging to do more than 30 swings.

The 5, 7, 10, 12 and 15 pounder-ish clubs are actually used as a 'prehab' (this term doesn't exist in indian wrestling terminolgy, but basically same thing - preventing injury, shoulder/arm health etc). They are used as a 'prehab' for the very heavy clubs - called Indian Mugdals (can't find much info on these on the internet)

Indian Mugdals would weigh from 20-40 kgs each with thick round, atleast 2-2.5 inch diameters around the handle area to grip. The ones shown in the DVD's 'The Physical Body 1 and 2' are similar but they have much thinner handles. The objective was for a wrestler to grab his opponent with his bare hands (usually the neck or shoulder area) and fling him left, right or backwards or forwards to the ground using just the strength of his arms and hands. A feat that would be accompanied by loud drumming during an actual wrestling match.

I have some very old 1970 era rural 'punjabi language films' (from my parents collection) on vhs where they show the 'hero' of the film training with these Mugdals, spinning them around his head, one or both hands at a time, done rhythmically for low reps to the sound of indian drums (dhols), almost meditatively. Mind and muscles work together.

On a side note, there is an ancient anecdote/folktale in Indian books that the Indian emperor Shah Jahan - guy who ordered the building of the Taj Mahal - had some perfectly symmetrical heavy clubbells made out of 100% white marble from the Taj Mahal 'leftover' marble for his personal collection, but he could never lift them. He declared that any wrestler who could lift and swing them could have 'any woman' from the royal court. Doesn't say what actually happened though. All the Indian emperors were Persian during this period (from Iran), and that could explain the intermixing of the clubbell swinging cultures between Indian and Iranian wrestlers....getting off topic, but interesting tidbit nonetheless.

As regards grip, one thing I have seen wrestlers in India do is take some extra rope (from their rope climbing ropes), and tie it around the thin handle clubbells, just the lower portion where they will be holding it. This makes the handle about 2-2.5 inches thick or so (wrestlers generally had huge hands). This provides additional grip strength endurance training, and adds an added dimension to forearm and wrist work. Swinging in this fashion for up to 5 mins straight is really tough with a 7-10 lb club. It is meant to simulate gripping human flesh for extended periods of time - much needed in traditional Indian wrestling, where the wrestlers are 97% naked.

how about using baseball bats? easily available virtually everywhere. little league bats weigh roughly a pound.

I know my friend here at Crossfit Portland has prescribed clubbell drills and exercises to clients for many, many years, though derived from Sonnon's CST system.

When you try the traditional ones and the do-it-yourself varieties, you will just feel the difference....I don't understand the how or why of it though

The Sonnon type black clubs no way compare to the 'traditional ones'

Sounds like after the competitive season ends, I need to have my guys spend some time with the 1lbers.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I have never heard the 1-2 pounders used anywhere in India, before the British came in, it is a British invention I think. However, I have personally seen wrestlers use a stone pestle (mortar and pestle), which they used as a way to grind almonds with for a traditional drink, and saw them using these small stone pestles in exactly the same way the British started doing - small and large multi-directional movements in all directions for arm and shoulder health.

I have literally seen them grind some almonds for a few minutes, then perform some of these movements, and repeat the whole process. A similar but different picture is provided below on the look and size of stone pestles used. They could weigh from 1-7 pounds depending on the size, however the smaller length allows you do do movements without striking your head accidentally.

May want to try those pestles out if you have some in your kitchen

The only place I found to sell the real traditional 10 pound-ish and heavier clubs has been very small shops in very rural parts of North India, but that is too impractical. The best ones I have found (my brother uses them mostly, not me) in North America have been from http://www.revolutionclubs.net

http://www.indianclubswinging.co.uk/buyindianclubs.htm has some of the British style clubs also

If you see anyone using clubs for the lower body or core work or anything like that, then it is mostly marketing, never been used like that traditionally.

Anyways, clubbells are excellent for the arms, wrists, elbows and shoulders, just try to stay away from the 'tricks or circus acts' of spinning in the palm of your hand. It is equivalent to 'pen spinning' - rotating a pen with your fingers, its for show and not for substance.

The fact that modern gymnast style trainers and ancient wrestlers have come to the same conclusion about them is in itself fascinating.....like Solomon says, Nothing new under the sun.

[Cole Dano]

Very nice post.

There are a number of styles of Indian club swinging. Keep in the mind the video I posted was more for the value of seeing that style being performed by an older gentleman who learned it from his father. So to your and my eye there are some technical errors, but it's rare to see anyone doing the wrist movements that were developed by the British and were once very popular throughout the west.

From what I've been able to gather with the light clubs, there is a style called 'fancy club swinging' which indeed has the club held very lightly in hand with many intricate twirls. However in the British style the intention is to do the swings from the wist and grip the club. I've seen Ed Thomas do this, and can do it myself, though not as many combinations as the video displays.

As far as I can tell the reason for starting with light (one pound) clubs is for most people the movements don't make sense and until they figure out the patterns the swings are not very fluid. In fact rather than swinging the clubs they are just getting moved around in something vaguely resembling the pattern. Then there is more likely hood of the problems mentioned before happening. Once the swings are understood then going heavier is not an issue, even some of the wrist circles are possible but not all.

I still like to use the light clubs, for learning more patterns, which is great coordination training, but as you state this was a British 'innovation'. For shoulder strength I use the joris I have and use 5 pound Indian Clubs for rotator cuff work. I tend to run the rack doing different movements with different weights. Next year finances permitting I will get some heavier clubs once I can do 100 jori swings, I'm at 30/set now.

The huge 40kg joris are truly awesome swinging them is a true feat of strength, then there are those with the nails (forget the name) astounding. Even my 10 pound set is very challenging to the grip after 15 or so swings my forearms are on fire.

It's very interesting to hear from someone who has seen Kushti training in person. I've only seen it via DVDs, but find it fascinating. I've also seen them do the circular movements with dumbbells and it looks very intelligent to me. Of course no legged rope climbing was also an important part of their training as well as many other exercises that are also found in gymnastics prep. There is nothing new under the sun indeed. Kushti / Yoga asana / Gymnastics are but a few of the arts around the world that share many commonalities and I find the more I study these traditions the more complete picture I have of physical culture.

I would love to hear more about the training methods you've witnessed.

[Nic Branson]

Fancy Club hmm always heard it as "twirling" For warming up and joint mobility just awesome.

I do prefer the simpler and heavier movements for conditioning as well. Heaviest I've tried is the 45lbs from Sonnon and it is a beast.

Definitely interested in hearing more as well.

[newguy5000]

Thought i should post here that the source Cole suggested for Australian Indian Clubs turns out to live in Western Australia where i live. So if any other Perth people looking for Indian clubs and don't want to pay shipping this is a real boon.

[Cole Dano]

Small world! Please feel free to add your experience with Paul to this thread, he's one of the few guys out there who seems to know what he's doing and very actively working on expanding his knowledge of this forgotten art.

[newguy5000]

Will do. Looking forward to getting my hands on some of his clubs. I did some practice swings with just my arms and holding a small stick in my hand of moves i saw on the internet and it felt quite good and actually left me sweating a little. Can't wait to try the actual clubs.

[Mark Plas]

Hi Cole,

Most of the stuff on YouTube is utter crap. (With a couple of exceptions)

Do you think the information supplied here is correct:

The exercises shown around 5:00 seem easy enough and look like a good starting point. Or not?

And if you don't have any clubs, would using two dumbbell handles or pieces of galvanized pipes have a similar or good enough effect to get started?

Thanks,

Mark

[Cole Dano]

Yes Army is one of the good sources of information out there. There are some minor variations on that swing he shows, but that is a good place to start, and then to learn to make it fluid.

I'm not sure what the best substitute is if you don't have clubs, I have a feeling dumbbell handles won't feel that great at first, but I suppose you could try. Before our clubs arrived, we used cut down broom handles with a yoga belt rubber-banded to one end. I bet you could do the same with some duct tape and a few bolts.