Trapbar squats??

[John Dalton]

This is an unusual question for a gymnastics site but I trust it more than others because of people like Slizz and other barbell users, so here goes....

I wonder if trap bar squats (not deadlifts) are a good alternative to back squats since i dont have space for a power rack and i'm not a fan of doing back squats off squat stands coz i train alone. I can break parallel while standing on a box and using the low handles.

I can get a trapbar quite cheap but are trapbar a good move for the lower body? how about hack squats? or should i just stick to regular deads and dumbbell squats?

[Philip Papandrea]

Hi,

Not sure if you can call it a direct replacement for squats or deadlifts but Trap bar deadlifts(squats) are an excellent lower body exercise in its own right. This is the main lower body movement i use since I train at home and it works great for me. I prefer to put the weight down on the floor and pull from the floor each rep making it more of a deadlift but have also done what you propose which is pick the weight up and then just hold it and squat with it for reps. I do seem to get more sore in the quads this way. Doing it from a box will get you even greater range of motion so you should be able to squat below parrallel.

Phil

[John Dalton]

found this link which says Deadlifts are bad

do you think this applies to trapbar squats? i would also like to keep heavy deadlifts off blocks in my routine. are deadlifts performed with good form actually dangerous like they say??

Thanks

[Nic Branson]

Deadlifts are NOT bad. Wrong wrong wrong. Deadlifts done wrong are bad. Any movement done wrong is bad. The deadlift is a more fundamental movement then just about anything we do. Watch children pick things up that are heavy for them, they deadlift them. Proper deadlift utilizes a good hinge at the hips bringing all your powerful muscles into the equation with a well stabilized back. Proper recovery is also important as the movement is taxing. So managing the load, frequency and volume are important.

Most of the injuries have to do with form, lack of recovery, other factors such as poor movement / flexibility to begin with.

Trap bar deadlifts are a good movement, do them intelligently and there is no reason to be concerned.

Now for pulling off of blocks. Why are you pulling off blocks? Just seeing if there is a particular reason. I used to enjoy using blocks every now and then when I was lifting heavy, so not telling you not to, just asking why in order to help more.

[Daniel Burnham]

found this link which says Deadlifts are bad

do you think this applies to trapbar squats? i would also like to keep heavy deadlifts off blocks in my routine. are deadlifts performed with good form actually dangerous like they say??

Thanks

Deadlifts done in the correct fashion are definitely not bad. I consider them to be one of the best weighted exercises for lower body strength development.

No back to the initial topic. I don't think that trap squats are a good alternative to a back squat or even a front squat for that matter. Firstly it doesn't load the body like the squats do. You won't have the benefit of a line of load down your body like the squat gives when placed on the back. Its better than doing nothing but I don't see it being much safer. With a bar you can just roll it off your back if you consider the weight too heavy. You really shouldn't be failing on the lift if your programming is done corectly anyway.

[John Dalton]

Thanks for the replies.

Nic, i pull off blocks because i don't have the flexibility to pull off the floor while maintaining the perfect lower back arch.

burmhand, i understand your reasoning. can you roll off the bar down your back safely when doing back squats? :shock: can you share a video link to show how it is done? so do you think i'll probably be better off doing front squats instead of trap bar squats? also what do you think of zercher squats and goblet squats?

[Nic Branson]

ok, before you consider lifting heavy you need to address the flexibility. Lifting heavy off the blocks will hinder your progress to developing the flexibility for a full pull to some degree. You really should address this now.

Rolling the bar down the back is not something you should even get into a position to do. I trained alone most of the time when I was competing. Use loads you know you can handle and stop a rep or two short if you start to get fatigued. It's not really safe to roll it down. I've done it before...

Front squats are really good and easy to dump.

Zerchers are great as are goblets. Goblets are good for flexibility assuming you do them properly. A lot of people don't.

[Blairbob]

Cressey only uses the trap bar dl/squat though he is also very careful with pitcher shoulders. I would prefer the same for most gymnasts as it's safe, I don't have to worry about dropped DB/KB, loading cost and easilbility to DB/KB, and possible less hypertrophy to lower body but with the benefits of a DL to PC. I also don't need squat stands and have to worry about putting a bar on their shoulders and back.

It's not as good as a BS for building strength but it comes out ahead when tallying up costs vs benefits.

[John Dalton]

thank you for all the replies

I also pull off blocks which are 7cm tall because the 20kg plates i have are only 33cm in diameter while the standard height of 20kg olympic plates is 45cm. the lowest part of my back loses its arch when i pull off the floor but i can maintain a perfect arch when the bar is 22.5cm off the ground.

Clearly the trapbar dl/squat is nowhere near any barbell squat in terms of leg development. But i'd like to include it along with front squats and zerchers.

Blairblob, what is the main heavy lower body movement you use? Do you use a trapbar? if you do, how are you gains in terms of leg size and strength?

I dont want to remove the deadlift out of my routine and one of the reasons i wanted to know about trap bar squats is that i want an exercise that will help the initial pull off the floor. So will the exercises you all have given me help with the drive off the floor?

I almost forgot......what do you guys think about the hack squat?

[Daniel Burnham]

Thanks for the replies.

Nic, i pull off blocks because i don't have the flexibility to pull off the floor while maintaining the perfect lower back arch.

burmhand, i understand your reasoning. can you roll off the bar down your back safely when doing back squats? :shock: can you share a video link to show how it is done? so do you think i'll probably be better off doing front squats instead of trap bar squats? also what do you think of zercher squats and goblet squats?

I don't have a video but might be able to make one sometime this week. I didn't mean that you should let it roll all the way down your back. I've been under the bar without a spotter several times doing stupid reps and I just kinda shrugged it off the back and tucked my butt in so it wouldn't hit. Again you really shouldn't be in this position as its not really beneficial to go to complete failure anyway.

I think that front squats combined with deadlift covers the lower body pretty well. It doesn't produce the same total body strain that the back squat does, but still develops strength well. On weeks when I only get the barbell once I chose to do front squats and deadlifts instead of trying to do back squats along with deadlift.

[John Dalton]

It'll be great if you can make a video!!!

Is it true that many male gymnast do back squats with 2xBW??

[Nic Branson]

thank you for all the replies

I also pull off blocks which are 7cm tall because the 20kg plates i have are only 33cm in diameter while the standard height of 20kg olympic plates is 45cm. the lowest part of my back loses its arch when i pull off the floor but i can maintain a perfect arch when the bar is 22.5cm off the ground.

Clearly the trapbar dl/squat is nowhere near any barbell squat in terms of leg development. But i'd like to include it along with front squats and zerchers.

Blairblob, what is the main heavy lower body movement you use? Do you use a trapbar? if you do, how are you gains in terms of leg size and strength?

I dont want to remove the deadlift out of my routine and one of the reasons i wanted to know about trap bar squats is that i want an exercise that will help the initial pull off the floor. So will the exercises you all have given me help with the drive off the floor?

I almost forgot......what do you guys think about the hack squat?

Not really a block DL since you're not using them to exceed the height of a normal DL. As for pulling off the floor I would need to know what the weak part of your lift is. Is it breaking it off the floor? does it stall after? It sounds like you're talking about the start, ensure good body alignment and tension. Don't start the lift loose. Beyond range DL, snatch grip DL has helped some people. How is your upper back strength? Traps etc. That could have an effect.

If a trap bar is what you have then use it. You need to also use a regular bar if you want carry over more efficiently. Hack squats, assuming you mean with a bar the it would depend on if you can do them properly.

On the bar roll. It's basically a shrug of the shoulder pushing the bar back and off. Honestly I would prefer any video of this not be public. It's not something that should in any sense be encouraged. It's a way out from under the bar when you over exert yourself from bad planning. The things that could go wrong can be bad. I understand that it's not being stated to be good thing but some people just peruse these forums and if they see a video can get the wrong idea. Think big picture please...

[John Dalton]

I am talking about the start of the lift. I dont think the upper body is the weak link here and i'm definitely pulling with tension throughout my body and my belly filled with air. My lockout is fine but I fell my lower body is weak in pulling off the floor. I can actually pull close to 2xBW with snatch grip for reps.

I understand it is not wise to encourage people to roll the bar off their backs, but i'd like to have a trick up my sleeve if the situatioin ever arises.

[Nic Branson]

I understand you asking, I personally just do not feel it should be put in the public view to keep it from being taken the wrong way, you can pm videos . Your snatch grip sounds strong I'd look at your hip position during the standard pull. A minor adjustment might make the difference. Hard to tell without watching you lift but it does not seem to be strength related from what you've said.

[Blairbob]

for myself, I just front squat and back squat-high bar style. I've done low bar last year but am now focusing only on the Olympic lifts. I've toyed with the idea of clean/snatch pulls instead of dl or stiff/straight leg dl.

but what I might do is different than what I would do for gymnasts I coach. it also has to do with facilities and equipment

if you are doing back squats with bumpers or oly plates on a platform, you just swing your elbows forward while popping your hips forward to dump it off your back behind you as you go forward. maybe there is a shrug, ive only had to do it once, maybe since I usually squat in a cage

[seiyafan]

found this link which says Deadlifts are bad

do you think this applies to trapbar squats? i would also like to keep heavy deadlifts off blocks in my routine. are deadlifts performed with good form actually dangerous like they say??

Thanks

did you see the 284 dislikes?

[Joshua Naterman]

The consensus here is correct, deadlifts are incredibly important! Many times beginners need to build up to 35-45 lbs on arch ups/back extensions before deadlifting, which really only takes around 2-3 months (my experience so far with completely untrained beginners).

As for the trap bar squats, it's more of a quad dominant deadlift than a squat, but it is certainly not crap. I don't think you should fear back squats, just be intelligent in your programming. Use a weight that you know you can handle 7-8 reps with and do sets of 5 reps and a shorter 90s-3 minute rest period, depending on what you want. You will always know when you hit that set where 5 reps isn't going to work out, and you just stop on what you believe is the last good rep. Always slightly conservative. As you learn your body you will know more precisely what you are feeling for. Nothing wrong with starting to go down, saying I DUNNO dude, and just coming right back up. That's what you have to do when you train alone without bumper plates. Same with front squats.

Having said all that, cheap bumper plates are barely more expensive than metal plates, so you might want to pick some up for your squatting. 55 bucks for 45 lbs as opposed to about 1 dollar per pound for the metal plates. These are, of course, thick bumpers. Pendlay actually sells decent ones for fairly cheap as well. steel insert, not brass, extruded on both sides to pinch the rubber in place. Good stuff.

Hack squats... Once I learned how to do them correctly, which meant starting off with an empty bar and going up 10-20 lbs at a time for about 15 sets to get used to how they change as weights get heavier, I absolutely loved them. People have absolutely no idea what I am doing when I do them, it's pretty fun to watch the faces in the mirror. They are also a more quad dominant dead lift.

[MCem222]

While we're on the topic of squat variations...how do people feel about zercher squats? I've never really gotten into the groove of back squatting, the most I've done is 195 for 5 and my form feels shaky. I took up zercher squatting ~6 weeks ago and I went from 165x5 (when first learning the movement) to 230x5 in that time, and I plan on hitting 240x5 tomorrow. Is it a mistake to not be back squatting, or is it fair game to keep zercher squatting and return to back squatting when I feel I'm no longer getting stronger from zerchers?

[Nic Branson]

Do both. No need to limit things to one or the other. They are different. Used to use Zercher deadlifts and carries to help for event training. The effect on core strength from mixing in Zercher lifts is great.

[MCem222]

Do both. No need to limit things to one or the other. They are different. Used to use Zercher deadlifts and carries to help for event training. The effect on core strength from mixing in Zercher lifts is great.

What did you compete in? Strongman?

I've been having a lot of trouble with the back squat. I feel like I have no leverage at the bottom. I wonder if its because I'm flexible enough to go ass to grass, so stopping when my thighs are parallel to the ground gives me no sort of stretch reflex. I also learned today that my improvements in the zercher didn't help my back squat much. I zerchered 240 for 4, but back squatting 185 was still challenging

[Nic Branson]

Yes strongman/PL. This is my main background for both myself and those I have trained. Amateur to Pro clients.

If you are stopping at parallel, stop right there. Do not do this. If you have good form then keep going. Parallel among other things as not being as beneficial as full range, it is also the most difficult part of the lift on the knees. Why are you stopping at parallel? Is there a reason?

I would need to see you squat to get a better idea. When you say no leverage how does it feel like you are failing? Out of the bottom of the lift you need to lead with your head so your back and hips rise at the same rate.

With the zerchers the carry over is not direct also you need to do them for about 3 months to see how they will effect everything else. I think your issue is a technique problem with the squat.

[MCem222]

If you are stopping at parallel, stop right there. Do not do this. If you have good form then keep going. Parallel among other things as not being as beneficial as full range, it is also the most difficult part of the lift on the knees. Why are you stopping at parallel? Is there a reason?

There really isn't a good reason. When I first started squatting I suffered from a "butt wink" when I hit parallel. Despite the fact that I could easily squat ass to grass with no weight, it seemed that back squats made my lower back round and caused stiffness the next day. That doesn't really happen anymore, but now I'm left not know how deep to go

For the record, heres an old video of me backs squatting where I saw that happen- you don't have to watch it, its too old for any sort of critique to be applicable

And another with a little better form

I would need to see you squat to get a better idea. When you say no leverage how does it feel like you are failing? Out of the bottom of the lift you need to lead with your head so your back and hips rise at the same rate.

Its hard to describe what I mean by no leverage. When I'm deadlifting I feel like I can drive my legs into the ground, like I can actively push the weight up. When I back squat, or even just now when I pretended like there was a bar on my back and dropped my thighs to parallel, I don't feel that. I can stand up, but I'm not really able to drive through the ground and contract my legs strongly

I know this doesn't mean a whole lot without a video. When I get around to recording my squat (probably the summer when I'm home) I 'll post it here, since a lot of the members are extremely knowledgeable in areas other than gymnastics.

[Nic Branson]

Go as deep as you're comfortable with good form. I watched the second video you put there. If your squats still look that way then your not driving into the bar on the way up. Once you get to your depth, think about driving your head and traps "back" into the bar the contracting your glutes as your drive. Your hips are not taking the load as they should on the way up, they are also still back when you get all the way up. Basically you're leaving all your powerful muscles out of the equation.

You also are using as fairly low bar position but not really using a low bar technique. For the way you're squatting move the bar up a couple of inches then try it.

One tweak at a time let me know how it feels. Correcting too much at once is never a good idea. One step at a time here.

[MCem222]

Ok. Thanks for the advice!