AWESOME PLANCHE / PLANche push-up strength

[Guest Ido Portal]

It is not a rare type of strength that allows him to hold this joint angle, but his lower body mass and the arch in his back.

The more open shoulder angle is a lot easier and he uses it because this is obviously his point of balance, and is effected by the placement of his center of gravity. Going on his fingers even further proves my claim, because he decreases the use of his wrist to create any force to help change the shoulder angle to a different one than the one dictated by your body structure. Even with a flat wrist, I do not believe it can be changed very much, great forces are in action here.

Alos, there are other issues that should be considered here, and also while starting to transition to a maltese training: (or moving up in the planche variations)

there is some change in the musculature in use when changing the shoulder angle to a closed one. I believe part of the problem in transitioning from all the different planche variations is this reason. You are slowly engaging new, small muscles into the equation and making new demands on the system. (inter muscular coordination, intra muscular coordination, strength, etc...)

[shiftedShapes]

It is not a rare type of strength that allows him to hold this joint angle, but his lower body mass and the arch in his back.

The more open shoulder angle is a lot easier and he uses it because this is obviously his point of balance, and is effected by the placement of his center of gravity. Going on his fingers even further proves my claim, because he decreases the use of his wrist to create any force to help change the shoulder angle to a different one than the one dictated by your body structure. Even with a flat wrist, I do not believe it can be changed very much, great forces are in action here.

Alos, there are other issues that should be considered here, and also while starting to transition to a maltese training: (or moving up in the planche variations)

there is some change in the musculature in use when changing the shoulder angle to a closed one. I believe part of the problem in transitioning from all the different planche variations is this reason. You are slowly engaging new, small muscles into the equation and making new demands on the system. (inter muscular coordination, intra muscular coordination, strength, etc...)

a more open shoulder angle is a more mechanically disadvantaged position. Polio in one leg means that one leg is probably lighter but the other is likely more muscular making for a wash. however, he is a specialist and as he doesn't require the leg power that gymnasts do for tumbling his legs overall might be less massive.As far as the. Now the fingertips are an interesting question, lengthening the body does mean that his center of gravity is moved further back, creating improved counterbalance, BUT it also means more torque on the shoulder. To figure out the net effect I think we would need a formula with trigonometric functions and torques, I'm too lazy to derive it, maybe someone else would be so inclined. My intuition though is that given the greater angle of arm from body it means more force on the shoulder not less, even when factoring in the change in the center of gravity. Not to mention the tremendous finger strength required to maintain this position.

Oh and that 16 second planche that rambo posted is very impressive. I've seen it before.

[kbryk]

I wish someone would close this topic, all angles have been covered, impressive planche by Junior, some details have been pointed out, we all should know what a planche is, we all should know what is impressive or not.

Hope Junior still works on his skills, he is working on a different level than gymnasts he is a bboy.

[powersnake]

Here is a post I found on powerathletes forum; planche and physics.

Steven (braindx) wrote about the angle in the planche.

http://www.powerathletesmag.com/wforum/ ... he+physics

[shiftedShapes]

Here is a post I found on powerathletes forum; planche and physics.

Steven (braindx) wrote about the angle in the planche.

http://www.powerathletesmag.com/wforum/ ... he+physics

Thanks!

I think he is right that the angle increasing makes the skill harder, but obviously the formula is incomplete as it does not reflect the impact of arm length or body length. A guy who is 5'6" 180 can planche a hell of a lot easier than somebody 6'0" 180 could.

[JoeSimo]

I've actually heard this argument alot from people. They will see a video of a tricker, breaker or other fitness enthusiast online and say they are stronger than even gymnasts. But lets be honest that just isnt the case. The reasons his planche are not as impressive have already been discussed. Another thing that always frustrated me about breakers is how you can kinda fudge your way through movements. If I am breaking and fall on my back or face its ok as long as I keep moving and pretend like I meant to do that. In gymnastics there is no way that would work.

One saying I've always been fond of I heard from A relative who used to be a collegiate gymnast back in the day. He told me once "If you are good at something you do the movement and make it look hard. If you are great at it you do the movement and make it look easy."

When I watch breakers, trickers and others do gymnastic type movements they make it look really difficult. Even Junior makes planche pushups seem difficult. He arches his back and his legs move around making me notice that much more that he is working hard to do them. When I see great gymnasts do the same movements it almost looks fake. Their bodies are perfectly straight and still.

I never trust what I see in "promo" videos anymore either. How many takes did they do? Is the footage sped up or slowed down? What other kind of tricks are used. I think I'll always find Circus Acrobatics and Gymnastics more impressive because its done live.

Just my opinion.

[David Picó García]

Here you have some famous planche pushups:

You can see that bboy angle of arms with the floor is higher because he has to less counterbalance the weight of the legs. As the legs go far from the rest of the body you see that you have to lean more as you see in Jovtchev. This is obviosly as much harder. The higher the legs even without kipping is the same as if you straddle them.

I saw on youtube a bboys video at americans got talent were one of the hasnt legs and danced with crutches. He also did planche pushups but you could se also that the angle was much more even than junior and the hands werent as close to the hips.

Also notice the relation of the butt with shoulders, as everybody here knows (because everybody has done in some degree the planche progression ) to put the butt at shoulder level is much more difficult than do the tuck planche with butt lower than shoulder. On the non gymnastic guys you can see the way they reach the butt-shoulder level is arching the back and with momentum of the legs (specially in the last pic).

And Jovtchev also did 10 reps :wink:

[shiftedShapes]

The reasons his planche are not as impressive have already been discussed.

The reasons offered so far were rebutted.

Even Junior makes planche pushups seem difficult. He arches his back and his legs move around making me notice that much more that he is working hard to do them. When I see great gymnasts do the same movements it almost looks fake. Their bodies are perfectly straight and still.

I recall seeing Paul O'neil doing planche push-ups in high school on a VHS tape (in a gorilla suit actually). I remember them being impressive but it's pretty hard to recall exactly how good they were. Jordan Jovchev is my only other reference point for gymnasts doing planche push-ups and as I already explained even though he is a world class ring man his push-ups were inferrior to Junior's. If you have seen footage of gymnasts doing planche push-ups that are as good or better than Junior's please post it.

[powersnake]

Well, it's hard to find a full planche pushups with a proper form, but here's a straddle version

http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu5ikO0UFjE&feature=related

This is a decent full planche performance. He's doing the pushups controlled, but he's still arching his back.

http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=oVRHHJUCRE4&translated=1

I believe to get the most of training, one should focus on the quality side.

That's why I think you first have to be able to hold a hollow full planche and than add the pushups.

[JoeSimo]

What about Yuri Van Gelder here. He does Maltese press to Planche. That is monumentally harder than a regular planche pushup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNfvlslU ... re=related

I also dont think the points mentioned before were clearly refuted. I think people made some very clear and logical points and you just dismissed them out of hand. I think I've yet to hear why they are wrong and what makes Juniors pushups superior to the strengths gymnasts exhibit. The only argument I heard was "youre wrong Im right". Though maybe I missed something and you could point it out to me again.

[David Picó García]

Yes, It's hard to find planche pushups on gymnasts because this is the easy way, you could see gymnasts doing them with straight arms (maltesse to planche). :wink:

[Gregor]

I personly never do planche push ups, I think they are a waist of time for gymnastics, beacuse you will not need this movement. I do it from maltese to planche with straight arms on rings (now with coach though, not yet alone) and we never try it with bend->muscles are working diffrent.

And yes with it's alot easier then with straight arms if you compare almost effortless. with bent arms you must be actualy strong just in position and du a push up, with straight arms it's completly diffrent story.

[shiftedShapes]

What about Yuri Van Gelder here. He does Maltese press to Planche. That is monumentally harder than a regular planche pushup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNfvlslU ... re=related

I agree maltese to planche is more challenging than a planche push-up, as are a lot of the ring combos.

I also dont think the points mentioned before were clearly refuted. I think people made some very clear and logical points and you just dismissed them out of hand. I think I've yet to hear why they are wrong and what makes Juniors pushups superior to the strengths gymnasts exhibit. The only argument I heard was "youre wrong Im right". Though maybe I missed something and you could point it out to me again.

If you can't be bothered to read my replies carefully once I don't see why I should take the time to post them a second time.

[JoeSimo]

No disrespect but I read through this entire thread 3 times. Seriously. I just didnt see a convincing argument there.

[rambo5501]

What about Yuri Van Gelder here. He does Maltese press to Planche. That is monumentally harder than a regular planche pushup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNfvlslU ... re=related

I agree maltese to planche is more challenging than a planche push-up, as are a lot of the ring combos.

I also dont think the points mentioned before were clearly refuted. I think people made some very clear and logical points and you just dismissed them out of hand. I think I've yet to hear why they are wrong and what makes Juniors pushups superior to the strengths gymnasts exhibit. The only argument I heard was "youre wrong Im right". Though maybe I missed something and you could point it out to me again.

If you can't be bothered to read my replies carefully once I don't see why I should take the time to post them a second time.

You responded some posts before that you read the angle differential. Well look at the 3 pictues again. Look at the angle of junior's and then the gymnast's one. I mean I think is worthless to debate this. Is like beating a dead horse.

shiftedShapes I'm 98% sure that you can't hold a planche. If you could then you would know the difference.

[JoeSimo]

SS, I know I havent trained with you guys in a rather long time. But judging from a recent video you put up your planche needs work. I noticed at 6:24 in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLEMqN-Za_U

You bend your arms and your back isnt flat. As mentioned if you can fix these and improve on your own planche you could more easily see where the difference lies.

[rambo5501]

SS, I know I havent trained with you guys in a rather long time. But judging from a recent video you put up your planche needs work. I noticed at 6:24 in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLEMqN-Za_U

You bend your arms and your back isnt flat. As mentioned if you can fix these and improve on your own planche you could more easily see where the difference lies.

JoeSimo Are you the friend of Rick?

http://www.youtube.com/user/JoeSimonsen

Is that your channel? If you are, then I must say that you are an inspiration my man. I think I have watched all your videos, and ricks too. Your flag holds, etc etc are amazing!!! Keep at it bro. I saw in one of your vids that you said that you are working on manna how is that coming along?

[shiftedShapes]

SS, I know I havent trained with you guys in a rather long time. But judging from a recent video you put up your planche needs work. I noticed at 6:24 in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLEMqN-Za_U

You bend your arms and your back isnt flat. As mentioned if you can fix these and improve on your own planche you could more easily see where the difference lies.

That is a crappy straddle planche, I can hold it flat with straight arms if I'm not too tired though.

My own progress with the Planche has nothing to do with my intellectual understanding of it though. I would have had an aweful hard time getting through physics if I had to personally experience every set of forces to solve equations.

[shiftedShapes]

Here you have some famous planche pushups:

You can see that bboy angle of arms with the floor is higher because he has to less counterbalance the weight of the legs. As the legs go far from the rest of the body you see that you have to lean more as you see in Jovtchev. This is obviosly as much harder. The higher the legs even without kipping is the same as if you straddle them.

I saw on youtube a bboys video at americans got talent were one of the hasnt legs and danced with crutches. He also did planche pushups but you could se also that the angle was much more even than junior and the hands werent as close to the hips.

Also notice the relation of the butt with shoulders, as everybody here knows (because everybody has done in some degree the planche progression ) to put the butt at shoulder level is much more difficult than do the tuck planche with butt lower than shoulder. On the non gymnastic guys you can see the way they reach the butt-shoulder level is arching the back and with momentum of the legs (specially in the last pic).

And Jovtchev also did 10 reps :wink:

Thanks for posting these pictures. If you look at JLissiah (forgot his actual name) you will see that his arm angle is about the same as Jovchevs even though his arch is greater. Junior has less arch than JLissiah but a much greater arm angle. The angle of the arm to the body is a function of shoulder strength, watch the video of the guy holding the planche for 16 seconds you will see that the arm angle steadily decreases as he becomes weaker, but even at the start he is nowhere close to Junior. Without knowing Junior's exact Bodyweight and distribution of mass vs. Jovchev's we can't really settle the question of which planche puts more strain on the shoulder. However, I'm glad we are past the point where some of you guys were trying to say that the open shoulder angle makes the planche easier

As far as jovchev's reps I would say that he did 0, because none of them moved the body as a unit through the full range of motion.

Oh and the guy on America's got talent really is amazing. His name is BBoy Lazy Legs Here is a vid of him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_QllHY3kQM

Unlike Junior he walks with crutches. So his lower body is probably extremely light. Also you should consider that his shoulders might be even stronger from using the crutches to get around all of the time. Indeed his planche probably is better than Junior's. He does a lot of crazy things like dropping from the crutches and catching himself in a planche push-up and doing typewriter pushups with both legs off the ground. What he shows though is that as the ratio of strength to body torque increases so does the angle of the arm to the body in the planche.

[shiftedShapes]

Actually I have been selling Junior short. I just watched another vid of him and he can planche WITOUHT ARCH and WITH a very OPEN ARM ANGLE.

watch around 1:05

A lot of the times he does not have this type of form. I think it's important to keep in mind that just as Jovchev is doing his planche push-ups as a warm-up and not trying to squeeze out perfect form. Junior is probably not focused on pointing toes and flattening out his arch, these things don't matter to BBoys.

[JoeSimo]

JoeSimo Are you the friend of Rick?

http://www.youtube.com/user/JoeSimonsen

Is that your channel? If you are, then I must say that you are an inspiration my man. I think I have watched all your videos, and ricks too. Your flag holds, etc etc are amazing!!! Keep at it bro. I saw in one of your vids that you said that you are working on manna how is that coming along?

Yeah thats my channel. I'm friends with rick. I've known him for years. We used to train at the same martial arts school. Glad you liked my flag videos. I love that move.

I've still been working on the manna. I can get up to like 45 degree angle now. I can really start to feel the push in my triceps and in my back. So, I think I am making some progress.

SS, being able to do the movement will certainly hep you understand it better. I know in the past I've thought I understood a movement well only to find out later I was completely wrong. Best example was with handstands. I used to think my handstand were fine and that there was nothing wrong with them. THen I went to train with a Russian Hand Balancing coach. Only when he taught me to do it right and I felt what that was like did I fully appreciate why I was wrong.

Sometimes we arnt the best judges of our own ability. Maybe you think you are doing it right, but you really arnt. For the longest time I thought my handstand was straight. Everytime my coach told me it wasnt I didnt understand what he meant, until that one "ah ha" moment. Then it all made sense to me. Maybe you think your planche is right, but it could be off.

Let me ask this question. Are you trying to do the planche like Junior or a gymnast?

[shiftedShapes]

Let me ask this question. Are you trying to do the planche like Junior or a gymnast?

Like a gymnast, I follow Coache's progressions because I don't have freak stength like Junior. I will probably never come close to him.

This guy is a specialist, all his does all day is planche variations that's why no generalist (read gymnast can touch him). His planche is on the same continuum as a gymnast:

frog stand->ball planche->adv tuck planche->straddle planche->planche (full planche)->open angle planche (Junior's Planche!)

[JoeSimo]

Whatever man, I dont have time to argue with you all day about this. I doubt it would do any good. Some high level gymnasts have come on here telling you why you are wrong and you still refuse to listen. If you want to think Junior is the end all be all of planches that fine. Sorry though you are wrong. Arching your body like that makes it easier plain and simple.

[shiftedShapes]

Whatever man, I dont have time to argue with you all day about this. I doubt it would do any good. Some high level gymnasts have come on here telling you why you are wrong and you still refuse to listen. If you want to think Junior is the end all be all of planches that fine. Sorry though you are wrong. Arching your body like that makes it easier plain and simple.

look at the video I posted on the last page...no arch in Junior's planche, sorry.

[JoeSimo]

Whatever... :roll: